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WW1 memorial cross can stay on public land, SCOTUS rules

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Nova Cyberia
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WW1 memorial cross can stay on public land, SCOTUS rules

Postby Nova Cyberia » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:53 pm

SCOTUS did a good.
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled Thursday that a 40-foot World War I memorial cross can stay on public land at a Maryland intersection.

The cross "has become a prominent community landmark, and its removal or radical alteration at this date would be seen by many not as a neutral act but as the manifestation of a hostility toward religion that has no place in our Establishment Clause traditions," the court wrote.

Writing for the majority, Justice Samuel Alito said that "contrary to respondents' intimations, there is no evidence of discriminatory intent in the selection of the design of the memorial or the decision of a Maryland commission to maintain it. The Religion Clause of the Constitution aims to foster a society in which people of all beliefs can live together harmoniously, and the presence of the Bladensburg Cross on the land where it has stood for so many years is fully consistent with that aim."

The decision was 7 to 2, but it had multiple parts and not all of the seven agreeing on every aspect. It reverses a lower court ruling that said the memorial is unconstitutional because it is on public land and maintained at taxpayer expense. The high court's ruling is a major victory for religious groups and the American Legion, which warned that if this cross had to be moved, so too would other crosses that serve as war memorials.

Alito argued that the cross had essentially become secular. He invoked the history of World War I memorials. Noting the rows and rows of crosses and Stars of David at cemeteries in Europe that memorialized those who died in that war, he said that established in people's minds the idea of crosses as war memorials back then.

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, in dissent, disagreed with Alito's history. She noted that it's clear what the purpose and meaning of the cross was from the start — it was religious. She argued Americans knew what it meant then and know what it means now.

"Decades ago," Ginsburg wrote, "this Court recognized that the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution demands governmental neutrality among religious faiths, and between religion and nonreligion. ... Numerous times since, the Court has reaffirmed the Constitution's commitment to neutrality. Today the Court erodes that neutrality commitment, diminishing precedent designed to preserve individual liberty and civic harmony in favor of a 'presumption of constitutionality for longstanding monuments, symbols, and practices.' "

She adds, "The Latin cross is the foremost symbol of the Christian faith, embodying the 'central theological claim of Christianity: that the son of God died on the cross, that he rose from the dead, and that his death and resurrection offer the possibility of eternal life.' ... Precisely because the cross symbolizes these sectarian beliefs, it is a common marker for the graves of Christian soldiers. For the same reason, using the cross as a war memorial does not transform it into a secular symbol, as the Courts of Appeals have uniformly recognized."

The decision could have sweeping implications in terms of symbols, like crosses and the Ten Commandments that are already constructed. Those that are already there are unlikely to be removed, but putting up new crosses or other religious symbols on public property very likely would not stand under Thursday's ruling.

The concrete cross at the center of the court's decision is located in the middle of a busy median strip and directly across the street from a large pawnshop in Bladensburg, Md.

It was erected nearly 100 years ago when bereaved mothers in Bladensburg decided to build a World War I memorial to honor their fallen sons. When they ran out of money, the American Legion took over the project. But by the 1930s, a local parks commission had taken over the memorial and the responsibility for its maintenance.

Today, the cross is more grungy than grand. The concrete is crumbling; a canvas tarp covers the top, and without the $100,000 that the parks commission has budgeted for repair, the monument looks like it may not be long for this world.

The American Humanist Association challenged the placement of the cross, contending that "there is no meaning to the Latin cross, other than Christianity." A federal appeals court agreed, declaring that its placement violated the Constitution's ban on establishment of religion. The appeals court ruled that the cross should be moved to a private location and funded without taxpayer money.

Now the Supreme Court has reversed that ruling.

In a particularly classy move a humanist group challenged the placement of a WW1 memorial cross in Maryland. SCOTUS disagreed with them, and so the cross can stay. Obviously, I agree with the majority here and believe that the cross simply memorializes those who died. Also, had this ruling gone the other way it could have had wide-reaching implications.

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:56 pm

Why was this even a question asked to the supreme court?

It reverses a lower court ruling that said the memorial is unconstitutional because it is on public land and maintained at taxpayer expense.


What the fuck was that lower court on?

The American Humanist Association challenged the placement of the cross, contending that "there is no meaning to the Latin cross, other than Christianity."

