Talks With Taliban Hopeful

[Khataiy]

What would be a legal invasion, then? Do all participants have to sign a waiver?

One done in either self defence, or with the authorisation of the UN general Assembly.

Other countries approving other countries' wars that sounds good.

[Senkaku]

One done in either self defence, or with the authorisation of the UN general Assembly.

Other countries approving other countries' wars that sounds good.

Well, it's what we decided on. Probably better than just letting the monkeys run the zoo.

An invasion authorized by the UN Security Council. That would be a legal invasion.

So, nothing.

No? What do you think Iraq Round One and Korea were?

[Fartsniffage]

Then for all intents and purposes they don't care.

Hence why they prefer to bomb innocent people in government-controlled cities like Kabul or Ghazni.

Their spokesman has said the Taliban wants girls only schools, I don't doubt that and that they oppose schools funded by and supported by the Afghan government and Occupational forces. They don't deny it they are open about their beliefs on this, I mean they obviously don't think they're doing something wrong they believe they are correcting perceived wrongs against their country and community. The overall leadership is corrupt, this is a fact but at the same time they still reconcile what they are doing internally as protecting their country. People here are also ignoring the Afghan tribes and their interests here, if the tribes are happy its the same in Arab countries everyone will be happy, but the Taliban has tight control over the Pashtuns whereas the government is dominated by Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazaras, the Taliban has Uzbeks, Hazaras and Tajiks in their ranks as well, but they were born out the Pashtun community, their strongholds are in Pashtun lands and the Pashtuns don't want to be governed or dominated by other races.

It'd be like if you went into a black community in the south and appointed white people from the north to control the community and make policies there and vice versa it obviously is an issue. Neither the Taliban or Afghan government want a Balkanized state either but the demographics aren't helping, the Taliban has better PR with the Pashtun community which is huge in Afghanistan than the overall government.

Then why did they put 16 IEDs in girls schools?

[Vetalia]

No? What do you think Iraq Round One and Korea were?

You know you're fucked when the permanent members of the Security Council vote unanimously to kick your ass.

[Senkaku]

Then for all intents and purposes they don't care.

Hence why they prefer to bomb innocent people in government-controlled cities like Kabul or Ghazni.

Their spokesman has said the Taliban wants girls only schools, I don't doubt that

Given their repeated bombings and the policies they implemented when they were in power, I kinda do.

and that they oppose schools funded by and supported by the Afghan government and Occupational forces.

Which poses a bit of a problem, eh?

They don't deny it they are open about their beliefs on this,

Being open about being terrible doesn't make you less terrible. It just makes it harder for everyone else to deny that you're terrible.

I mean they obviously don't think they're doing something wrong they believe they are correcting perceived wrongs against their country and community. The overall leadership is corrupt, this is a fact but at the same time they still reconcile what they are doing internally as protecting their country.

You sound like an apologist for the Nazis in like 1937 or something lol

People here are also ignoring the Afghan tribes and their interests here, if the tribes are happy its the same in Arab countries everyone will be happy, but the Taliban has tight control over the Pashtuns whereas the government is dominated by Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazaras, the Taliban has Uzbeks, Hazaras and Tajiks in their ranks as well, but they were born out the Pashtun community, their strongholds are in Pashtun lands and the Pashtuns don't want to be governed or dominated by other races.

It'd be like if you went into a black community in the south and appointed white people from the north to control the community and make policies there and vice versa it obviously is an issue. Neither the Taliban or Afghan government want a Balkanized state either but the demographics aren't helping, the Taliban has better PR with the Pashtun community which is huge in Afghanistan than the overall government.

I don't know what any of this has to do with the Taliban being evil or not and the value or lack thereof of these talks. But good job talking down to us.

[Senkaku]

No? What do you think Iraq Round One and Korea were?

You know you're fucked when the permanent members of the Security Council vote unanimously to kick your ass.

Tbf, Korea only happened bc the USSR was boycotting in the biggest self-own of diplomatic history, and China technically did not vote yes on Iraq 1, they (symbolically) abstained, since they had their whole principle of non-interference that they used to take semi-seriously lol

But yes, when everyone wants to kill you, you're probs in deep shit. And it's probably good to only kill people when absolutely everyone agrees they deserve it, as opposed to just murdering folks whenever one feels like it regardless of other people's concerns.

[Khataiy]

Their spokesman has said the Taliban wants girls only schools, I don't doubt that and that they oppose schools funded by and supported by the Afghan government and Occupational forces. They don't deny it they are open about their beliefs on this, I mean they obviously don't think they're doing something wrong they believe they are correcting perceived wrongs against their country and community. The overall leadership is corrupt, this is a fact but at the same time they still reconcile what they are doing internally as protecting their country. People here are also ignoring the Afghan tribes and their interests here, if the tribes are happy its the same in Arab countries everyone will be happy, but the Taliban has tight control over the Pashtuns whereas the government is dominated by Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazaras, the Taliban has Uzbeks, Hazaras and Tajiks in their ranks as well, but they were born out the Pashtun community, their strongholds are in Pashtun lands and the Pashtuns don't want to be governed or dominated by other races.

