Should Slavery/Indentured Servitude be brought back?

[Nakena]

And this has been verified false, no?

Relevance? I see you trying to move that goal-post.

Yeah its getting old by now.

[Diopolis]

For starters, they constitute part of Islam, which is a lie.

Opinion aside, if you're gonna talk about a religious teaching then you use the religion's book(s). Islamic slavery has these teachings based on what the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah say. Whether you believe in them or not doesn't negate their teachings of what those books say.

I'm saying that I'll trust the caliphs and imams of societies which practiced slavery over a random internet yahoo with a proclivity towards purity tests on what Islamic slavery actually looks and acts like.
I have the same issue with fellow Catholics who attempt the same maneuver to defend slavery.

See above.

Except, you don't get to say that. Not unless you want to argue that every islamic cleric before slavery went out of style, and the majority after slavery went out of style, were/are wrong.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Which is effed up and illegal.

What happens if a Muslim slave master kills a non-muslim slave? Both spiritually and physically I mean. Does the slave go to Jannah if they were a good person?

What do you mean by "killing spiritually"? As to the question, idk.

[Grenartia]

The argument was that slaves in the American South had a better standard of living and quality of life than they would have had if they lived in Africa.

And this has been verified false, no?

Whether or not it is true is irrelevant compared to the fact that they were literally considered property and treated worse than most farm animals.

[Neanderthaland]

How dare you judge Chattel Slavery by what Masters in Louisiana did? Instead you should only judge it by the propaganda they wrote about slavery!

Well, what rules are they referring to about treating slaves?

Oh, I'm sure I could dig up all kinds of gems about a Master being firm and fair like a father to their slaves. But I don't want to.

Having "nice" slavery is pointless if it's never actually nice. And Islamic slavery - while marginally better than chattel slavery - has never been nice. Ironically the people who practiced it the worst (the Ottomans) were the best about it, but they still weren't nice. Or, at least, they were wildly inconstant about being nice.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Opinion aside, if you're gonna talk about a religious teaching then you use the religion's book(s). Islamic slavery has these teachings based on what the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah say. Whether you believe in them or not doesn't negate their teachings of what those books say.

See above.

Except, you don't get to say that. Not unless you want to argue that every islamic cleric before slavery went out of style, and the majority after slavery went out of style, were/are wrong.

What? What Muslim Islamic scholars advocated mistreatment of slaves based on the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah?

[Diopolis]

Which is effed up and illegal.

But yet, nothing and no one stopped them.

And the same thing will happen again if you succeed in legalizing ""Islamic"" slavery.

And Islamic clergy of the day were more than happy to either condone such behavior or find loopholes to allow it.

[Greater Cesnica]

What happens if a Muslim slave master kills a non-muslim slave? Both spiritually and physically I mean. Does the slave go to Jannah if they were a good person?

What do you mean by "killing spiritually"? As to the question, idk.

No I meant spiritual and physical consequences.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Well, what rules are they referring to about treating slaves?

Oh, I'm sure I could dig up all kinds of gems about a Master being firm and fair like a father to their slaves. But I don't want to.

Having "nice" slavery is pointless if it's never actually nice. And Islamic slavery - while marginally better than chattel slavery - has never been nice. Ironically the people who practiced it the worst (the Ottomans) were the best about it, but they still weren't nice. Or, at least, they were wildly inconstant about being nice.

I don’t get the “well they were nice slave owners” argument
Like yeah I keep a thirteen year old locked in a cell and force her to do sexual acts but it’s not like I beat her or anything

[Springfeal]

Except, you don't get to say that. Not unless you want to argue that every islamic cleric before slavery went out of style, and the majority after slavery went out of style, were/are wrong.

What? What Muslim Islamic scholars advocated mistreatment of slaves based on the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah?

Raping female slaves is inherently a mistreatment.

[Greater Cesnica]

Oh, I'm sure I could dig up all kinds of gems about a Master being firm and fair like a father to their slaves. But I don't want to.

Having "nice" slavery is pointless if it's never actually nice. And Islamic slavery - while marginally better than chattel slavery - has never been nice. Ironically the people who practiced it the worst (the Ottomans) were the best about it, but they still weren't nice. Or, at least, they were wildly inconstant about being nice.

I don’t get the “well they were nice slave owners” argument
Like yeah I keep a thirteen year old locked in a cell and force her to do sexual acts but it’s not like I beat her or anything

Sponsored by the Islamic State™

[Internationalist Bastard]

I don’t get the “well they were nice slave owners” argument
Like yeah I keep a thirteen year old locked in a cell and force her to do sexual acts but it’s not like I beat her or anything

Sponsored by the Islamic State™

Sponsored by way too many people since underage sex trafficking is one the main forms of slavery in the modern day

[Vetalia]

You know the roblox death sound? My eardrums just got ruptured by the biggest one in history when i read this

Everyone advocating slavery, indentured servitude, authoritarian government, etc. always thinks they're going to be the man on top leading the SS for the Fuhrer, whipping the slaves or commanding the Red Army but the truth is every time you're going to be at the bottom of the heap. Just look at what happened to the Old Bolsheviks in the Workers' Paradise.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Because random internet person said so.