A cross was also used as a gravestone for soldiers mainly in WW1.

Why on earth would you want to remove a WW1 landmark?
Last edited by The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp on Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nationalist Teksas
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Postby Nationalist Teksas » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:59 pm

It's a war memorial, not a religious monument...
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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:01 pm

It's a WWI memorial. Remove stars from medals because the star can only mean that one is Muslim.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:06 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
The American Humanist Association challenged the placement of the cross, contending that "there is no meaning to the Latin cross, other than Christianity."

A cross was also used as a gravestone for soldiers mainly in WW1.

Why on earth would you want to remove a WW1 landmark?

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No State Here
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Postby No State Here » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:10 pm

Good. Why was this an issue other than butthurt people trying to frame it as religious?
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:12 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Why was this even a question asked to the supreme court?

It reverses a lower court ruling that said the memorial is unconstitutional because it is on public land and maintained at taxpayer expense.


What the fuck was that lower court on?

The American Humanist Association challenged the placement of the cross, contending that "there is no meaning to the Latin cross, other than Christianity."

A cross was also used as a gravestone for soldiers mainly in WW1.

Why on earth would you want to remove a WW1 landmark?


because uppity antiitheists groups like the AHA and FRFF try to use the establishment clause as a cudgel to wipe religion out of the public sphere. This case has actually has very broad reaching effect as Kavenaugh in his opinion derided the Lemon test as bad law, and called it effectively shelved. FRFF especially is taking a major set back to their agenda on this one.
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Postby Alvecia » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:29 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Why was this even a question asked to the supreme court?



What the fuck was that lower court on?


A cross was also used as a gravestone for soldiers mainly in WW1.

Why on earth would you want to remove a WW1 landmark?


because uppity antiitheists groups like the AHA and FRFF try to use the establishment clause as a cudgel to wipe religion out of the public sphere. This case has actually has very broad reaching effect as Kavenaugh in his opinion derided the Lemon test as bad law, and called it effectively shelved. FRFF especially is taking a major set back to their agenda on this one.

Alternatively perhaps they just don't like that Christianity claims to speak for the whole nation.

On this particular issue, I'd guess the question is "how many of those soldiers were Christians?".
The cross is iconcially speaking a symbol of the grave, but also iconically a symbol of Christianity.

Here the story reporting from an atheist perspective
And a summary of the arguments for the link averse
While supporters of the cross said it was a perfectly legal war memorial, the AHA argued that it was really just a giant advertisement for Christianity — maintained using taxpayer dollars via the Maryland-National Capitol Park and Planning Commission — and any reasonable person looking at the cross would agree.

You can read a longer history of the case right here, but before getting into the details of what the Court said, it’s important to recognize why the AHA and its allies felt they were in the right. The question the Supreme Court had to answer was this: “Does the Establishment Clause allow the government to permanently and prominently commemorate Christian veterans — and only Christian veterans — by funding, maintaining, using, and displaying a massive concrete Latin cross in the center of a heavily-trafficked intersection at the entrance of town?”

The AHA said the answer was no — and that a decision against them would be a mistake — for the following reasons:

1) The Bladensburg Cross violates the Establishment Clause.

The cross is Christian. It’s the symbol everyone associates with Christianity. And if the government is promoting this cross/memorial, it’s aligning itself with a particular religion. That’s illegal.

2) The Bladensburg Cross effectively denigrates the contributions of non-Christian veterans.

If this really is meant to be a war memorial, then using a Christian symbol sends the message that non-Christians who sacrificed their lives for this country need not be memorialized. Supporters may argue the memorial represents all veterans, but the symbol they’re using is not some universal symbol of sacrifice. It’s a symbol of one particular religion. Obviously.

3) A victory for the government would be bad news for Christians.

If this cross is declared legal, think about what that would mean: The Supreme Court would basically be saying the cross is not a uniquely Christian symbol but rather some generic symbol representing death. In other words, when you see the cross, don’t think of Jesus. The devout Christians who treat the cross seriously would likely take offense to that. The AHA says a ruling in favor of the government, for this reason, would be a “Pyrrhic victory” for Christians.

4) The fact that this Cross has been up for decades doesn’t make it legal.

History and tradition aren’t good reasons to let something illegal slide. The Supreme Court has even said as much when it comes to Establishment Clause cases. Hell, they struck down forced prayer in public schools even though we’d been doing that for a long time.

