Should Slavery/Indentured Servitude be brought back?

[Kernen]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that part. It must be upheld upon the request.

See, thats a formality that is dispositive. Even an obligation to say yes still makes it contingent on making the request and receiving the answer. It's slavery.

I know, I haven't looked what the guidelines are

That's fair. Religious law is more convoluted than real law. I don't expect a perfect recitation offhand.

Either way it's still slavery imo

Under the formalities you described, yes. Which makes it harmful.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Yes, I know it's still slavery. But to Kernen it isn't.

Its not hard. The hallmark of slavery is the complete inability of the slave to end the state of servitude at will. Everything else is just slavery with extra steps.

Well they're forced into it (in Al-Islam only POWs can be enslaved) and gotta work until either they free themselves or are freed. Does that not count as slavery?

Its inherent in the competing rights. Just because you want to slap your god's label on it doesn't change the nature of the relationship.

1: Allah SWT is not my god. I belong to Allah SWT, not the other way around.
2: What's this gotta do with "slapping labels"?
3: So you don't think Islamic slavery is actually slavery?

[Grenartia]

Is anyone surprised its the forum's resident Nazi asking this question?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I'm confused Kernen. Are you saying that Islamic slavery isn't actually slavery or that it is actually slavery?

[Diopolis]

Its not hard. The hallmark of slavery is the complete inability of the slave to end the state of servitude at will. Everything else is just slavery with extra steps.

Well they're forced into it (in Al-Islam only POWs can be enslaved) and gotta work until either they free themselves or are freed. Does that not count as slavery?

That's fair to point out, but it's relevant to know that Islamic law has a somewhat more expansive definition of POW than everyone else.

[Grenartia]

Its not hard. The hallmark of slavery is the complete inability of the slave to end the state of servitude at will. Everything else is just slavery with extra steps.

Well they're forced into it (in Al-Islam only POWs can be enslaved) and gotta work until either they free themselves or are freed. Does that not count as slavery?

Ugh, you at this bullshit again? And fucking yes, it counts.

Its inherent in the competing rights. Just because you want to slap your god's label on it doesn't change the nature of the relationship.

1: Allah SWT is not my god. I belong to Allah SWT, not the other way around.
2: What's this gotta do with "slapping labels"?
3: So you don't think Islamic slavery is actually slavery?

Its actually slavery. Using "Islamic" as a modifier doesn't make it any better.

[Kernen]

I'm confused Kernen. Are you saying that Islamic slavery isn't actually slavery or that it is actually slavery?

I had to to amend my analysis as you dribbled out additional information.

As of now, I have the following information:

islamic slavery is revocable upon the following circumstances:

The agent pays a predetermined price,
The agent accomplishes a subjective goal at the discretion of the principle, or
The agent requests freedom *and is granted freedom by the principle.*

Because none of those are immediately and unconditionally revocable, the agent lacks the power to unilaterally revoke the relationship, and it is therefore slavery.

Bear in mind that I have placed an asterisk next to the information I got after my first assessment, which is the source of the confusion.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Well they're forced into it (in Al-Islam only POWs can be enslaved) and gotta work until either they free themselves or are freed. Does that not count as slavery?

That's fair to point out, but it's relevant to know that Islamic law has a somewhat more expansive definition of POW than everyone else.

POW = Prisoner of War

[United Muscovite Nations]

That's fair to point out, but it's relevant to know that Islamic law has a somewhat more expansive definition of POW than everyone else.

POW = Prisoner of War

The Islamic definition includes non-combatants.

[Diopolis]

That's fair to point out, but it's relevant to know that Islamic law has a somewhat more expansive definition of POW than everyone else.

POW = Prisoner of War

Yes, but most of us consider taking noncombatants as POW's to be a war crime.

[Nakena]

See, Islamic Slavery should be illegal. We could invade states that practice it.

Freedom of religion has limits, i.e. slavery, racial discrimination.

Theres a number of statues in Islam that mandate a certain social order, laws, etc. This goes beyond the scope of a personal, privately or communaly held belief.

Of course, the overhelming majority of muslims may not follow or care about those aspects but they are nevertheless there.

[Nea Byzantia]

Yep.

In Islamic slavery you can revoke servitude.

Then it isn't slavery. Its a gratuitous performance.

Slavery is a harm, regardless of the circumstances.

We've had this conversation with Amin over and over again. Basically Islamic slavery allows slaves to sign a contract with their master setting a price to buy their freedom, and Shariah courts are required to honor it. Somehow this makes islamic slavery fundamentally different from every other form of ancient slavery and also not exploitative.[/quote]
You know things are gonna get crazy when you get a Texan to talk about Slavery...

