Tribalism. The Good, The Bad, and the Other.

[The Emerald Legion]

One world government is not mythical. If anything we have already created it's foundations through the global economy, using English as the lingua franca, using the internet (e.g This very forum) to communicate with each other disregarding our national affiliations etc.

Of course there will be groups and organizations that will want to stop this kind of effort. In the scenario of one world government you mention, the government could stop said groups from ever taking an action. Real life governments have developed a myriad of methods to pacify a group of unruly people without outright killing them. You don't need military presence to do so.

There's always been international trade. Even so far back as the Middle Ages. There have always been translators. There has always been communication between nations. (Also, quite presumptuous of you to assume we all disregard our national affiliations.)

The issue is, those people must be in a minority. When the unruly people outnumber the government attempting to pacify them then it's the government that tends to get pacified.

[Kowani]

One world government is not mythical. If anything we have already created it's foundations through the global economy, using English as the lingua franca, using the internet (e.g This very forum) to communicate with each other disregarding our national affiliations etc.

Of course there will be groups and organizations that will want to stop this kind of effort. In the scenario of one world government you mention, the government could stop said groups from ever taking an action. Real life governments have developed a myriad of methods to pacify a group of unruly people without outright killing them. You don't need military presence to do so.

There's always been international trade. Even so far back as the Middle Ages. There have always been translators. There has always been communication between nations. (Also, quite presumptuous of you to assume we all disregard our national affiliations.)

And yet the degree of interdependence has never been greater, and that trend is unlikely to backslide. We are to see, within decades, perhaps a century, an intertwining of the global economy.

[The Emerald Legion]

There's always been international trade. Even so far back as the Middle Ages. There have always been translators. There has always been communication between nations. (Also, quite presumptuous of you to assume we all disregard our national affiliations.)

And yet the degree of interdependence has never been greater, and that trend is unlikely to backslide. We are to see, within decades, perhaps a century, an intertwining of the global economy.

I somehow doubt that.

[Hamstan]

I reject tribalism. I also reject current society. I'm also crazy, apparently...

[Kowani]

And yet the degree of interdependence has never been greater, and that trend is unlikely to backslide. We are to see, within decades, perhaps a century, an intertwining of the global economy.

I somehow doubt that.

I make predictions based on current trends, assuming that those trends stay the same. Perhaps it will take more than a century. Time moves slowly. But. Eventually, even the glacial pace of the world’s political and economic growth will push the world onto a path of convergence.

[Purpelia]

I somehow doubt that.

I make predictions based on current trends, assuming that those trends stay the same. Perhaps it will take more than a century.

That is a very dangerous assumption to make in that it relies on some very wonky things such as infinite economic growth, lack of market saturation in the developed world, continuing growth of the developing world to meet said infinite demand, continuing good political relations etc. etc. etc. And all of these are far from assured.

At the beginning of the last century (just prior to WW1 which ruined the world) someone making the same assumption would have concluded that in 2019:
- India would never possibly be able to seriously contest western skilled labor.
- China would continue to be poor, neglected and would likely have been carved up entirely into a number of colonies between the western powers, Russia and Japan. Definitively not become an economic superpower.
- The united states military would still be a token defense force that could barely hold off a Mexican bandit chief.
- Japan would likely become the dominant superpower in East Asia, not China.
- Communism would newer catch on.
- The Russian Empire would become an economic superpower like China is today.
etc. etc.

All reasonable assumptions to make if you look at the trends at the time. And yet...

And yet the degree of interdependence has never been greater, and that trend is unlikely to backslide. We are to see, within decades, perhaps a century, an intertwining of the global economy.

The global economy is not actually that much more interconnected than it was 100 years ago. Even back than you had the same economic ties with cheap labor from the 3r world supplying the rich west with cheap products. The only thing that was different was that said product were resources instead of finished goods. And you also had the same degree of big international trade as well. Nothing has changed much really aside from the roles getting a bit swapped around. Same thing in the 20's and 30's.