5) The Cross isn’t merely some passive display.

Supporters of the memorial argue that it doesn’t “force” you to become a Christian, so what’s the big deal? The AHA says that’s irrelevant. This is a giant cross in the middle of a busy intersection. The Supreme Court has previously said a smaller cross atop city hall was already “extreme” and an “obvious” violation of the law… so this has to be worse, right? In addition, groups have used the Bladensburg Cross as the centerpiece for “Town-sponsored events that include Christian prayer.” So don’t say it’s just a passive symbol.

6) Saying the Bladensburg Cross is illegal would not affect other Christian war memorials.

Despite rumblings to the contrary, there are very few stand-alone giant cross memorials on public property. This one is uniquely illegal.

7) The Lemon Test is a good way to analyze the legality of religious displays, and we don’t want to mess that up.

The “Lemon Test” was established by the Supreme Court in 1971 as a way to objectively decide whether a religious statute violates the law. It says the statute must be secular in nature, neither advance nor inhibit religion, and not create some excessive entanglement between church and state. If any of those prongs are violated, the statute is illegal.

The Bladensburg Cross advances Christianity. You could even say it creates entanglement between church and state. Therefore, it violates the Lemon Test. To say the cross is legal would mean throwing away the Lemon Test and a standard that has worked for several decades. Why mess with something that’s not broken?

8 ) No one’s asking for the Bladensburg Cross to be destroyed.

While one possible solution is to remove the “arms” of the cross and create a secular “obelisk” memorial, the AHA would be perfectly fine with it being moved to private property.

I would also note that one of the amicus briefs in the case raised another concern: Standing.

While the government wanted this case judged on its merits, many of their advocates wanted the case dismissed on the grounds that the people suing don’t really have legal justification for doing so. In response, a number of law professors told the Court to ignore that line of thinking because dismissing the case on those grounds would ruin the whole concept of standing with regards to illegal religious displays.

If exposure to a government sponsored religious display is categorically insufficient to confer standing, then what is being displayed does not matter. There would be no standing in any religious-display case, however egregious its facts.



This Court’s Establishment Clause jurisprudence has been grounded in sensitivity and nuance. But these standing arguments are capable of neither. They would sweep aside generations of Establishment Clause doctrine and all the sensitivity and nuance embedded therein. These arguments are ones the Court should resist.


It’s a fair point: If the people who drive by this cross every day, as residents of the city, can’t complain about the promotion of Christianity, who can?

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No State Here
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Postby No State Here » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:30 pm

Alvecia wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
because uppity antiitheists groups like the AHA and FRFF try to use the establishment clause as a cudgel to wipe religion out of the public sphere. This case has actually has very broad reaching effect as Kavenaugh in his opinion derided the Lemon test as bad law, and called it effectively shelved. FRFF especially is taking a major set back to their agenda on this one.

Alternatively perhaps they just don't like that Christianity claims to speak for the whole nation.

On this particular issue, I'd guess the question is "how many of those soldiers were Christians?".
The cross is iconcially speaking a symbol of the grave, but also iconically a symbol of Christianity.

Here the story reporting from an atheist perspective
And a summary of the arguments for the link averse
While supporters of the cross said it was a perfectly legal war memorial, the AHA argued that it was really just a giant advertisement for Christianity — maintained using taxpayer dollars via the Maryland-National Capitol Park and Planning Commission — and any reasonable person looking at the cross would agree.

You can read a longer history of the case right here, but before getting into the details of what the Court said, it’s important to recognize why the AHA and its allies felt they were in the right. The question the Supreme Court had to answer was this: “Does the Establishment Clause allow the government to permanently and prominently commemorate Christian veterans — and only Christian veterans — by funding, maintaining, using, and displaying a massive concrete Latin cross in the center of a heavily-trafficked intersection at the entrance of town?”

The AHA said the answer was no — and that a decision against them would be a mistake — for the following reasons:

1) The Bladensburg Cross violates the Establishment Clause.

The cross is Christian. It’s the symbol everyone associates with Christianity. And if the government is promoting this cross/memorial, it’s aligning itself with a particular religion. That’s illegal.

2) The Bladensburg Cross effectively denigrates the contributions of non-Christian veterans.

