woman shot in the stomach, charged with death of fetus

[Xmara]

I’m pro-life, but come on Alabama. It wasn’t the pregnant woman’s fault that she lost her child. She was the victim! The woman who shot her should be the one charged. What’s next? Charging women who suffer miscarriages with murder?

[Purpelia]

Well. let's look over my logic in this, see where it leads.

1. Personally I am of the opinion that the fetus is not a living thing worth considering one tiny bit.
2. The woman started a fight which makes her a violent criminal and got shot for her trouble. I can't say I feel sorry for her.

So overall whilst I disagree with the logic they used to reach the conclusion of punishing this woman I do think she deserves punishment to think about what she did. So I am unsure what to say.

[Scomagia]

I’m pro-life, but come on Alabama. It wasn’t the pregnant woman’s fault that she lost her child. She was the victim! The woman who shot her should be the one charged. What’s next? Charging women who suffer miscarriages with murder?

She wasn't a victim.

[Galloism]

I'm of the opinion that killing a fetus should not be considered manslaughter or murder. Something like involuntary termination of a pregnancy should be against the law.

That's a way we could wrangle it to make it specifically illegal - as a crime against the person carrying the pregnancy (involuntary termination of said pregnancy against the carrier of said pregnancy's will), but still not be murder with all the implications there.

But then again, this would also probably fall under involuntary termination of a pregnancy, as it was most definitely not voluntary, and (oddly) it was a crime against the person themselves. Which we can do, incidentally - a person who tries to rob a convenience store, and the owner of the convenience store hits them in an aggravated manner, they can be often be charged with aggravated assault - for creating the situation where they got hit.

[Xmara]

I’m pro-life, but come on Alabama. It wasn’t the pregnant woman’s fault that she lost her child. She was the victim! The woman who shot her should be the one charged. What’s next? Charging women who suffer miscarriages with murder?

She wasn't a victim.

Okay, correction. I didn’t see the part where she started the fight. But the shooter should still be charged.

[Galloism]

2 things.
Understood, the question is did she have legal reason to shoot, and the cops are saying yes

The mother to be is the one who put her baby in danger by instigating the fight.

If you want to say the mother to be suffered enough with getting shot and losing the baby I would go along with that, but i am not seeing a basic issue with the bad actor pregnant or not is responsible for her actions.

I'm saying that it's my understanding that firing a warning shot at all is improper shooty behaviour, that one should only be shooting when one wants to kill something, be it a deer, a person, or a paper target. Firing actual live rounds just for the sake of making a loud noise is super dangerous.

This is actually super true.

And if you do something super dangerous and someone dies then I think that's a thing that people go to jail for.

This typically isn't, as we recognize a person who's being victimized by a crime isn't always making the most rational decisions.

And, incidentally, whether the fetus is a person or not for legal reasons is really really up for debate. I didn't really figure you to pick that side, exactly.

[Washington Resistance Army]

She wasn't a victim.

Okay, correction. I didn’t see the part where she started the fight. But the shooter should still be charged.

With what?

[Scomagia]

She wasn't a victim.

Okay, correction. I didn’t see the part where she started the fight. But the shooter should still be charged.

I don't think so. It was self defense.

[Ifreann]

I’m pro-life, but come on Alabama. It wasn’t the pregnant woman’s fault that she lost her child. She was the victim! The woman who shot her should be the one charged. What’s next? Charging women who suffer miscarriages with murder?

Yes, holding women criminally liable for miscarriages is probably the goal.

[Hanafuridake]

“The investigation showed that the only true victim in this was the unborn baby. It was the mother of the child who initiated and continued the fight which resulted in the death of her own unborn baby.”

Real life has become a self-parody.

[Genivaria]

This is the insane world that the pro-life position leads to.

[Ethel mermania]

I’m pro-life, but come on Alabama. It wasn’t the pregnant woman’s fault that she lost her child. She was the victim! The woman who shot her should be the one charged. What’s next? Charging women who suffer miscarriages with murder?

You have not read any of the articles have you?

[Loben The 2nd]

This is the insane world that the pro-life position leads to.

I small a strawman

[Genivaria]

This is the insane world that the pro-life position leads to.

I small a strawman

This is a hilarious statement considering what the topic is about.

[Scomagia]

This is the insane world that the pro-life position leads to.

Just out of curiosity, do you oppose legal penalties for women who regularly drink during pregnancy and later give birth to a child with FAS?

[Genivaria]

This is the insane world that the pro-life position leads to.

Just out of curiosity, do you oppose legal penalties for women who regularly drink during pregnancy and later give birth to a child with FAS?

To an extent I'd think that'd be fair.
Of course the key word there is 'child'.

I also am receiving input from my gf who has a friend who was born with FAS.
Her words are ''Tentatively yes, but we should only punish the mother if they knew the risks of drinking while pregnant. I would advocate for doctors being required to educate the mother of this when they inform the mother that they're pregnant."

[Galloism]

I’m pro-life, but come on Alabama. It wasn’t the pregnant woman’s fault that she lost her child. She was the victim! The woman who shot her should be the one charged. What’s next? Charging women who suffer miscarriages with murder?

Yes, holding women criminally liable for miscarriages is probably the goal.

I mean, there's a factor that there has to be a preexisting felony for felony murder rule to apply.

You can't charge people for accidentally causing the death of another person in sheer dumb chance. You can for accidentally causing the death of another in the commission of a felony.

