Byzantine- Roman or Greek

[Sarderia]

Really?

Blasphemy...

laughs in İstanbul

[Nea Byzantia]

Blasphemy...

laughs in İstanbul

Fite me...

[Northwest Slobovia]

I've been to one in Crete, though it was a succession of sites steadily occupied and rebuilt from at least the Greek classical era until long after anything that was associated with Rome was long gone.

That's most places in Greece...except maybe the Monasteries.

Well, sure, in that that's most places anywhere in the Old World. Good city/fortification sites tended to be rebuilt and reused. But you know that.

But it's not universally true. There were nearby Greek Classical ruins that had gotten buried after the site was abandoned, and somewhere within walking distance, the ruins of a Venetian church that had been built on a new site.

[Nea Byzantia]

That's most places in Greece...except maybe the Monasteries.

Well, sure, in that that's most places anywhere in the Old World. Good city/fortification sites tended to be rebuilt and reused. But you know that.

But it's not universally true. There were nearby Greek Classical ruins that had gotten buried after the site was abandoned, and somewhere within walking distance, the ruins of a Venetian church that had been built on a new site.

Fair point.

[Northwest Slobovia]

Well, sure, in that that's most places anywhere in the Old World. Good city/fortification sites tended to be rebuilt and reused. But you know that.

But it's not universally true. There were nearby Greek Classical ruins that had gotten buried after the site was abandoned, and somewhere within walking distance, the ruins of a Venetian church that had been built on a new site.

Fair point.

FWIW, if you ever get a chance to go any place historical with an archeologist, take it. The guy I was with at the time specialized in numismatics, but he knew where to find all the interesting things way off the beaten path.

[Nea Byzantia]

Fair point.

FWIW, if you ever get a chance to go any place historical with an archeologist, take it. The guy I was with at the time specialized in numismatics, but he knew where to find all the interesting things way off the beaten path.

That's pretty cool. Which archeologist? Indiana Jones?...lol

No but seriously, how'd you end up with an archeologist, anyways? You got connections, or something?

[The South Falls]

We dont say that Ameroca is British because oary of the territory was once British. We have our own distinct culture and flavor of language. The culture, language and hierarchy of a state, in this case Greek, define the state, and not the emperors, lineage of such, or the latter mother state of the nation.

[Northwest Slobovia]

FWIW, if you ever get a chance to go any place historical with an archeologist, take it. The guy I was with at the time specialized in numismatics, but he knew where to find all the interesting things way off the beaten path.

That's pretty cool. Which archeologist? Indiana Jones?...lol

No but seriously, how'd you end up with an archeologist, anyways? You got connections, or something?

Well, that was my wife's connection. But it's not hard to make those connections. If you're interested in a field, know something about it, and discuss it politely with academics, they're often willing to help you.

Even for "popular" fields like Greco-Roman archeology, few people outside academia know it well, and IME most people in the field are happy to talk about their work. They might even help you visit an active dig (with careful preparation). I bumped into a guy who turned out to be a museum curator of Mesoamerican archeology, and he happily gave me a behind-the-scenes tour of what he was working on. That was pretty close to Indiana Jones.

"Now, this piece..." *opens drawer to reveal ceramic "demon" mask* "...was one I collected in Costa Rica. If you check the literature, most people think it was used in <particular religious rite>, but I think..."

[Bienenhalde]

Even though the Byzantines used Greek as their primary lingua franca, they had a Roman system of law and government. Also, their style of architecture, with abundance arches and domes reflects the influence of Roman engineering. The architecture of pre-Roman Greece, by contrast, was dominated by straight lines and angles, as we see with the Parthenon, for example. Also, the Byzantines seem to have had a more prudish attitude towards sex and the human body in contrast to the libertinism of pagan Greece and Rome.

[Conserative Morality]

Greek. They spoke Greek nearly exclusively, they called themselves kings, they passed their throne down like property except when couped, they performed a great many practices abhorrent to traditional Roman morality, didn't own Rome, and maintained no traditional Roman values.

