Creationism in Public Schools

[Arthenius]

I don't think this topic should should be placed under the federal government level.

But you know that, unless a government actively legislates on it, plenty of schools will take the opportunity to just teach creationism, right? This is an issue which needs legislation.

Aww, boo-hoo. "I think the federal government should unilaterally decide civil issues above the rest of the state because mah is afraid the "evil conservatives" will get to decide how things operate in their area."

[Thermodolia]

But you know that, unless a government actively legislates on it, plenty of schools will take the opportunity to just teach creationism, right? This is an issue which needs legislation.

Aww, boo-hoo. "I think the federal government should unilaterally decide civil issues above the rest of the state because mah is afraid the "evil conservatives" will get to decide how things operate in their area."

We are talking about our future children here. We shouldn’t be teaching them dumbass shit because muh religion

[New Legland]

But you know that, unless a government actively legislates on it, plenty of schools will take the opportunity to just teach creationism, right? This is an issue which needs legislation.

Aww, boo-hoo. "I think the federal government should unilaterally decide civil issues above the rest of the state because mah is afraid the "evil conservatives" will get to decide how things operate in their area."

Nice you don't think people teaching lies in school shouldn't be a cause for alarm.

[Arthenius]

Aww, boo-hoo. "I think the federal government should unilaterally decide civil issues above the rest of the state because mah is afraid the "evil conservatives" will get to decide how things operate in their area."

We are talking about our future children here. We shouldn’t be teaching them dumbass shit because muh religion

I'm not that religious myself but I can also acknowledge the liberty for states and local communities to operate more how they desire.
It's also a shitty argument when you're saying the higher level of the government should step in because everyone else will otherwise rebel against what you happen to believe ought to happen.

[Rastrian]

But you know that, unless a government actively legislates on it, plenty of schools will take the opportunity to just teach creationism, right? This is an issue which needs legislation.

Aww, boo-hoo. "I think the federal government should unilaterally decide civil issues above the rest of the state because mah is afraid the "evil conservatives" will get to decide how things operate in their area."

As Thermodolia and New Legland have both said, this is not a matter of civil liberty, it's a matter of human rights. Everyone is awarded the right to the best education we can give them. If we sully that education by teaching blatant falsehoods, it's only the children, as well as all future humans, who come off worse for it.

[Arthenius]

Aww, boo-hoo. "I think the federal government should unilaterally decide civil issues above the rest of the state because mah is afraid the "evil conservatives" will get to decide how things operate in their area."

Nice you don't think people teaching lies in school shouldn't be a cause for alarm.

People aren't always wrong or stupid about everything just because they may have a different idea about one thing.

[Thermodolia]

We are talking about our future children here. We shouldn’t be teaching them dumbass shit because muh religion

I'm not that religious myself but I can also acknowledge the liberty for states and local communities to operate more how they desire.

The quality education of children outweighs their rights to be idiots.

It's also a shitty argument when you're saying the higher level of the government should step in because everyone else will otherwise rebel against what you happen to believe ought to happen.

Not really. It’s more of saying the lower levels of government can’t get their shit together so we’ll bring in a level that can

[Rastrian]

Nice you don't think people teaching lies in school shouldn't be a cause for alarm.

People aren't always wrong or stupid about everything just because they may have a different idea are wrong or stupid about one thing.

FTFY.

Even if that is the case, shouldn't we then be ensuring that what is correct is taught? As in, if we're teaching a science class, teach the most up-to-date science we have rather than myths? If we taught mathematics, and someone said "Well I believe that 1+1+1=1, and that should be taught in maths class", the teaching and mathematics communities would shout them down, "muh civil liberties" be damned. This issue is no different. When we're deciding between something that's right according to the science we have or something that is wrong at best, we shouldn't be saying that both deserve an equal platform, or that some group should be able to decide to teach the wrong one instead of the right one.

[Arthenius]

I realize now I may have gotten a bit ahead of myself on the argument here.
I should have said that schools and churches are different places.

[Jolthig]

Creationism is not science and should not be taught in public schools, period. You are free to believe what you want on your own but science education must teach scientific concepts...it's science education, not religious education. I also wouldn't want teachers without a background in religious education teaching religious themes, especially if they adhere to a different religious belief. It would also open up a whole can of worms as the state would then have to determine which creation accounts are acceptable for teaching students, of which there are literally hundreds if not thousands around the world.

Exactly. I even acknowledge my position of theistic evolution as not scientific but personal beliefs and opinion.

[Rastrian]

I realize now I may have gotten a bit ahead of myself on the argument here.
I should have said that schools and churches are different places.

I mean, the entire discussion is about public schools, so yeah.
I have nothing against creationism being taught, just in a multi-faith religious education class or in a church. It should never be taught in the science classroom.

[Arthenius]

I realize now I may have gotten a bit ahead of myself on the argument here.
I should have said that schools and churches are different places.

I mean, the entire discussion is about public schools, so yeah.
I have nothing against creationism being taught, just in a multi-faith religious education class or in a church. It should never be taught in the science classroom.

Gotcha. I apologize for that.

[New Legland]

Nice you don't think people teaching lies in school shouldn't be a cause for alarm.

People aren't always wrong or stupid about everything just because they may have a different idea about one thing.

Except creationism is blatantly wrong. This isn't a matter of opinion. If you think it's fine to teach creationism, you must also think it's fine to teach anti-vaccination, the flat Earth, that 2+2=5, etc.

[Vetalia]

Exactly. I even acknowledge my position of theistic evolution as not scientific but personal beliefs and opinion.

As a fellow theistic evolutionist I wholeheartedly agree...science education is about the how, not the why.