Hell, go back to the era of the Silk road and you'll see the same thing. The global economy is a global economy and it tries and succeeds in being global. That has not and newer will erase local cultures and traditions however. And if it did it would, in doing so, erase the very disparity in demand that keeps it going.

[Trollgaard]

I think Tribalism is all three. Its they way people evolved and lived for thousands and thousands of years. It cannot just go away with a snap of the fingers, despite some people's desire for it to do so, and despite tribalism having downsides.

This is just a personal example, so take it at that:

These events happened 13+ years ago when I was high school. I kid at school that I was not one of my favorite people (we had a history of giving each other shit) was jumped by some kids....I have forgotten where. And no, it wasn''t a violent school, but fights happened from time to time (like in every school).

Anyways, this really pissed me off as even though the kid who was jumped was not a close friend, he was still part of my school, my social circle (not closely, but still). Long story short, me and a group of other guys go out confront the dude who jumped this kid and put the fear of god into their hearts- and no, we didn't attack them. Yelled at em, told if they ever fucked with the dude again, or anyone we knew we wouldn't take kindly to it, if you will.

As far as I know those guys never fucked with anyone again, or at least not from our school.

I'm sure you guys have heard a phrase to the effect of "he may be an asshole, but he's OUR asshole". In that way, I view tribalism as good. It ties people together.

[New haven america]

I think Tribalism is all three. Its they way people evolved and lived for thousands and thousands of years. It cannot just go away with a snap of the fingers, despite some people's desire for it to do so, and despite tribalism having downsides.

This is just a personal example, so take it at that:

These events happened 13+ years ago when I was high school. I kid at school that I was not one of my favorite people (we had a history of giving each other shit) was jumped by some kids....I have forgotten where. And no, it wasn''t a violent school, but fights happened from time to time (like in every school).

Anyways, this really pissed me off as even though the kid who was jumped was not a close friend, he was still part of my school, my social circle (not closely, but still). Long story short, me and a group of other guys go out confront the dude who jumped this kid and put the fear of god into their hearts- and no, we didn't attack them. Yelled at em, told if they ever fucked with the dude again, or anyone we knew we wouldn't take kindly to it, if you will.

As far as I know those guys never fucked with anyone again, or at least not from our school.

I'm sure you guys have heard a phrase to the effect of "he may be an asshole, but he's OUR asshole". In that way, I view tribalism as good. It ties people together.

So a member of one tribe attacks and harms the member of another, which lead to the other tribe retaliating and causing harm to the original tribe.

Scale that up to nationwide level and you've just described basically every war in human history. Yet this is apparently a good thing...

[The Emerald Legion]

I think Tribalism is all three. Its they way people evolved and lived for thousands and thousands of years. It cannot just go away with a snap of the fingers, despite some people's desire for it to do so, and despite tribalism having downsides.

This is just a personal example, so take it at that:

These events happened 13+ years ago when I was high school. I kid at school that I was not one of my favorite people (we had a history of giving each other shit) was jumped by some kids....I have forgotten where. And no, it wasn''t a violent school, but fights happened from time to time (like in every school).

Anyways, this really pissed me off as even though the kid who was jumped was not a close friend, he was still part of my school, my social circle (not closely, but still). Long story short, me and a group of other guys go out confront the dude who jumped this kid and put the fear of god into their hearts- and no, we didn't attack them. Yelled at em, told if they ever fucked with the dude again, or anyone we knew we wouldn't take kindly to it, if you will.

As far as I know those guys never fucked with anyone again, or at least not from our school.

I'm sure you guys have heard a phrase to the effect of "he may be an asshole, but he's OUR asshole". In that way, I view tribalism as good. It ties people together.

So a member of one tribe attacks and harms the member of another, which lead to the other tribe retaliating and causing harm to the original tribe.

Scale that up to nationwide level and you've just described basically every war in human history. Yet this is apparently a good thing...

I mean. Yes. It's much better to have a war than to let some random jerks continue to randomly victimize your friends.