It'd be like if you went into a black community in the south and appointed white people from the north to control the community and make policies there and vice versa it obviously is an issue. Neither the Taliban or Afghan government want a Balkanized state either but the demographics aren't helping, the Taliban has better PR with the Pashtun community which is huge in Afghanistan than the overall government.

Then why did they put 16 IEDs in girls schools?

I'm not a Taliban members, official or supporter, nor am I even Afghan, I don't know why they did there's probably a reason for it there's probably people who opposed doing it in the Taliban there was probably someone pushing for it, there's a lot of different factors into why, it could have been a student, or students or staff had links to the government or military, it could have been they belonged to a rival ethnic group, it could have been they suspected the site was being used by the military or intelligence apparatus of the government or coalition there's a lot to consider here other than "look its a school lets attack it."

And this isn't why the US opposed the Taliban, Tulsi Gabbard pointed this out during the debates, the US declared war solely because they refused to hand over Bin Laden this is a fact just like the way the US didn't declare war on Nazi Germany for its camps all of this stuff is coming out just to demonize the enemy, which is common and not surprising at all anything the Taliban does could be perceived as bad their trucks probably create a lot of pollution too, the US wants out and the fact of the matter is the US doesn't care about half of this crap but will point it out as along as it is useful to discrediting the enemy, the Taliban they release videos weekly called "Enemy Savagery in X province" and they go on saying they bombed schools and houses and the same thing, and in Afghanistan its very likely this same discussion is going on right now about the occupational forces and the government how they bombed a ton of schools and killed old people.

[Conserative Morality]

The Taliban are scum. Remember the Lion of Panjshir! Remember his sacrifice! And remember their duplicity!

[Washington Resistance Army]

We should have gone total war and destroyed the Taliban entirely.

[Khataiy]

The Taliban are scum. Remember the Lion of Panjshir! Remember his sacrifice! And remember their duplicity!

He was an ally of the Taliban early on he didn't want to fight them and multiple times tried to make peace with them, Abdullah Azzam even called him the Lion of Pnajshir. He was in their same boat just like a majority of the Northern Alliance.

---

With United Nations support, most Afghan political parties decided to appoint a legitimate national government to succeed communist rule, through an elite settlement.[51][52] While the external Afghan party leaders were residing in Peshawar, the military situation around Kabul involving the internal commanders was tense. A 1991 UN peace process brought about some negotiations, but the attempted elite settlement did not develop.[52] In April 1992, resistance leaders in Peshawar tried to negotiate a settlement. Massoud supported the Peshawar process of establishing a broad coalition government inclusive of all resistance parties, but Hekmatyar sought to become the sole ruler of Afghanistan, stating, "In our country coalition government is impossible because, this way or another, it is going to be weak and incapable of stabilizing the situation in Afghanistan."[53]

Massoud wrote:

All the parties had participated in the war, in jihad in Afghanistan, so they had to have their share in the government, and in the formation of the government. Afghanistan is made up of different nationalities. We were worried about a national conflict between different tribes and different nationalities. In order to give everybody their own rights and also to avoid bloodshed in Kabul, we left the word to the parties so they should decide about the country as a whole. We talked about it for a temporary stage and then after that the ground should be prepared for a general election.[54]

A recorded radio communication between the two leaders showed the divide as Massoud asked Hekmatyar:

The Kabul regime is ready to surrender, so instead of the fighting we should gather. ... The leaders are meeting in Peshawar. ... The troops should not enter Kabul, they should enter later on as part of the government.

Hekmatyar's response:

We will march into Kabul with our naked sword. No one can stop us. ... Why should we meet the leaders?" Massoud answered: "It seems to me that you don't want to join the leaders in Peshawar nor stop your threat, and you are planning to enter Kabul ... in that case I must defend the people.

[55]

At that point Osama bin Laden, trying to mediate, urged Hekmatyar to "go back with your brothers" and to accept a compromise. Bin Laden reportedly "hated Ahmad Shah Massoud".[56] Bin Laden was involved in ideological and personal disputes with Massoud[57] and had sided with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar against Massoud in the inner-Afghan conflict since the late 1980s.[58] But Hekmatyar refused to accept a compromise, confident that he would be able to gain sole power in Afghanistan.[59]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Sha ... ment_(1992)

[The New California Republic]

We should have gone total war and destroyed the Taliban entirely.

Again we kinda did:

I remember watching the bombing of the Taliban mountain strongholds by the B-52 bombers in 2001. They should have kept that shit going.