I think I just had a stroke trying to understand this nonsense.

This may be the closest I've ever come to seeing someone unironically defend "Ignorance is Strength."....and that disturbs me.

Ignorance is not strength, you misunderstand my meaning. I'm trying to say little knowledge is bad, some knowledge is good/bad(depends on what it is honestly that part is a coin flip), more knowledge is bad(where those atheists rounded up are as they know a lot but there are holes they don't know), more-more knowledge is good(where they understand more clearly).

Also you can't say how much knowledge in that comparison you have. Nor can I. I'm well read on psychology of religion-acknowledging the traditional consideration of irony by atheists and others who disagree-and history relating to politics and how it changed religion.



Also for slavery, would serfs be considered slaves?

Essentially expert level.

I believe common agreement is that serfdom is a form of slavery yes

[Greater Cesnica]

Sponsored by the Islamic State™

Sponsored by way too many people since underage sex trafficking is one the main forms of slavery in the modern day

Side note: How the fuck does one get off on children? (Unless you're also underage)

[Genivaria]

Ignorance is not strength, you misunderstand my meaning. I'm trying to say little knowledge is bad, some knowledge is good/bad(depends on what it is honestly that part is a coin flip), more knowledge is bad(where those atheists rounded up are as they know a lot but there are holes they don't know), more-more knowledge is good(where they understand more clearly).

Also you can't say how much knowledge in that comparison you have. Nor can I. I'm well read on psychology of religion-acknowledging the traditional consideration of irony by atheists and others who disagree-and history relating to politics and how it changed religion.



Also for slavery, would serfs be considered slaves?

Essentially expert level.

I believe common agreement is that serfdom is a form of slavery yes

The way I see it serfdom is basically slavery where instead of being tied to a person you're tied to a plot of land.

[Internationalist Bastard]

You know the roblox death sound? My eardrums just got ruptured by the biggest one in history when i read this

Everyone advocating slavery, indentured servitude, authoritarian government, etc. always thinks they're going to be the man on top leading the SS for the Fuhrer, whipping the slaves or commanding the Red Army but the truth is every time you're going to be at the bottom of the heap. Just look at what happened to the Old Bolsheviks in the Workers' Paradise.

Thing is they usually believe it’s some minority that should be enslaved and clearly not them

[Greater Cesnica]

Everyone advocating slavery, indentured servitude, authoritarian government, etc. always thinks they're going to be the man on top leading the SS for the Fuhrer, whipping the slaves or commanding the Red Army but the truth is every time you're going to be at the bottom of the heap. Just look at what happened to the Old Bolsheviks in the Workers' Paradise.

Thing is they usually believe it’s some minority that should be enslaved and clearly not them

By believing one group is worse or inferior to another you get the conditions for human atrocities.

[Pacomia]

I barely meet an seriously religious people. I know some religious people, but nobody is trying to push their religion on anyone else. That might be partially why religion holds the same importance to me as vegetarianism- fine, you can do it, but don't make the rest of us do it. We like meat/atheism.

Maybe because I happen to live in one of my country's least religious city.

[Plzen]

Essentially, there is no logical counter-argument you can make against “a text from antiquity says so.” Two sides starting from a fundamentally different set of premises will never reach agreement.

Utilitarian considerations and the principles of liberal democracy, in this case, are both fundamentally different sets of premises than religious faith.

[Vetalia]

Thing is they usually believe it’s some minority that should be enslaved and clearly not them

It's always someone below you as you could never, ever fall into such deplorable straits.

[Nova Cyberia]

Yes it is. Slavery is pretty much universally recognized as a crime against humanity.

I don't care about international nor national law.

You can not care about it all you want. But legally, it's a crime.

So yes, you support a fucking crime.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

What do you mean by "killing spiritually"? As to the question, idk.

No I meant spiritual and physical consequences.

Well killing a slave unjustly is Haraam, so that's a sin on master. As for the Shari'ah punishment: https://sunnah.com/urn/416290 (there's a bunch more but it's a lot, I'll look for more later)

[Greater Carloso]

The enslavement of innocent people is objectively morally abhorrent, obviously enough. Economically, slavery is fundamentally obsolete in industrialised countries with the advent of robotics etc., and in a capitalist economy, one needs motivated workers to survive and beat your competitors. Obviously, I guess this is not the case in non-industrialised backwaters like Mauritania.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with penal labour/slavery. It is a fitting punishment for criminal convicts.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

What? What Muslim Islamic scholars advocated mistreatment of slaves based on the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah?

Raping female slaves is inherently a mistreatment.

This doesn't answer my question