[Paliogia]

Tribalism has its goods and its bass. On one end, you have the promotion of competition, which leads to better economies, militaries, and better humans in general. On the other hand, you have the encouragement of war and a self-destructive nature. On one hand, you have the uniting of a people for the greater good. On the other, a seperatiom of groups of people due to warfare, regionalism, and xenophobia. It’s definitely not a perfect society, but it does has its benefits.

On the other hand, what if there was a way to separate the good and the bad of tribalism. Take the good out of competition and pair it with respect instead of war. Take the good of uniting people and pair it with cultural acceptance instead of cultural hate. Tribalism has been instituted for tens of thousands of years, maybe farther back for all that we know, so it would be incredibly hard to do, replacing something so indoctrinated in our blood, but hopefully it’s possible with more education and the preaching of acceptance.

[The Huskar Social Union]

I fucking despise tribalism, even if it might be part of human nature, the fucking thing is why my home is soo fucked.

[The Emerald Legion]

I fucking despise tribalism, even if it might be part of human nature, the fucking thing is why my home is soo fucked.

I thought that was England?

[The Huskar Social Union]

I fucking despise tribalism, even if it might be part of human nature, the fucking thing is why my home is soo fucked.

I thought that was England?

No its not as simple as that.


Everything in Northern Ireland comes down to identity, us vs them, green vs orange, catholic vs protestant, nationalist vs unionist. Its why there is just a deadlock over everything here and why we have had no government the last few years. Though thankfully non aligned political parties are winning more votes and more seats in the most recent elections, so hopefully it will change soon.

Yes England is a pretty big reason why all that shit exists in the first place (so is Scotland but they are almost never mentioned) but they are not the only reason. A lot of it is down to pure sectarianism and bigotry that was entrenched over the majority of NI's existence, made worse by one community having far better position in society over the other.

[Chestaan]

People, as children, are taught that they are part of a tribe of millions, tens of millions, even hundreds of millions, even over a billion.

Clearly it follows that it is impossible for people to learn to think of themselves as part of a single tribe comprising all people.

Incorrect. While ideals and identity can make larger allegiences possible, it doesn't mean they consider the entire nation their tribe. It means they consider the ideal of the nation as part of their tribe and that in and of itself can become a source of conflict.

So then why can't the ideal of the entire planet, or the entire human race be considered part of the tribe?

[The Emerald Legion]

Incorrect. While ideals and identity can make larger allegiences possible, it doesn't mean they consider the entire nation their tribe. It means they consider the ideal of the nation as part of their tribe and that in and of itself can become a source of conflict.

So then why can't the ideal of the entire planet, or the entire human race be considered part of the tribe?

Because it's too broad.

[Nakena]

I thought that was England?

No its not as simple as that.


Everything in Northern Ireland comes down to identity, us vs them, green vs orange, catholic vs protestant, nationalist vs unionist. Its why there is just a deadlock over everything here and why we have had no government the last few years. Though thankfully non aligned political parties are winning more votes and more seats in the most recent elections, so hopefully it will change soon.

Yes England is a pretty big reason why all that shit exists in the first place (so is Scotland but they are almost never mentioned) but they are not the only reason. A lot of it is down to pure sectarianism and bigotry that was entrenched over the majority of NI's existence, made worse by one community having far better position in society over the other.

Would any of that change if NI were to join Ireland?

[Molonia]

I believe the language barrier has more to do with the roadblocks toward globalism than tribalism.

[Nakena]

I believe the language barrier has more to do with the roadblocks toward globalism than tribalism.

Not really. Its more culture and exclusionism, seclusionism. (example: the francophones who, in my impression, tend stick to their own communities even on the interwebs)

Other than that it is one thing to talk on an internet forum and be all cozy and another one to live in the same country. We all have different exceptions in our everyday lifes that may not necessarily be obvious at first sight but become a thing when we're going to live in another country. Anyone who lived for extended periods aboard probably experienced this somehow, Some get better along with it, others less.