But that strategy was only very brief. It was more to show the folks at home in a very spectacular manner that something was being done about 9/11.

[Conserative Morality]

He was an ally of the Taliban early on he didn't want to fight them and multiple times tried to make peace with them, Abdullah Azzam even called him the Lion of Pnajshir. He was in their same boat just like a majority of the Northern Alliance.

---

With United Nations support, most Afghan political parties decided to appoint a legitimate national government to succeed communist rule, through an elite settlement.[51][52] While the external Afghan party leaders were residing in Peshawar, the military situation around Kabul involving the internal commanders was tense. A 1991 UN peace process brought about some negotiations, but the attempted elite settlement did not develop.[52] In April 1992, resistance leaders in Peshawar tried to negotiate a settlement. Massoud supported the Peshawar process of establishing a broad coalition government inclusive of all resistance parties, but Hekmatyar sought to become the sole ruler of Afghanistan, stating, "In our country coalition government is impossible because, this way or another, it is going to be weak and incapable of stabilizing the situation in Afghanistan."[53]

Massoud wrote:

All the parties had participated in the war, in jihad in Afghanistan, so they had to have their share in the government, and in the formation of the government. Afghanistan is made up of different nationalities. We were worried about a national conflict between different tribes and different nationalities. In order to give everybody their own rights and also to avoid bloodshed in Kabul, we left the word to the parties so they should decide about the country as a whole. We talked about it for a temporary stage and then after that the ground should be prepared for a general election.[54]

A recorded radio communication between the two leaders showed the divide as Massoud asked Hekmatyar:

The Kabul regime is ready to surrender, so instead of the fighting we should gather. ... The leaders are meeting in Peshawar. ... The troops should not enter Kabul, they should enter later on as part of the government.

Hekmatyar's response:

We will march into Kabul with our naked sword. No one can stop us. ... Why should we meet the leaders?" Massoud answered: "It seems to me that you don't want to join the leaders in Peshawar nor stop your threat, and you are planning to enter Kabul ... in that case I must defend the people.

[55]

At that point Osama bin Laden, trying to mediate, urged Hekmatyar to "go back with your brothers" and to accept a compromise. Bin Laden reportedly "hated Ahmad Shah Massoud".[56] Bin Laden was involved in ideological and personal disputes with Massoud[57] and had sided with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar against Massoud in the inner-Afghan conflict since the late 1980s.[58] But Hekmatyar refused to accept a compromise, confident that he would be able to gain sole power in Afghanistan.[59]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Sha ... ment_(1992)

>> citing a mujahideen who died in '89 as proof that Massoud worked with the Taliban
>> ignoring that the Pakistan-born Taliban movement didn't arise until '94
>> ignoring the fact that the Northern Alliance only formed out of desperation to fight a common foe - the Taliban

Taliban apologists will never reclaim history; the truth is stronger than any of your lies.

[Khataiy]

He was an ally of the Taliban early on he didn't want to fight them and multiple times tried to make peace with them, Abdullah Azzam even called him the Lion of Pnajshir. He was in their same boat just like a majority of the Northern Alliance.

---

>> citing a mujahideen who died in '89 as proof that Massoud worked with the Taliban
>> ignoring that the Pakistan-born Taliban movement didn't arise until '94
>> ignoring the fact that the Northern Alliance only formed out of desperation to fight a common foe - the Taliban

Taliban apologists will never reclaim history; the truth is stronger than any of your lies.

In fact the Taliban ended up fighting people the CIA had funded.

The CIA funded a wide array of people some went on to form the Taliban others joined the Northern Alliance, but neither faction existed during the Soviet occupation there was a lot of infighting, and different shifting alliances the US sent arms to Pakistan along with advisors and anyone who showed up willing to fight was armed and trained no questions asked by the CIA and ISI. The CIA and ISI collaborated with Chinese and Iranian intelligence as well during this period there were no background checks or anything like that, they didn't really care. But yes undoubtedly groups the CIA and Iran funded went on to form the NA, while ISI kept funding elements that became the Taliban and China just gave up all together.

Nice try bro

[Scomagia]

We should have gone total war and destroyed the Taliban entirely.

You're goddamn right.

[Senkaku]

We should have gone total war and destroyed the Taliban entirely.

come on lol I don't like them but Afghanistan is really not a vital enough US interest or a big enough human rights issue to be worth total war-- if we're going to start crusading for liberty full-time, we gotta start by taking down our biggest enemies before they get wise to us and arm up (so put the Chinese, Russians, Norks, Iranians, Saudis, Pakistanis, Turks, Egyptians, and Venezuelans on their back first, and then move on to smaller countries like Afghanistan or the various African dictatorships or whatever)

[Washington Resistance Army]

We should have gone total war and destroyed the Taliban entirely.

Again we kinda did:

I remember watching the bombing of the Taliban mountain strongholds by the B-52 bombers in 2001. They should have kept that shit going.