Oh but I guess they called themselves Romans so that made it okay.

[Australian rePublic]

We dont say that Ameroca is British because oary of the territory was once British. We have our own distinct culture and flavor of language. The culture, language and hierarchy of a state, in this case Greek, define the state, and not the emperors, lineage of such, or the latter mother state of the nation.

False comparison. We don't say that the USA was British, because the USA fought, and won, a war to become an Indipendant country. The USA isn't considered to be a seperate country to the UK because they slowly evolved into seperate country- they're a seperate country because of bigger army diplomacy? I mean, isn't that what they celebrated yesturday? At this stage, however, you might make that comparison with Australia, Canada, etc. to which I say, good point

[Australian rePublic]

Greek. They spoke Greek nearly exclusively, they called themselves kings, they passed their throne down like property except when couped, they performed a great many practices abhorrent to traditional Roman morality, didn't own Rome, and maintained no traditional Roman values.

Oh but I guess they called themselves Romans so that made it okay.

Fair point

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

I'd call the Byzantine government very much Roman. While they spoke Greek, it really had very little in common with the Greeks that existed before the Roman empire. No city-states, no hugely complex political systems for every square mile, not even Olympic games or other Greek traditions. They saw themselves as fully Roman. Their laws were Roman too, and their system of government was fully inherited from Rome. They used latin as a language of government. If you look at their legal system, it's just a copy of what the whole Roman empire had before them. They referenced old Pagan legalists in their court cases, and stood proudly in the tradition of Augustus. They were certainly a good deal more Roman than they were Greek, even though they spoke the language. Their culture resembled nothing of what Greece was before Roman conquest.

I think we flip it around. It's unfair to ask whether the Byzantines were more Greek or more Roman, because of what we imagine when we use those words. When the think of 'Roman', we think of the glory days of the empire, either under Augustus or Marcus Aurelius. However, Roman society evolved, and while we are not accustomed to think of the later empire when we think of Rome, Constantine's empire was also Roman. The Byzantines are direct descendants of that empire, and resemble that later Constantine Christian Rome a whole lot. Of course, they didn't resemble the early Pagan empire, which still had the trappings of the republic, but if that's the benchmark, then Rome itself was not Roman by it's later stages, which is of course an absurd claim. So much happened between Marcus Antonius and Justinian, like the Christianisation of the Empire and the Edict of Caracalla, making all those within the empire Roman citizens, that it is unfair to compare the Byzantines to that.

On the other hand, we have Greece. Of course, when we think of Greece, we don't really think of the Greece before Rome, or the way Greece was viewed back then. We see Greece as what it is today. Now, this also is an unfair comparison. Modern-day Greece has done its best to emulate the old Byzantine empire and claim it as its own history. Of course, the Greek people have evolved from the Byzantines, so it is logical that they bear resemblance. However, apart from the language, which they had in common, modern-day Greece and the Byzantines had nothing in common. Modern-day Greeks see themselves as Greek, which would be a foreign concept to the Romans living in the Byzantine empire. Even the term Byzantine is a later invention, as the Byzantines did not see themselves as anything but Roman. Sure, they spoke Greek, but so did the elite of the Roman republic.

When we speak of Roman law today, we speak of the Codex Iustinianus, declared by the emperor Justinian. If the Byzantine empire was not Roman, then our whole concept of what exactly is Roman disappears.

Greek. They spoke Greek nearly exclusively, they called themselves kings, they passed their throne down like property except when couped, they performed a great many practices abhorrent to traditional Roman morality, didn't own Rome, and maintained no traditional Roman values.

Oh but I guess they called themselves Romans so that made it okay.

Those traditions were lost by Rome itself as soon as Caligula lost power. If that's the measure you go by, then Trajan was not a Roman emperor.