[Nova Cyberia]

Islamic slaves had rights, as did chinese and persian ones, to an extent. It was still a brutally inhumane system

No it wasn't and isn't. Slaves can't be mistreated in any way, shape or form and if they are, the punishment on the master is manumission. If the slave is hit, they have the right to hit the master in the same way the master hit them. They should be given mukaatabah if they request their freedom as well. On top that, the master should help the slave if said slave needs it. Also the master and the slave should live on equal standing.

Slavery in Al-Islam:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wic1CdJKufY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4sVo_-j2THE
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pn1ubtoL95c
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h9d6sZJRNYQ
https://islamqa.info/en/94840
http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/index. ... definition
https://www.al-islam.org/slavery-from-i ... ks-slavery
http://www.islamweb.net/en/article/1174 ... of-slavery
http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/index. ... definition
https://abuaminaelias.com/sexual-consen ... -in-islam/
https://abuaminaelias.com/what-does-isl ... oncubines/
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/13737/w ... lave-women
https://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-a ... oncubines/
https://sunnah.com/urn/414630
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/89/10

Well, there's people on this very page talking about Islamic slavery and Chinese slavery, so...

Turkic/Turkish slavery =/= Islamic slavery

*Coughs*
Like in China or Iran, coincidentally enough...

Or Arabia present and post Prophethood. I'd wanna live there.

Yeah no f*ck them for that

https://sunnah.com/urn/2212700

Unless you're the Emperor, or Communist equivalent thereof...

There is none.

Back to slavery.

Do voluntary maids count as slavery?

What about voluntary servants?

Aren't they paid?

You can't have voluntary servitude. You can have voluntary service, but servitude implicitly prevents any revocation.

Yes you can.

Just saying, if people abide by the law that we shouldn’t hurt our ‘slaves’, then slavery would be okay, just an economic problem. But we can’t trust humans to always comply with the law, because we clearly see that many break the law.

And you're saying slavery should be illegal because of that?

Well, we found someone here willing to defend slavery.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

POW = Prisoner of War

Yes, but most of us consider taking noncombatants as POW's to be a war crime.

So does Shari'ah.

I'm confused Kernen. Are you saying that Islamic slavery isn't actually slavery or that it is actually slavery?

I had to to amend my analysis as you dribbled out additional information.

What's "dribbled out" supposed to mean?

As of now, I have the following information:

islamic slavery is revocable upon the following circumstances:

The agent pays a predetermined price,
The agent accomplishes a subjective goal at the discretion of the principle, or
The agent requests freedom *and is granted freedom by the principle.*

The 1st 2 points are connected to the 3rd point, so:
The agent requests freedom and pays mukaatabah
Or
The agent requests freedom, proves worthiness, pays mukaatabah
So actually the 2nd point is a possible additional rule.

Because none of those are immediately and unconditionally revocable, the agent lacks the power to unilaterally revoke the relationship, and it is therefore slavery.

That's what I've been saying, it's still slavery.

Bear in mind that I have placed an asterisk next to the information I got after my first assessment, which is the source of the confusion.

Oh ok, thx for the clarification.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

No it wasn't and isn't. Slaves can't be mistreated in any way, shape or form and if they are, the punishment on the master is manumission. If the slave is hit, they have the right to hit the master in the same way the master hit them. They should be given mukaatabah if they request their freedom as well. On top that, the master should help the slave if said slave needs it. Also the master and the slave should live on equal standing.


Turkic/Turkish slavery =/= Islamic slavery

Or Arabia present and post Prophethood. I'd wanna live there.

https://sunnah.com/urn/2212700

There is none.

Aren't they paid?

Yes you can.

And you're saying slavery should be illegal because of that?

Well, we found someone here willing to defend Islamic slavery.

Ftfy

[Cekoviu]

Well, we found someone here willing to defend Islamic slavery.

Ftfy

Again, there is not a functionally important difference. Islamic slavery is STILL slavery.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Well, we found someone here willing to defend Islamic slavery.

Ftfy

You know, putting the word "Islamic" in front of horrible things doesn't make it better.

[Nova Cyberia]

Well, we found someone here willing to defend Islamic slavery.

Ftfy

Still slavery.

[Greater Cesnica]

Ftfy

Again, there is not a functionally important difference. Islamic slavery is STILL slavery.

And slavery is still a vile practice.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Ftfy

Again, there is not a functionally important difference. Islamic slavery is STILL slavery.

Ftfy

Still slavery.

I never said it wasn't.

[Australian rePublic]

It is not the ancient period

/thread

[Pacomia]

It is not the ancient period

/thread

If only everyone saw things that way...

[Greater Cesnica]

It is not the ancient period

/thread

If only everyone saw things that way...

20 people answered Yes to the poll...

[Nakena]

It is not the ancient period

/thread

But some people like El-Amin do follow rules and laws that were laid out at late antiquity.

[Andsed]

Well, we found someone here willing to defend Islamic slavery.

Ftfy

Saying it´s ¨Islamic slavery¨ does not change the fact that it is slavery and slavery is always a disgusting thing to do.