But that strategy was only very brief. It was more to show the folks at home in a very spectacular manner that something was being done about 9/11.

Your war isn't total enough if your enemy still exists more than a decade later.

[Washington Resistance Army]

We should have gone total war and destroyed the Taliban entirely.

come on lol I don't like them but Afghanistan is really not a vital enough US interest or a big enough human rights issue to be worth total war-- if we're going to start crusading for liberty full-time, we gotta start by taking down our biggest enemies before they get wise to us and arm up (so put the Chinese, Russians, Norks, Iranians, Saudis, Pakistanis, Turks, Egyptians, and Venezuelans on their back first, and then move on to smaller countries like Afghanistan or the various African dictatorships or whatever)

Not even fam, do you how vast Afghanistans mineral base is? We could make trillions long term.

[Conserative Morality]

>> citing a mujahideen who died in '89 as proof that Massoud worked with the Taliban
>> ignoring that the Pakistan-born Taliban movement didn't arise until '94
>> ignoring the fact that the Northern Alliance only formed out of desperation to fight a common foe - the Taliban

Taliban apologists will never reclaim history; the truth is stronger than any of your lies.

The CIA funded a wide array of people some went on to form the Taliban others joined the Northern Alliance, but neither faction existed during the Soviet occupation there was a lot of infighting, and different shifting alliances the US sent arms to Pakistan along with advisors and anyone who showed up willing to fight was armed and trained no questions asked by the CIA and ISI. The CIA and ISI collaborated with Chinese and Iranian intelligence as well during this period there were no background checks or anything like that, they didn't really care. But yes undoubtedly groups the CIA and Iran funded went on to form the NA, while ISI kept funding elements that became the Taliban and China just gave up all together.

Nice try bro

>> literally importing huge amounts of radical students from Pakistan is how a native movement is made

lol

It was apologists like you who killed Massoud.

[Conserative Morality]

Again we kinda did:

But that strategy was only very brief. It was more to show the folks at home in a very spectacular manner that something was being done about 9/11.

Your war isn't total enough if your enemy still exists more than a decade later.

We came close. We had them in the low triple digits at one point. Got distracted by Iraq, though, and they made a comeback.

If only we had spent the time to finish those vermin.

[Vetalia]

Your war isn't total enough if your enemy still exists more than a decade later.

Going on almost 20 years now...the next generation of Taliban supporters are adults now. Maybe the question to ask is why so many Afghanis are such strong supporters of the Taliban?

[Khataiy]

Nice try bro

>> literally importing huge amounts of radical students from Pakistan is how a native movement is made

lol

It was apologists like you who killed Massoud.

I have nothing against him but its simply a fact he collaborated with Taliban elements and tried to avoid a conflict with them to form a power-sharing government between Hezb-I-Islami and supporting elements that later formed the Taliban.

[Senkaku]

Again we kinda did:

But that strategy was only very brief. It was more to show the folks at home in a very spectacular manner that something was being done about 9/11.

Your war isn't total enough if your enemy still exists more than a decade later.

Not everything is worth mobilizing for total war (or half-assing it for a decade). Whether we're playing a hard-nosed Machiavellian game for America's interests or trying to defend liberty and human rights everywhere or whatever, Afghanistan clearly is not going well and was not worth this much trouble

[Senkaku]

Your war isn't total enough if your enemy still exists more than a decade later.

Going on almost 20 years now...the next generation of Taliban supporters are adults now. Maybe the question to ask is why so many Afghanis are such strong supporters of the Taliban?

Because foreign occupations are easy targets for slick propaganda apparatuses that are supported by many traditional authority figures and structures in young people's lives. It's not because they're an inferior race or whatever you're driving at, thanks.

Also I believe Afghan is the people and Afghani is the money? Could be wrong about that butttt

[The New California Republic]

Again we kinda did:

But that strategy was only very brief. It was more to show the folks at home in a very spectacular manner that something was being done about 9/11.

Your war isn't total enough if your enemy still exists more than a decade later.

If the level of American bombing that was seen in 2001 had been kept going for several years, then I doubt the Taliban would exist as a coherent fighting force today.

[Conserative Morality]

Not everything is worth mobilizing for total war (or half-assing it for a decade). Whether we're playing a hard-nosed Machiavellian game for America's interests or trying to defend liberty and human rights everywhere or whatever, Afghanistan clearly is not going well and was not worth this much trouble

You think somebody in the Pentagon's gonna read it and come after me? Shit no. I'm a necessary evil. They want me here - they're glad I'm here. Because if I wasn't, they might have to come try to stem the tide. It will be thankless and worthless, and once the bodies started coming home in bags, they're screwed. A dead 23-year-old from Iowa gets more air time than the death of fifty-thousand people he gave his life to protect.