[Duvniask]

I'd call the Byzantine government very much Roman. While they spoke Greek, it really had very little in common with the Greeks that existed before the Roman empire. No city-states, no hugely complex political systems for every square mile, not even Olympic games or other Greek traditions. They saw themselves as fully Roman. Their laws were Roman too, and their system of government was fully inherited from Rome. They used latin as a language of government. If you look at their legal system, it's just a copy of what the whole Roman empire had before them. They referenced old Pagan legalists in their court cases, and stood proudly in the tradition of Augustus. They were certainly a good deal more Roman than they were Greek, even though they spoke the language.

Greek was used nearly exclusively after the reign of Heraclius, who changed the official language of administration to Greek around 620. Certainly this was also intensified by the loss of almost all Latin-speaking territories in the following century.

Their culture resembled nothing of what Greece was before Roman conquest.

This is not true. Byzantine literature, at least before the 4th Crusade and the Palaiologan period, was customarily written in an archaizing style to imitate the writers of Ancient Greece, in a movement known as Atticism, while generally refraining from the use of Medieval Greek as it was actually spoken in these times.

People were also educated in the Greek classics, and moreso the higher into the education system you advanced. It was under the secondary education, headed by a grammatikós, that students were educated in the grammar and vocabulary of Classical Greek as well the Classical history and mythology necessary to understand the ancient texts, such as Homer. In higher education, the rhētor would educate students in the art of rhetoric, in imitation of the old ways, using handbooks on the art of rhetoric, model texts with commentary, or excerpts. Likewise, ancient philosophy was taught as well, for example via reading and discussion of the works of Plato and Aristotle. Source

On the other hand, we have Greece. Of course, when we think of Greece, we don't really think of the Greece before Rome, or the way Greece was viewed back then. We see Greece as what it is today. Now, this also is an unfair comparison. Modern-day Greece has done its best to emulate the old Byzantine empire and claim it as its own history. Of course, the Greek people have evolved from the Byzantines, so it is logical that they bear resemblance. However, apart from the language, which they had in common, modern-day Greece and the Byzantines had nothing in common. Modern-day Greeks see themselves as Greek, which would be a foreign concept to the Romans living in the Byzantine empire. Even the term Byzantine is a later invention, as the Byzantines did not see themselves as anything but Roman. Sure, they spoke Greek, but so did the elite of the Roman republic.

You're missing a really obvious one: their Eastern Orthodox faith. Indeed, this helped preserve a distinct Greek identity in Ottoman times. Aside from this, there's also the aforementioned continuity of the Greek literary tradition.

[Conserative Morality]

Those traditions were lost by Rome itself as soon as Caligula lost power. If that's the measure you go by, then Trajan was not a Roman emperor.

Not even close. Those traditions were not lost in practice until Septimius Severus, not lost in form until Diocletian, and not in spirit until Majorian's death.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It had influences of both. Greco-Roman but at the same time, it’s very own thing.

[Nea Byzantia]

Byzantine Thread: Who's your favourite Byzantine Emperor?

Constantinian dynasty (306-363): 57 Years

1. St. Constantine I (Constantinus Pius Felix Invictus Augustus Pontifex Maximus Pater Patriae Proconsul; 272 - 337; ruled 306 - 337) – son of Constantius Chlorus
2. Constantius II (Flavius Iulius Constantius; 317 - 361; ruled 337 - 361) – son of Constantine I
3. Julian (Flavius Claudius Iulianus; 331 - 363; ruled 361 - 363) –son-in-law of Constantine I, brother-in-law and first cousin of Constantius II, grandson of Constantius I