If this really is meant to be a war memorial, then using a Christian symbol sends the message that non-Christians who sacrificed their lives for this country need not be memorialized. Supporters may argue the memorial represents all veterans, but the symbol they’re using is not some universal symbol of sacrifice. It’s a symbol of one particular religion. Obviously.

3) A victory for the government would be bad news for Christians.

If this cross is declared legal, think about what that would mean: The Supreme Court would basically be saying the cross is not a uniquely Christian symbol but rather some generic symbol representing death. In other words, when you see the cross, don’t think of Jesus. The devout Christians who treat the cross seriously would likely take offense to that. The AHA says a ruling in favor of the government, for this reason, would be a “Pyrrhic victory” for Christians.

4) The fact that this Cross has been up for decades doesn’t make it legal.

History and tradition aren’t good reasons to let something illegal slide. The Supreme Court has even said as much when it comes to Establishment Clause cases. Hell, they struck down forced prayer in public schools even though we’d been doing that for a long time.

5) The Cross isn’t merely some passive display.

Supporters of the memorial argue that it doesn’t “force” you to become a Christian, so what’s the big deal? The AHA says that’s irrelevant. This is a giant cross in the middle of a busy intersection. The Supreme Court has previously said a smaller cross atop city hall was already “extreme” and an “obvious” violation of the law… so this has to be worse, right? In addition, groups have used the Bladensburg Cross as the centerpiece for “Town-sponsored events that include Christian prayer.” So don’t say it’s just a passive symbol.

6) Saying the Bladensburg Cross is illegal would not affect other Christian war memorials.

Despite rumblings to the contrary, there are very few stand-alone giant cross memorials on public property. This one is uniquely illegal.

7) The Lemon Test is a good way to analyze the legality of religious displays, and we don’t want to mess that up.

The “Lemon Test” was established by the Supreme Court in 1971 as a way to objectively decide whether a religious statute violates the law. It says the statute must be secular in nature, neither advance nor inhibit religion, and not create some excessive entanglement between church and state. If any of those prongs are violated, the statute is illegal.

The Bladensburg Cross advances Christianity. You could even say it creates entanglement between church and state. Therefore, it violates the Lemon Test. To say the cross is legal would mean throwing away the Lemon Test and a standard that has worked for several decades. Why mess with something that’s not broken?

8 ) No one’s asking for the Bladensburg Cross to be destroyed.

While one possible solution is to remove the “arms” of the cross and create a secular “obelisk” memorial, the AHA would be perfectly fine with it being moved to private property.

I would also note that one of the amicus briefs in the case raised another concern: Standing.

While the government wanted this case judged on its merits, many of their advocates wanted the case dismissed on the grounds that the people suing don’t really have legal justification for doing so. In response, a number of law professors told the Court to ignore that line of thinking because dismissing the case on those grounds would ruin the whole concept of standing with regards to illegal religious displays.



It’s a fair point: If the people who drive by this cross every day, as residents of the city, can’t complain about the promotion of Christianity, who can?

I’m an atheist too, but if someone wants to put up a cross on public land that doesn’t actively harm me, I don’t have a problem
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Mitheldalond
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Postby Mitheldalond » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:32 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
It reverses a lower court ruling that said the memorial is unconstitutional because it is on public land and maintained at taxpayer expense.
...
A federal appeals court [declared] that its placement violated the Constitution's ban on establishment of religion. The appeals court ruled that the cross should be moved to a private location and funded without taxpayer money.

Apparently, that Appeals Court needs to go back to law school. In the US at least, "public land" isn't owned by the government. It's owned by the citizens of the US as a whole, and managed by the government. This is in contrast to federal- or state-owned land which actually is owned by the government.

Having a cross on public land can't violate the separation of church and state because the government technically doesn't own the land (the American people do). In fact, banning people from building/having a cross on public land because it's a symbol of a particular religion would be violating separation of church and state because that would be the government directly discriminating against a particular religion.

Also, I'm pretty sure an Appeals Court doesn't have the authority to be ruling on the Constitutionality of anything in the first place. That power belongs exclusively to the Supreme Court.
Last edited by Mitheldalond on Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:50 pm

No State Here wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Alternatively perhaps they just don't like that Christianity claims to speak for the whole nation.

