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Byzantine- Roman or Greek

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Byzantium- Roman or Greek?

Roman (Why?)
27
54%
Greek (Why?)
23
46%
 
Total votes : 50

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Australian rePublic
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Byzantine- Roman or Greek

Postby Australian rePublic » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:45 am

Image
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Yes, yes, I know that the middle flag was never the Byzantine flag, but it's the most recognisable as such, so I'm going with it.

Ah, the Roman Empire, just sitting as a unified state, until Diocletian had to go and split it in half in 284 AD. With the Western half ruled from Rome, and the Eastern half ruled from Byzantium, we're left with the question of whether the Eastern Roman Empire was a Roman state or a Greek state. Obviously in its beginnings, the Eastern Roman Empire was Roman, but as time progressed, the question remains about whether the Eastern Roman Empire remained a Roman state, or was it Roman in name only. Obviously, it had both Roman and Greek influences, but the question is whether it was a Greek state or a Roman state

Arguments for Rome
The Eastern Roman Empire was the successor of the Western Roman Empire. The entire was referred to as the "Eastern Roman Empire", and its citizens, Romans, for the entirety of its existence. The term "Byzantine" didn't even exist till a century after the city's fall. Nobody conquered the Eastern Roman Empire until the Ottoman Conquest and the subsequent fall of Constantinople, and thus, the Eastern Roman Empire remained the undisrupted descendant of the Roman Empire. It was Roman from its founding to its fall in 1453 AD. Further, if I'm not mistaking, Byzantine held onto the Roman legal system, and held onto everything else that Rome did. And whilst the Eastern half of the Empire was very Greek, Rome loved the Greeks, and Rome was extremely inspired by Greece, in and of herself, so setting up a culturally Greek state wasn't too much of a stretch

Arguments for Greece
The Eastern Roman Empire was culturally, and linguistically Greek. The Byzantine Empire stood for almost a millennium after the fall of the Roman Empire. As the Roman Empire was very Rome-centric, it would be hard to imagine a Roman state without Rome. Further, considering that the Western Half of the Empire, the cultural heart of the empire was gone, could the Eastern half really be considered the same empire? I mean, the Eastern half did last for almost a thousand years after the fall of the West, and the split happened for nearly a century before the fall of the West. That's a very long time. That's more than enough for the East to abandon its Roman-ness and become Greek, which was sort of the case. Further, after a while, the emperors who controlled Byzantium. Further, the entire was centred around Constantinople. Constantinople was always a Greek city, from its foundation as Byzantium. Constantine didn't build Constantinople, he merely made it bigger. Even then, Constantinople remained culturally and linguistically Greek. Aside from the Greek influences, the Eastern Roman Empire was very culturally different from the West. She was more cosmopolitan and urban, where as the West was more rural. And let's not even mention the religious differences between the two, post Great Schism. And Byzantine's rump state was undeniably Greek

My Conclusion
Whilst the Byzantine Empire was technically Roman, and I would technically call it Roman by every regard of the word, I also consider the Greek claim to the empire as legitimate, and would also state that Greeks can also legitimately claim it as theirs. I'm a little on the fence about this one. I'll swing toward Greek state, mainly because of how Roman-centric the Roman Empire was, and Byzantine continued till well after the fall of Rome, and because of how culturally and linguistically Greek it was

Your Opinion
This is the part you fill in :) What do you think? Byzantine, Roman or Greek?

Questions
Why do we have to pick sides, why can't we say "both?"- Because that's the easy way out. Considering that most of us would agree that Byzantine was both Greek and Roman, this would lead to a very monotonous discussion. Fence-sitting is the easy out, you have to choose a side. Okay, okay, fine. You can sit on the fence, as long you have to choose a side to dangle your feet on. Happy?
Last edited by Australian rePublic on Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:42 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Nea Byzantia
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Postby Nea Byzantia » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:48 am

Byzantium - Roman or Greek? I have to say both; and I'm saying this as someone who's both Greek and Italian.

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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:51 am

Nea Byzantia wrote:Byzantium - Roman or Greek? I have to say both; and I'm saying this as someone who's both Greek and Italian.

Damn! You beat me to my edit!
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Socialist Aidonaia
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Postby Socialist Aidonaia » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:55 am

I was under the impression the Greeks considered it an era of dIctatorship. Though Rome inherited Greek culture, Greece was a province of Rome. It’s capital city is the strategically located Constantinople rather than a traditional Greek city.
Last edited by Socialist Aidonaia on Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Turbofolkia
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Postby Turbofolkia » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:56 am

Turkish.
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:00 am

Turbofolkia wrote:Turkish.

We're talking before 1453 AD, not after...
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Postby Purpelia » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:31 am

Neither. The Eastern Roman Empire was some sort of (un)holy amalgamation of Rome and Greece, or rather the result of such a mix existing for centuries to the point that it got a life and identity of its own. So whilst if you took a random ERE citizen from back in the day to us he'd basically look like a Greek fiercely protesting that he is a Roman in actual fact he'd be as far from classical Greece or Rome or their modern equivalents as he is from americans.
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Imperator Augustus
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Postby Imperator Augustus » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:38 am

Damn Diocletian Split an Entire Empire in Half when he was 4.

