Is religion a form of indoctrination?

[Vetalia]

Wrong. Morality in modern democratic societies is developed from enlightenment values, which ran opposed to Christianity for years.

All of which originated in the Christian scholastic culture prior to the Enlightenment, whether Catholic or Protestant.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Wrong. Morality in modern democratic societies is developed from enlightenment values, which ran opposed to Christianity for years.

Not necessarily. In fact, I'd go as far as argue that not really. Jennings Bryan, who can be credited as shifting the Democratic Party from a sort of fiscal conservatism and liberalism to progressivism was a devout Christian and believed in the social gospel. To him, progressivism was linked to religion.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

Wrong. Morality in modern democratic societies is developed from enlightenment values, which ran opposed to Christianity for years.

All of which originated in the Christian scholastic culture prior to the Enlightenment, whether Catholic or Protestant.

Incorrect. They arose from Socratic thought, along with the rebirth of other Greco-Roman philosophers. Do you know where many of those texts came from? The Muslim orient, because Christians actively suppressed philosophy.

[Aureumterra]

some people in america: we need religion cause without a belief in God, everyone would just start killing each other for no reason

Sweden: laughs in Viking

Swedes are fake vikings. We are real vikings. And tbf, everyone was killing each other for no reason before Alþingi

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

Wrong. Morality in modern democratic societies is developed from enlightenment values, which ran opposed to Christianity for years.

Not necessarily. In fact, I'd go as far as argue that not really. Jennings Bryan, who can be credited as shifting the Democratic Party from a sort of fiscal conservatism and liberalism to progressivism was a devout Christian and believed in the social gospel. To him, progressivism was linked to religion.

And yet, if the west had only remained steeped in state religion, we would still believe many of the falsehoods that impeded the possibility of that world.

[Vetalia]

Incorrect. They arose from Socratic thought, along with the rebirth of other Greco-Roman philosophers. Do you know where many of those texts came from? The Muslim orient, because Christians actively suppressed philosophy.

And do you know who the bridge was for Greco-Roman and Islamic philosophy to reemerge in Western Europe? St. Thomas Aquinas, a Christian Dominican friar.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

Incorrect. They arose from Socratic thought, along with the rebirth of other Greco-Roman philosophers. Do you know where many of those texts came from? The Muslim orient, because Christians actively suppressed philosophy.

And do you know who the bridge was for Greco-Roman and Islamic philosophy to reemerge in Western Europe? St. Thomas Aquinas, a Christian Dominican friar.

Keyword: bridge. This was after the damage at Alexandria and the schools of Athens was already done, and all memory of the world those philosophers created had been quashed.

[No State Here]

No, because atheists and those who were raised atheist can become religious. They weren't indoctrinated, for reasons of their own they found faith.

Right, but those who are religious because their parents are religious (the vast majority) are indoctrinated, I was raised in an extremely orthodox baptist family, however, I became atheist around the same time I came out as bi

[NERVUN]

Again... depends upon the notion of the 'other' person, ne?

*heh* your final line reminds me of Starship Troopers (The book, not the movies). Now I LOVE Starship Troopers, I consider it a good book, but even I, as a teen, detected a lot of hand-wavum when we got to the scientifically proven moral system. I'm not making the argument that religious moral systems are better, just that we've had philosophers going on for thousands of years attempting to find one that works are we're still coming up short.

True, but in pretty much every culture before the present breaking an oath of that magnitude would typically involve society breaking said person in one way or another, typically physically. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Not at all. After all, if you have issues defining the other person AS a person, not a problem then, right?

If every human being has overall the same capability for reason we should be able to come up with a universal moral code.

And yet we have not.

[NERVUN]

And Sweden has a pretty big problem with the religion of peace these days.

*mod hat on for a sec* Don't.

[Ethel mermania]

Any kind of socialization is technically indoctrination, but not all forms of indoctrination are bad. It is important for a child to learn social values that will help them in life.

And yet one can learn secular values independently of religion.

The purpose of any school system is to indoctrinate you into the society.

[Vetalia]

Keyword: bridge. This was after the damage at Alexandria and the schools of Athens was already done, and all memory of the world those philosophers created had been quashed.

The destruction of the Library you undoubtedly reference happened 700 years before Aquinas was born (along with a subsequent sack by the Muslims in the 7th century, 500 years before he was born). The other great Greek academies were destroyed by the Romans a millenium before Aquinas was born.

If it weren't for Christian monks in the Early Middle Ages you wouldn't have a single reference point for the history of Western civilization prior to the 10th century or so.

[NERVUN]

And yet one can learn secular values independently of religion.

The purpose of any school system is to indoctrinate you into the society.

Yup!

[Vetalia]

And Sweden has a pretty big problem with the religion of peace these days.

*mod hat on for a sec* Don't.

Ok, I'll back down boss.

[Jolthig]

No, because atheists and those who were raised atheist can become religious. They weren't indoctrinated, for reasons of their own they found faith.

As a former atheist, I disagree.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

Keyword: bridge. This was after the damage at Alexandria and the schools of Athens was already done, and all memory of the world those philosophers created had been quashed.

The destruction of the Library you undoubtedly reference happened 700 years before Aquinas was born (along with a subsequent sack by the Muslims in the 7th century, 500 years before he was born). The other great Greek academies were destroyed by the Romans a millenium before Aquinas was born.

If it weren't for Christian monks in the Early Middle Ages you wouldn't have a single reference point for the history of Western civilization prior to the 10th century or so.