[Molonia]

Not really. Its more culture and exclusionism, seclusionism. (example: the francophones who, in my impression, tend stick to their own communities even on the interwebs)

Other than that it is one thing to talk on an internet forum and be all cozy and another one to live in the same country. We all have different exceptions in our everyday lifes that may not necessarily be obvious at first sight but become a thing when we're going to live in another country. Anyone who lived for extended periods aboard probably experienced this somehow, Some get better along with it, others less.

Francophones don't stick to their own communities, exhibit A: North and West Africans and Francophonic Caribs. For what reason other than the fact that they speak the same language do most citizens from said areas end up moving to France? And yes, I realize third-world conditions are a part of it.

[Nakena]

Not really. Its more culture and exclusionism, seclusionism. (example: the francophones who, in my impression, tend stick to their own communities even on the interwebs)

Other than that it is one thing to talk on an internet forum and be all cozy and another one to live in the same country. We all have different exceptions in our everyday lifes that may not necessarily be obvious at first sight but become a thing when we're going to live in another country. Anyone who lived for extended periods aboard probably experienced this somehow, Some get better along with it, others less.

Francophones don't stick to their own communities, exhibit A: North and West Africans and Francophonic Caribs. For what reason other than the fact that they speak the same language do most citizens from said areas end up moving to France? And yes, I realize third-world conditions are a part of it.

I meant specifically French and Quebecians.

[Chestaan]

So then why can't the ideal of the entire planet, or the entire human race be considered part of the tribe?

Because it's too broad.

A quarter of the world's population lives in China and they manage just fine to hold a Nation together. India only has slightly less people and again they are doing just fine.

[The Huskar Social Union]

No its not as simple as that.


Everything in Northern Ireland comes down to identity, us vs them, green vs orange, catholic vs protestant, nationalist vs unionist. Its why there is just a deadlock over everything here and why we have had no government the last few years. Though thankfully non aligned political parties are winning more votes and more seats in the most recent elections, so hopefully it will change soon.

Yes England is a pretty big reason why all that shit exists in the first place (so is Scotland but they are almost never mentioned) but they are not the only reason. A lot of it is down to pure sectarianism and bigotry that was entrenched over the majority of NI's existence, made worse by one community having far better position in society over the other.

Would any of that change if NI were to join Ireland?

No there would still be sectarianism, and NI voted to join the republic tomorrow there would be an immediate spike of sectarian attacks and issues, which would become worse once NI were to join the Republic.

Loyalists in NI have a siege mentality, and are just waiting to cause more shit, same with republicans. Now the issues would die down over time after that but they would happen, even in NI they are dying down more with each generation and i hope that continues. Though my home often disappoints me.

One big difference is Ireland is not going to treat the Unionist community like dogshit for 70 years and openly attack them in the streets.

[The South Falls]

Because it's too broad.

A quarter of the world's population lives in China and they manage just fine to hold a Nation together. India only has slightly less people and again they are doing just fine.

91 percent of China is Han Chinese, and they actively oppress almost all minority groups, so there's a tribe.

India has massive rifts between Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims, which have manifested in violence across the years, not to mention the present fights with china. Those are "tribes" that cant get along.

[The Emerald Legion]

Because it's too broad.

A quarter of the world's population lives in China and they manage just fine to hold a Nation together. India only has slightly less people and again they are doing just fine.

And indeed, there is still quite a lot of 'Other' to be had. Population is more or less irrelevant as long as there is an other. Though as you might notice China and India have quite a bit of civil disunity.

[Chestaan]

A quarter of the world's population lives in China and they manage just fine to hold a Nation together. India only has slightly less people and again they are doing just fine.

And indeed, there is still quite a lot of 'Other' to be had. Population is more or less irrelevant as long as there is an other. Though as you might notice China and India have quite a bit of civil disunity.

They have civil disunity but they are still all part of the same country. Arguing against globalism because "it's too broad" makes no sense when massive nations with over a billion people exist. If a nation of over a billion exists then why not two billion? Or seven?