Non-dynastic

4. Jovian (Iovianus; 332 - 364; ruled 363 - 364) – soldier, restored Christianity

Valentinian-Theodosian dynasty (364-457): 93 Years

5. Valentinian I (Flavius Valentinianus; 321 - 375; ruled 364) – soldier
6. Valens (Flavius Iulius Valens; 328 - 378; ruled 364 - 378) – brother of Valentinian I
7. Gratian (Flavius Gratianus; 359 - 383; ruled 378 - 379) – son of Valentinian I
8. Theodosius I (Flavius Gratianus; 346 - 395; ruled 379 - 395) – soldier
9. Arcadius (Flavius Arcadius; 377 - 408; ruled 395 - 408) – son of Theodosius I, brother of Honorius
10. Theodosius II (Flavius Theodosius; 401 - 450; ruled 408 - 450) – son of Arcadius
11. Pulcheria (Aelia Purcheria; 399 – 453; ruled 408 - 441, 450) – sister of Theodosius II
12. Marcian (Flavius Marcianus; 392 - 457; ruled 450 - 457) – soldier; married Pulcheria after Theodosius's death

Leonid dynasty (457-518): 61 Years

13. Leo I the Thracian (Valerius Leo) (401-474, ruled 457 - 474) – soldier
14. Leo II (467 - 474, ruled 474) – grandson of Leo I, son of Zeno
15. Zeno (425 - 491, ruled 474 - 475) – son-in-law of Leo I
16. Basiliscus ( ? - c. 477, ruled 475 - 476) – usurper; brother-in-law of Leo I

Zeno (ruled 476 - 491) – restored

17. Anastasius I (430 - 518, ruled 491 - 518) – son-in-law of Leo I

Justinian dynasty (518-602): 84 Years

18. Justin I (Flavius Iustinius; 450 - 527; ruled 518 - 527)
19. Justinian I the Great (Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Iustinianus; 482 - 565; ruled 527 - 565) – nephew and adoptive son of Justin I
20. Justin II (Flavius Iustinius Iunior; 520 - 578; ruled 565 - 578) – nephew of Justinian I
21. Tiberius II Constantine (Flavius Tiberius Constantinus; 540 - 582, ruled 574, 578 - 582) – adopted by Justin II
22. Maurice (Flavius Mauricius Tiberius; 539 - 602, ruled 582 - 602) – son-in-law of Tiberius II

Non-dynastic

23. Phocas (Flavius Phocas; ? - 610; ruled 602 - 610)

Heraclian dynasty (610-695): 85 Years

24. Heraclius (575 - 641, ruled 610 - 641)
25. Constantine III (Heraclius Constantine) (612 - 641, ruled 641) – son of Heraclius; coemperor with Heraklonas
26. Heraklonas (Constantine Heraclius)(626 - 641?, ruled 641) – son of Herakleios
27. Constans II (Herakleios, later Constantine, called the Bearded) (630 - 668, ruled 641 - 668) – son of Constantine III
28. Mezezius (668 - 669)
29. Constantine IV (649 - 685, ruled 668 - 685) – son of Constans II
30. Justinian II the Slit-nosed (668 - 711, ruled 685 - 695) – son of Constantine IV

Non-dynastic (695-705)

31. Leontios (ruled 695 - 698)
32. Tiberios III (ruled 698 - 705)

Heraclian dynasty (705-711)

Justinian II the Slit-nosed (ruled 705 - 711)

Non-dynastic (711-717)

33. Philippikos Bardanes (ruled 711 - 713) – Armenian soldier
34. Anastasios II ( ? - 721, ruled 713 - 715)
35. Theodosios III (ruled 715 - 717)

Isaurian dynasty (717-802): 85 Years

36. Leo III the Isaurian (675 - 741, ruled 717 - 741)
37. Constantine V Kopronymos (the Dung-named) (718 - 775, ruled 741) – son of Leo III
38. Artabasdus the Icon-lover (ruled 741 - 743) – Leo III's son-in-law

Constantine V Kopronymos (the Dung-named)(ruled 743 - 775)

39. Leo IV the Khazar (750 - 780, ruled 775 - 780) – son of Constantine V
40. Constantine VI the Blinded (771 - 797 or 805, ruled 780 - 797) – son of Leo IV
41. Irene the Athenian (755 - 803, ruled 797 - 802) – wife of Leo IV, mother of Constantine VI