On this particular issue, I'd guess the question is "how many of those soldiers were Christians?".
The cross is iconcially speaking a symbol of the grave, but also iconically a symbol of Christianity.

Here the story reporting from an atheist perspective
And a summary of the arguments for the link averse

I’m an atheist too, but if someone wants to put up a cross on public land that doesn’t actively harm me, I don’t have a problem

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Postby Ors Might » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:54 pm

This was a really dumb case to begin with. Symbols are perfectly capable of meaning more than one thing.
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:55 pm

SO long as we can put up other religious symbols as memorials of WW1 in the same location have at it.
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:56 pm

Neutraligon wrote:SO long as we can put up other religious symbols as memorials of WW1 in the same location have at it.

It'd be a bit of a squeeze, but you could probably get quite a few more in there
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No State Here
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Postby No State Here » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:57 pm

Neutraligon wrote:SO long as we can put up other religious symbols as memorials of WW1 in the same location have at it.

Crosses for WW1 is perfectly reasonable, so is I guess crescents or Stars of David.

Stars of Davids are perfectly appropriate for WW2 as well, but putting up a swastika to remember WW2 claiming it’s Hindu is where I draw the line
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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:58 pm

Alvecia wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:SO long as we can put up other religious symbols as memorials of WW1 in the same location have at it.

It'd be a bit of a squeeze, but you could probably get quite a few more in there
Image

Would be a little awkward looking though.
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Postby Aeritai » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:59 pm

I am glad the Cross is staying it will be both disrespectful to the Christian community and to the fallen soldiers. If it was removed.
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Postby Side 3 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:00 pm

Well you see, that's not a cross. That is a "t", for "tolerance".
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:00 pm

Ors Might wrote:
Alvecia wrote:It'd be a bit of a squeeze, but you could probably get quite a few more in there
Image

Would be a little awkward looking though.

Looking on Google Maps, there's actually quite a bit more room to the sides. The picture makes it look like a roundabout, but it's more like one area of a 6 point crossroad.

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Postby Valrifell » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:00 pm

Why do war memorials necessarily need to invoke religious iconography, again?
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No State Here
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Postby No State Here » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:02 pm

Valrifell wrote:Why do war memorials necessarily need to invoke religious iconography, again?

The cross as a grave/memorial has been historically used by Christians for reasons that I hope are obvious. Considering the vast majority of WW1 casualties were Christians, it adds an extra bonus of religious honor, and I say this as an atheist.
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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:03 pm

Alvecia wrote:
Ors Might wrote:Would be a little awkward looking though.

Looking on Google Maps, there's actually quite a bit more room to the sides. The picture makes it look like a roundabout, but it's more like one area of a 6 point crossroad.

Yeah I get that but in my personal experience it’s difficult to make different religious iconography work together in an aesthetically pleasing way.

Valrifell wrote:Why do war memorials necessarily need to invoke religious iconography, again?

Religion is pretty heavily involved in how most people handle loss. Not a huge stretch to apply that to mourning rituals.
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:03 pm

No State Here wrote:
Valrifell wrote:Why do war memorials necessarily need to invoke religious iconography, again?

The cross as a grave/memorial has been historically used by Christians for reasons that I hope are obvious. Considering the vast majority of WW1 casualties were Christians, it adds an extra bonus of religious honor, and I say this as an atheist.

That's a pretty shitty reason tbh.
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:04 pm

Ors Might wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Looking on Google Maps, there's actually quite a bit more room to the sides. The picture makes it look like a roundabout, but it's more like one area of a 6 point crossroad.

Yeah I get that but in my personal experience it’s difficult to make different religious iconography work together in an aesthetically pleasing way.

Fair. They do tend to be quite structurally distinct.

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Valrifell
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Postby Valrifell » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:06 pm

Ors Might wrote:
Valrifell wrote:Why do war memorials necessarily need to invoke religious iconography, again?

Religion is pretty heavily involved in how most people handle loss. Not a huge stretch to apply that to mourning rituals.


That makes sense for a headstone, sure, but it's commemorating everyone who died in WW1 and while the overwhelming majority of them were Christian, it's a tad presumptuous to assume they all were. More generally, as time passes, less and less of those dying can be assumed to be religious and christian as in line with general population trends, and it's clearly possible to have war monuments without invoking such imagery (look at Vietnam for one).
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