My point exactly. Christianity poisoned the well for a thousand years. I’m not saying the Muslims are innocent either—far from it. If all Christianity taught monks to do was copy texts, that makes them worse than murderers of philosophy, that makes them antithetical to its very spirit—a lived means of a reasoned life.

[Vetalia]

Not at all. After all, if you have issues defining the other person AS a person, not a problem then, right?

That kind of dehumanization is well outside the moral boundaries of historical civilization, though, and only really arose in the 20th-21st century with fascism and Communism...e.g. a Christian knight and an Islamic jihadi would never have considered their enemy inhuman or subhuman, just the enemy to be killed or converted. Same with racism, that's another wonderful "scientific" development of our times.

Maybe the problem is we lost our way from the moral path of our ancestors.

[Jolthig]

Not at all. After all, if you have issues defining the other person AS a person, not a problem then, right?

That kind of dehumanization is well outside the moral boundaries of historical civilization, though, and only really arose in the 20th-21st century with fascism and Communism...e.g. a Christian knight and an Islamic jihadi would never have considered their enemy inhuman or subhuman, just the enemy to be killed or converted. Same with racism, that's another wonderful "scientific" development of our times.

Maybe the problem is we lost our way from the moral path of our ancestors.

Christian's and Muslim extremists are in part because of issues in their countries and not just religion by itself.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

Not at all. After all, if you have issues defining the other person AS a person, not a problem then, right?

That kind of dehumanization is well outside the moral boundaries of historical civilization, though, and only really arose in the 20th-21st century with fascism and Communism...e.g. a Christian knight and an Islamic jihadi would never have considered their enemy inhuman or subhuman, just the enemy to be killed or converted. Same with racism, that's another wonderful "scientific" development of our times.

Maybe the problem is we lost our way from the moral path of our ancestors.

Except dehumanization did happen, especially to natives among anti-enlightenment Catholics. Fascism itself has always been an ideology mired in religion, whether traditional, Christian, or some combination thereof. The first treaty Nazi Germany signed was with the Vatican.

[Vetalia]

My point exactly. Christianity poisoned the well for a thousand years. I’m not saying the Muslims are innocent either—far from it. If all Christianity taught monks to do was copy texts, that makes them worse than murderers of philosophy, that makes them antithetical to its very spirit—a lived means of a reasoned life.

The destruction of philosophy began under the pagan Romans because the Greeks' thinking was inimical to their dreams of Empire...and I don't think you quite get how bad it was in the 4th through 6th centuries AD across Western Europe. Without those monks and their monasteries protected by the Church there would be no Aristotle, no Socrates, no Julius Caesar or Caesar Augustus, Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus or the rest of Roman history and philosophy.

It's hard to live a "reasoned life" when your entire world is literally collapsing and your next meal is uncertain at best.

[Kowani]

Not at all. After all, if you have issues defining the other person AS a person, not a problem then, right?

That kind of dehumanization is well outside the moral boundaries of historical civilization, though, and only really arose in the 20th-21st century with fascism and Communism...e.g. a Christian knight and an Islamic jihadi would never have considered their enemy inhuman or subhuman, just the enemy to be killed or converted. Same with racism, that's another wonderful "scientific" development of our times.

Maybe the problem is we lost our way from the moral path of our ancestors.

Every single colonial government would like to speak with you.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

My point exactly. Christianity poisoned the well for a thousand years. I’m not saying the Muslims are innocent either—far from it. If all Christianity taught monks to do was copy texts, that makes them worse than murderers of philosophy, that makes them antithetical to its very spirit—a lived means of a reasoned life.

The destruction of philosophy began under the pagan Romans because the Greeks' thinking was inimical to their dreams of Empire...and I don't think you quite get how bad it was in the 4th through 6th centuries AD across Western Europe. Without those monks and their monasteries protected by the Church there would be no Aristotle, no Socrates, no Julius Caesar or Caesar Augustus, Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus or the rest of Roman history and philosophy.

It's hard to live a "reasoned life" when your entire world is literally collapsing and your next meal is uncertain at best.

I wonder who made quick work of that empire? Could it have been...Constantine and Theodosius?

[Vetalia]

Except dehumanization did happen, especially to natives among anti-enlightenment Catholics. Fascism itself has always been an ideology mired in religion, whether traditional, Christian, or some combination thereof. The first treaty Nazi Germany signed was with the Vatican.

It's hard to negotiate when your country is entirely surrounded by a fascist dictatorship aligned with Nazi Germany and your focus is on preserving the lives of your faithful. And remember many, many Catholics were murdered in the concentration camps. The Catholic Church opposed Nazism with every fiber of its being, as evidenced by Mit Brenneder Sorge and the overwhelming opposition to Nazism in the Catholic regions of Germany.

[Hatterleigh]

No. Humans have had religion (defining religion as believing in certain metaphysical truths) since we were cavemen. It's definitely not made for the purpose of indoctrination, it's just sort of natural conclusions we come to about how stuff is.

[NERVUN]

Not at all. After all, if you have issues defining the other person AS a person, not a problem then, right?

That kind of dehumanization is well outside the moral boundaries of historical civilization, though, and only really arose in the 20th-21st century with fascism and Communism...e.g. a Christian knight and an Islamic jihadi would never have considered their enemy inhuman or subhuman, just the enemy to be killed or converted. Same with racism, that's another wonderful "scientific" development of our times.

Maybe the problem is we lost our way from the moral path of our ancestors.

No... No, there's quite a lot of writing that shows the US/THEM tribal stuff that went on prior to.

The point about oaths was more it's unbreakable if it's to another US, but if it's to THEM (THEM can be opposite gender, anyone outside of the main) then by all means...