[Gravlen]

^ this

It's obviously a shocking headline (perhaps because key info was omitted) that appears to be a grave injustice. However, it's legally sound. Each legal premise (crime to kill a fetus in this manner, assailant is at fault for injuries, manslaughter is applied for accidental murder) is sound and makes sense, and they were applied as the law demands. It won't get you as many retweets, but that's the reality of it.

Yeah, I mean... it's the logical application of all the relevant laws.

It's kind of a stupid result, because had she had intentionally wanted to kill the fetus and gotten it aborted, she'd be 100% in the clear, but because it was an unintentional result of another crime, then the felony murder/manslaughter rule applies, and she gets charged.

I don't know why you guys are talking about felony murder here, that doesn't apply.

She was charged with intentionally causing the death of her own unborn child.

The indictment against Jones, unsealed on Thursday, says Jones “intentionally caused the death of .... unborn baby Jones by initiating a fight knowing she was five months pregnant."

https://www.al.com/news/2019/06/its-not-fair-marshae-jones-faces-20-years-in-prison-in-unborn-childs-shooting-death.html

[Hanafuridake]

This is the insane world that the pro-life position leads to.

Just out of curiosity, do you oppose legal penalties for women who regularly drink during pregnancy and later give birth to a child with FAS?

Is this drawing parallels between that and this?

I don't think that they're comparable. One is a miscarriage the other is consciously choosing to continue a pregnancy to term, in which case there's a child.

[Gormwood]

I’m pro-life, but come on Alabama. It wasn’t the pregnant woman’s fault that she lost her child. She was the victim! The woman who shot her should be the one charged. What’s next? Charging women who suffer miscarriages with murder?

Yes, holding women criminally liable for miscarriages is probably the goal.

Until taking a morning after pill becomes capital murder.

[Godular]

2 things.
Understood, the question is did she have legal reason to shoot, and the cops are saying yes

The mother to be is the one who put her baby in danger by instigating the fight.

If you want to say the mother to be suffered enough with getting shot and losing the baby I would go along with that, but i am not seeing a basic issue with the bad actor pregnant or not is responsible for her actions.

I'm saying that it's my understanding that firing a warning shot at all is improper shooty behaviour, that one should only be shooting when one wants to kill something, be it a deer, a person, or a paper target. Firing actual live rounds just for the sake of making a loud noise is super dangerous. And if you do something super dangerous and someone dies then I think that's a thing that people go to jail for.

That's pretty much how self-defense works here in Texas. Shoot to Stop. Don't shoot to wound, scare, maim, or whatever, just put bullets in the bad guy until they stop being a threat. Aim at the center of mass, because anything else increases the risks of collateral injuries. The basic presumption is that if you're shooting in self-defense, you're shooting while freaking terrified so you're either minimizing the amount of thought going into opening fire or you're opening yourself up to 'you had other options'.

This is an odd situation where self-defense is found to go both ways. I'm in favor of the woman being able to control her own body, but the woman in this case instigated a confrontation and escalated it to the point that the other party felt it necessary to shoot in self-defense. I can see where the state is coming from in this instance, and the premise of my pro-choice arguments pretty much comes back around in support of the state IN THIS SPECIFIC CASE. Double edged sword and whatnot.

[Galloism]

Yeah, I mean... it's the logical application of all the relevant laws.

It's kind of a stupid result, because had she had intentionally wanted to kill the fetus and gotten it aborted, she'd be 100% in the clear, but because it was an unintentional result of another crime, then the felony murder/manslaughter rule applies, and she gets charged.

I don't know why you guys are talking about felony murder here, that doesn't apply.

She was charged with intentionally causing the death of her own unborn child.

The indictment against Jones, unsealed on Thursday, says Jones “intentionally caused the death of .... unborn baby Jones by initiating a fight knowing she was five months pregnant."

https://www.al.com/news/2019/06/its-not-fair-marshae-jones-faces-20-years-in-prison-in-unborn-childs-shooting-death.html

Ok, that's retarded.

[Andsed]

So is there any video recording of the fight? Because I don't think it has been cleared up whether it was just a warning shot that accidentally hit or if the women shot five times. Not to mention to see if firing a gun was actually appropriate in the situation.

[Gormwood]

I don't know why you guys are talking about felony murder here, that doesn't apply.

She was charged with intentionally causing the death of her own unborn child.

The indictment against Jones, unsealed on Thursday, says Jones “intentionally caused the death of .... unborn baby Jones by initiating a fight knowing she was five months pregnant."

https://www.al.com/news/2019/06/its-not-fair-marshae-jones-faces-20-years-in-prison-in-unborn-childs-shooting-death.html

Ok, that's retarded.

Welcome to Alabama Gilead.

[Godular]

I don't know why you guys are talking about felony murder here, that doesn't apply.

She was charged with intentionally causing the death of her own unborn child.

The indictment against Jones, unsealed on Thursday, says Jones “intentionally caused the death of .... unborn baby Jones by initiating a fight knowing she was five months pregnant."

https://www.al.com/news/2019/06/its-not-fair-marshae-jones-faces-20-years-in-prison-in-unborn-childs-shooting-death.html

Ok, that's retarded.

Okay, on that front I've got to agree. Negligent Homicide, maybe. But 'intentionally' carries the implication that the fetus' death was the objective of her actions.