[Ecradia]

Geneviev, since you have repeatedly stated that there is evidence for YEC, I challenge you to provide this thread with that proof beyond just saying "There's proof for Young Earth Creationism." For me, at the very least, this evidence would have to satisfy 4 criteria before I even consider it.

1. It must not be conducted by, funded by, or related to a religious organization or an organization with the express purpose of proving creationism or disproving evolution. (Conflicts of interest are bad, you know.)
2. It must be falsifiable. (One of the most basic preconditions of science. If it can't be falsified, it isn't science, no ifs, ands, or buts.)
3. It must be peer-reviewed. (Otherwise anyone can just say anything, and it is meaningless.)
4. It is more than just a list of scientists. (Such a thing proves nothing, and is nothing more than an appeal to authority fallacy.)

Good luck. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. Hell, if there are any other Young Earth Creationists here, I'll extend the invitation to them, too.

[Jolthig]

Exactly. I even acknowledge my position of theistic evolution as not scientific but personal beliefs and opinion.

As a fellow theistic evolutionist I wholeheartedly agree...science education is about the how, not the why.

Exactly. Science just focuses on the nature of the universe. Not any particular belief. As long as one has a basic understanding of science, we can advance humanity greatly if we all think critically and not based on conjecture.

[Vetalia]

Exactly. Science just focuses on the nature of the universe. Not any particular belief. As long as one has a basic understanding of science, we can advance humanity greatly if we all think critically and not based on conjecture.

Absolutely, a population well-educated in scientific knowledge benefits all of us.

I'm personally very troubled by most creationist arguments because they suggest that God is either a liar or that He permitted Satan unprecedented powers to deceive the human race in its efforts to understand the universe we inhabit to no benefit.

[Farnhamia]

Exactly. Science just focuses on the nature of the universe. Not any particular belief. As long as one has a basic understanding of science, we can advance humanity greatly if we all think critically and not based on conjecture.

Absolutely, a population well-educated in scientific knowledge benefits all of us.

I'm personally very troubled by most creationist arguments because they suggest that God is either a liar or that He permitted Satan unprecedented powers to deceive the human race in its efforts to understand the universe we inhabit to no benefit.

Well, but isn't deceiving the human race Satan's job? And God certainly gave him the powers to do that job, otherwise, what's the point? If you can beat the Devil with a simple "LOL ... no" then salvation is kind of cheapened, isn't it?

[Vetalia]

Well, but isn't deceiving the human race Satan's job? And God certainly gave him the powers to do that job, otherwise, what's the point? If you can beat the Devil with a simple "LOL ... no" then salvation is kind of cheapened, isn't it?

Well, sure, but not to that level. He would have to give Satan the power to fabricate the entire body of human knowledge of physics, geology, biology, chemistry and astronomy solely for the purpose of weakening the faith of a small number of people. Demonic temptations tend to be of the more personal sort, not affecting creation as a whole.

[Farnhamia]

Well, but isn't deceiving the human race Satan's job? And God certainly gave him the powers to do that job, otherwise, what's the point? If you can beat the Devil with a simple "LOL ... no" then salvation is kind of cheapened, isn't it?

Well, sure, but not to that level. He would have to give Satan the power to fabricate the entire body of human knowledge of physics, geology, biology, chemistry and astronomy solely for the purpose of weakening the faith of a small number of people. Demonic temptations tend to be of the more personal sort, not affecting creation as a whole.

Perhaps, but if you buy into the existence of God and the Devil, don't you have also accept the fact that the Devil has that much power? Not as much as God, no, like Melkor, Satan cannot create, he can only corrupt. If the Devil were that weak, that unbelievable, then "... la plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu’il n’existe pas!" has no meaning, and it makes The Usual Suspects a lesser film.

I don't know, I'm playing You-Know-Who's advocate here, but ... it's like playing a Total War game on easy/easy, not much of a challenge.

Do reply but I feel like we're drifting away from the topic.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Nice you don't think people teaching lies in school shouldn't be a cause for alarm.

People aren't always wrong or stupid about everything just because they may have a different idea about one thing.

Ok, here's an illustration of the magnitude of wrong YEC is suffering from. Now, when will we give equal attention to all these alternate facts in our publicly funded science classes?

[Jolthig]

Exactly. Science just focuses on the nature of the universe. Not any particular belief. As long as one has a basic understanding of science, we can advance humanity greatly if we all think critically and not based on conjecture.

Absolutely, a population well-educated in scientific knowledge benefits all of us.

I'm personally very troubled by most creationist arguments because they suggest that God is either a liar or that He permitted Satan unprecedented powers to deceive the human race in its efforts to understand the universe we inhabit to no benefit.

Which is ironic because it is Satan who has ironically deceived many of them..

[Jolthig]

We are talking about our future children here. We shouldn’t be teaching them dumbass shit because muh religion

I'm not that religious myself but I can also acknowledge the liberty for states and local communities to operate more how they desire.
It's also a shitty argument when you're saying the higher level of the government should step in because everyone else will otherwise rebel against what you happen to believe ought to happen.

No. We need a stronger federal government (well, it already is strong), not less. Let's not go back to the pre-Civil War days, mkay?

[Genivaria]

I think creation and evolution should both be taught equally so students in public schools can choose for themselves what they believe. Although it would be unconstitutional if only the Christian perspective is taught, other religions could also be taught.

Then teach about religions in a theology class, creation isn't science so it doesn't belong in a science class.

[Bombadil]

I've changed my mind, I think creationism should be taught, as a side project as to how to effectively debunk junk science.