Nikephoros' dynasty (802-813): 11 Years

42. Nikephoros I ( ? - 811, ruled 802 - 811)
43. Staurakios ( ? - 812, ruled 811) – son of Nikephoros I
44. Michael I Rangabe (ruled 811 - 813) – son-in-law of Nikephoros I

Non-dynastic

45. Leo V the Armenian (775 - 820, ruled 813 - 820)

Phrygian dynasty (820-867): 47 Years

46. Michael II the Stammerer or the Amorian (770 - 829, ruled 820 - 829) – son-in-law of Constantine VI
47. Theophilos (813 - 842, ruled 829 - 842) – son of Michael II
48. Theodora (ruled 842 - 855) – wife of Theophilus
49. Michael III the Drunkard (840 - 867, ruled 842 - 867) – son of Theophilos

Macedonian dynasty (867-1056): 189 Years

50. Basil I the Macedonian (811 - 886, ruled 867 - 886) - married Michael III's widow
51. Leo VI the Wise (866 - 912, ruled 886 - 912)
52. Alexander (870 - 913, ruled 912 - 913) – son of Basil I
53. Constantine VII the Purple-born (905-959, ruled 913 - 959) – son of Leo VI
54. Romanos I Lekapenos (870 - 948, ruled 919 - 944) – father-in-law of Constantine VII
55. Romanos II the Purple-born (939 - 963, ruled 959 - 963) – son of Constantine VII
56. Nikephoros II Phokas (912 - 969, ruled 963 - 969) – married Romanos II's widow
57. John I Tzimiskes (925 - 976, ruled 969 - 976) – brother-in-law of Romanus II
58. Basil II the Bulgar-slayer (958 - 1025, ruled 976 - 1025) – son of Romanos II
59. Constantine VIII (960-1028, ruled 1025 - 1028) – son of Romanos II
60. Zoe (c. 978 - 1050, ruled 1028 - 1050) – daughter of Constantine VIII
61. Romanos III Argyros (968 - 1034, ruled 1028 - 1034) – Zoe's first husband
62. Michael IV the Paphlagonian (1010 - 1041, ruled 1034 - 1041) – Zoe's second husband
63. Michael V the Caulker (1015 - 1042, ruled 1041 - 1042) – Michael IV's nephew, Zoe's adopted son
64. Theodora (980 - 1056, ruled 1042) – daughter of Constantine VIII, coempress with Zoe
65. Constantine IX Monomachos (1000 - 1055, ruled 1042 - 1055) – Zoe's third husband

Theodora (ruled 1055 - 1056)

Non-dynastic

66. Michael VI the General (ruled 1056 - 1057) – chosen by Theodora

Komnenid dynasty

67. Isaac I Komnenos (c. 1007 - 1060, ruled 1057 - 1059) – soldier

Doukid dynasty (1059-1081): 22 Years

68. Constantine X Doukas (1006 - 1067, ruled 1059 - 1067)
69. Michael VII Doukas Quarter-short (1050 - 1090, ruled 1067 - 1078) – son of Constantine X
70. Romanos IV Diogenes (1032 - 1072, ruled 1068 - 1071) – married Constantine X's widow
71. Nikephoros III Botaneiates (1001 - 1081, ruled 1078 - 1081)

Comnenid dynasty (restored, 1081-1185): 104 Years

72. Alexios I Komnenos (1057 - 1118, ruled 1081 - 1118) – nephew of Isaac I, married Constantine X's grandniece
73. John II Komnenos the Handsome (1087 - 1143, ruled 1118 - 1143) – son of Alexios I
74. Manuel I Komnenos the Great (1118 - 1180, ruled 1143 - 1180) – son of John II
75. Alexios II Komnenos (1169 - 1183, ruled 1180 - 1183) – son of Manuel I
76. Andronikos I Komnenos (1118 - 1185, ruled 1183 - 1185) – nephew of John II; married Alexios II's widow

Angelid dynasty (1185-1204): 19 Years

77. Isaac II Angelos (1156 - 1204, ruled 1185 - 1195) – great-grandson of Alexios I
78. Alexios III Angelos (1153 - 1211, ruled 1195 - 1203) – brother of Isaac II