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Postby Australian rePublic » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:43 am

Imperator Augustus wrote:Damn Diocletian Split an Entire Empire in Half when he was 4.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

284, not 248. Thanks for pointing out the typo!
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:27 am

Australian rePublic wrote:Why do we have to pick sides, why can't we say "both?"- Because that's the easy way out. Considering that most of us would agree that Byzantine was both Greek and Roman, this would lead to a very monotonous discussion. Fence-sitting is the easy out, you have to choose a side.


No I don't.

It was both and neither.

It was the continuation of the Roman imperial state, using Greek as its lingua franca (and yes, I know how ironic it is to use that phrase in this context) from the 7th century onwards.

But up until the final Palaeologian centuries, it was never 'culturally and linguistically Greek'; it was a multicultural and multiethnic state with a Greek-speaking court. Culturally exclusive Hellenism was only really fully embraced as a Byzantine concept in the closing decades of the Empire, perhaps as late as John VIII (1425–1448), when the empire had been reduced to a few small Greek enclaves, and was almost non-existent before the Fourth Crusade. Some of the greatest Emperors weren't 'Greek', such as the Arab-speaking Syrian Leo III or the Armenian John I Tzimisces.

As far as the Byzantines were concerned, they were Roman (Ῥωμαῖοι). For much of the empire's history, 'Hellene' (Ἕλλην) referred to uncivilised pagans.

Outlining the Byzantine Empire as predominantly 'Greek' in both language and culture is a modern nationalist trope that would have been meaningless to most citizens of the state for most of the Eastern Roman Empire's history. Trying to frame pre-modern national identity in modern nationalist terms is functionally silly. You can't reduce this type of complex historical issue to a simple yes/no proposition.

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-Ocelot-
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Postby -Ocelot- » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:07 am

False dichotomy

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Postby Rojava Free State » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:05 am

I have an idea. Maybe they were both.

The byzantiness spoke Greek and had many Greek customs but also considered themselves Roman and had many Roman traditions and cultural practices as well. Being Greek or Roman aren't inherently opposite. One could be both
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:12 am

Both

It is culturally and linguistically aligned to the Greeks, but it is also was the Roman Empire. The "Byzantines" were founded during the split and survived until 1453. Hence, it was both Roman and Greek.

Eh, it was better than the HRE anyways
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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:13 am

This would be like asking me if I'm Lebanese or Puerto rican. All I'm gonna say is yes.
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Athonuna
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Postby Athonuna » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:19 am

It has major influences from both sides, but I'm going to derive a large part of my answer from Russia. They considered themselves the third Rome, after Rome itself and Byzantium. Since they were orthodox, they considered themselves the current holders of the flame of Western Civilization, but... there are few things for me that doesn't really let this have sense. Constantinople, then called Byzantium, was founded by Greeks and remained that way until Rome took it over. It wasn't really until the fall of the Western Roman Empire that Constantinople really came into prominence as the capital of an empire. Sure, it embodied the spirit of Western Civilization when the founder of Western Civilization was being torn apart by barbarians, but I think a lot of the Greek influence it started off with was embodied in the Eastern Roman Empire, and after that point Western Civilization got a lot of its Greek roots, more so than there was before. I'm going to have to say Greek for this one, even though the Roman influences are undeniable.
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Postby Vetalia » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:00 pm

It was a continuation of the Roman Empire until Justinian, as he was the last documented emperor of the Roman Empire to speak Latin as a native language. After that, it became a truly Greek political entity although its origins were Roman.
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:02 pm

Neither. I'd say the byzantine culture is a destinctive mix that evolved from roman, greek and christian orthodox sources.

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Postby Nova Cyberia » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:04 pm

It was a mixture of Greco-Roman culture, and it continued the Roman Imperial system of government.

But it was still primarily Greek.
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Postby Highever » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:17 pm

It was both that eventually became it's own distinct thing.
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:39 pm

Both.

More greek though in its later years.
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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:40 pm

Actually, I was wrong. It's Armenian
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:27 pm

Hammer Britannia wrote:Actually, I was wrong. It's Armenian


Heresy. But it wasnt really hellenic either. They abadoned the ancient heritage of Alexander and embraced christianity too much for their own good.
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Nova Cyberia
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:36 pm

Nakena wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:Actually, I was wrong. It's Armenian


Heresy. But it wasnt really hellenic either. They abadoned the ancient heritage of Alexander and embraced christianity too much for their own good.

Hardly. Christian Orthodoxy was what held the Greek people together during the dark times... the Ottoman times...
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:39 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Heresy. But it wasnt really hellenic either. They abadoned the ancient heritage of Alexander and embraced christianity too much for their own good.

Hardly. Christian Orthodoxy was what held the Greek people together during the dark times... the Ottoman times...


Yes and thats sad if thats all what they had. And its also why they failed to recreate the byzantine empire in 1919.

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Postby Nova Cyberia » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:43 pm

Nakena wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Hardly. Christian Orthodoxy was what held the Greek people together during the dark times... the Ottoman times...


Yes and thats sad if thats all what they had. And its also why they failed to recreate the byzantine empire in 1919.

What do you mean?
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