Isaac II Angelos (ruled 1203 - 1204)

79. Alexios IV Angelos (1182 - 1204, ruled 1203 - 1204) – son of Isaac II
80. Nikolaos Kanabos (ruled 1204)
81. Alexios V Doukas the Bushy-eyebrowed (1140 - 1204, ruled 1204) – son-in-law of Alexios III

Laskarid dynasty (in exile, Empire of Nicaea, 1204-1261): 57 Years

82. Constantine Laskaris (ruled 1204) – not officially crowned
83. Theodore I Laskaris (1174 - 1222, ruled 1204 - 1222) – son-in-law of Alexios III
84. John III Doukas Vatatzes (1192 - 1254, ruled 1222 - 1254) – son-in-law of Theodore I
85. Theodore II Doukas Laskaris (1221 - 1258, ruled 1254 - 1258) – son of John III
86. John IV Doukas Laskaris (1250 - 1305, ruled 1258 - 1261) – son of Theodore II

Palaiologan Dynasty (restored to Constantinople, 1259-1453): 194 Years


87. Michael VIII Palaiologos (1224 - 1282, ruled 1259 - 1282) – great-grandson of Alexios III Angelos
88. Andronikos II Palaiologos the Elder (1258 - 1332, ruled 1282 - 1328) – son of Michael VIII
89. Andronikos III Palaiologos the Younger (1297 - 1341, ruled 1328 - 1341) – grandson of Andronikos II
90. John V Palaiologos (1332 - 1391, ruled 1341 - 1347) – son of Andronikos III
91. John VI Kantakouzenos (1295 - 1383, ruled outright 1347 - 1354) – father-in-law of John V

John V Palaiologos (ruled 1354 - 1376)

92. Andronikos IV Palaiologos (1348 - 1385, ruled 1376 - 1379) – son of John V

John V Palaiologos (ruled 1379 - 1390)

93. John VII Palaiologos (1370 - 1408, ruled 1390) – son of Andronikos IV

John V Palaiologos (ruled 1390 - 1391)

94. Manuel II Palaiologos (1350 - 1425, ruled 1391 - 1425) – son of John V

John VII Palaiologos (ruled 1399 - 1402)

95. John VIII Palaiologos (1392 - 1448, ruled 1425 - 1448) – son of Manuel II
96. Constantine XI Palaiologos Dragases (1405 - 1453, ruled 1449 - 1453) – son of Manuel II, not crowned in Constantinople

[Ifreann]

John I Tzimisces.

[Valrifell]

John I Tzimisces.

Oh thank god I wasn't the only one.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Most historians say Roman, it's no contest really. The Byzantine Empire is directly contiguous with the late Roman Empire, and you have to get really contrived to try to break that continuity.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Greek. They spoke Greek nearly exclusively, they called themselves kings, they passed their throne down like property except when couped, they performed a great many practices abhorrent to traditional Roman morality, didn't own Rome, and maintained no traditional Roman values.

Oh but I guess they called themselves Romans so that made it okay.

Cultures change. Rome in the time of Augustus would have been unrecognizable to Cincinnatus.

[Bear Stearns]

Of the three, Roman.

[Hatterleigh]

The byzantine empire is undeniably the actual roman empire, not an extension of it but literally the same empire as that of the romans, but it is a greek empire. this is a non-issue

[Conserative Morality]

Cultures change. Rome in the time of Augustus would have been unrecognizable to Cincinnatus.

While this is true, I would argue that there is significant cultural continuity between the end of the Second Punic War up to the end of the Principate.

[The Liberated Territories]

Byzantium was rightful Venetian clay. Romans? Hilarious.

Greek. They spoke Greek nearly exclusively, they called themselves kings, they passed their throne down like property except when couped, they performed a great many practices abhorrent to traditional Roman morality, didn't own Rome, and maintained no traditional Roman values.

Oh but I guess they called themselves Romans so that made it okay.