Creationism in Public Schools

[Rastrian]

Humans are almost uniquely gifted at finding shapes in random objects. A quick google search of "pareidolia" will show you that.

Funnily enough, something that developed as an evolutionary advantage

It is true. Being able to detect possible predators is more advantageous than spending the time to work out if it is an actual predator.

[WayNeacTia]

In your opinion.

Not really. You’re essentially pulling an ‘I don’t know, ergo God’ argument.

No I'm not. I stated from the beginning it was my belief. You have yours, I have mine. The difference is, I am not going out of my way to shit on yours.You can't say the same. Also, I never once stated it believe in "God". I said I believe there is likely a higher power. For all we know, we are in a fucking snow globe sitting on some aliens desk. Or a laboratory experiment. I can't prove this is the case, can you prove it isn't? They still don't know what caused the Big Bang.

Who's to say who is right? Guess one will have to wait until they die to really know, now won't we? I am not really in in hurry to find out, but the wait IMO will be worth it.

[Rastrian]

You have yours, I have mine.

can you prove it isn't?

Guess one will have to wait until they die to really know

That's a lot of theist clichés you have there...

[Alvecia]

Not really. You’re essentially pulling an ‘I don’t know, ergo God’ argument.

No I'm not. I stated from the beginning it was my belief. You have yours, I have mine. The difference is, I am not going out of my way to shit on yours.You can't say the same. Also, I never once stated it believe in "God". I said I believe there is likely a higher power. For all we know, we are in a fucking snow globe sitting on some aliens desk. Or a laboratory experiment. I can't prove this is the case, can you prove it isn't? They still don't know what caused the Big Bang.

Who's to say who is right? Guess one will have to wait until they die to really know, now won't we? I am not really in in hurry to find out, but the wait IMO will be worth it.

Does space exist? Or is it just a carpet painted by god?
Who's to say who is right? I guess both opinions must be equally valid.

[Novum Imperium Atlanticum]

The god as a watchmaker idea as proposed by Newton has long been proven wrong. If anything, if creationists are so hung up on proof, then I'd say the burden of proving the existence of god is on them. Not through the asinine misrepresentation of shoehorned science, but the proof, if any, of the existence of god. Moreover, if god is so powerful as described in the old testament, why has he never shown as anything of that sort ever again? No parting of the red sea, no destruction of a third of the Israelites, no spaceship landing before Ezekiel (lol). Tbh, I find it a tad petty to whine about the denial of evolution, yet similtaneously cherry pick your way in an attempt to prove the existence of god, whereas god ought to be powerful enough to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and easily do it again. Or a nice flash flood for instance. Just my two cents.

[WayNeacTia]

You have yours, I have mine.

can you prove it isn't?

Guess one will have to wait until they die to really know

That's a lot of theist clichés you have there...

No there not. As an atheist you don't believe in anything you can't see, and that's great. We could argue this until the end of time and never agree, so what exactly are you hoping to accomplish. Do you think people are all of a sudden just going to say that you are right and give up their beliefs? If so, I wish you the best of luck, as you will need as much as you can get.

Does space exist? Or is it just a carpet painted by god?
Who's to say who is right? I guess both opinions must be equally valid.

Space is proven to exist. I never disputed that. You on the other hand may want to keep a fire extinguisher around, as strawmen have a nasty habit of catching fire.

[Alvecia]

That's a lot of theist clichés you have there...

No there not. As an atheist you don't believe in anything you can't see, and that's great. We could argue this until the end of time and never agree, so what exactly are you hoping to accomplish. Do you think people are all of a sudden just going to say that you are right and give up their beliefs? If so, I wish you the best of luck, as you will need as much as you can get.

Does space exist? Or is it just a carpet painted by god?
Who's to say who is right? I guess both opinions must be equally valid.

Space is proven to exist. I never disputed that. You on the other hand may want to keep a fire extinguisher around, as strawmen have a nasty habit of catching fire.

So unicorns fit the bill then? Never been disproven, after all.

[Rastrian]

That's a lot of theist clichés you have there...

No there not.

Yes, they are.

"You have yours, I have mine" is the classic "I'll respect your beliefs if you respect mine". Beliefs are not automatically deserving of respect. Respect is always earned.
"Can you prove it isn't" is the utmost in silly arguing. You have to present evidence for something in order to attempt to disprove that evidence.
"Guess one will have to wait until they die to really know" is essentially Pascal's wager disguised as a slightly more open point.

As an atheist you don't believe in anything you can't see, and that's great.

Talk about strawmen.

We could argue this until the end of time and never agree, so what exactly are you hoping to accomplish. Do you think people are all of a sudden just going to say that you are right and give up their beliefs? If so, I wish you the best of luck, as you will need as much as you can get.

No. I just want theists to present actual points rather than just posting clichés and expecting me to respect their position. I can debate with points. I won't debate with clichés.

[WayNeacTia]

No there not. As an atheist you don't believe in anything you can't see, and that's great. We could argue this until the end of time and never agree, so what exactly are you hoping to accomplish. Do you think people are all of a sudden just going to say that you are right and give up their beliefs? If so, I wish you the best of luck, as you will need as much as you can get.



Space is proven to exist. I never disputed that. You on the other hand may want to keep a fire extinguisher around, as strawmen have a nasty habit of catching fire.

So unicorns fit the bill then? Never been disproven, after all.

As I said, keep a fire extinguisher handy for that strawman.

[Rastrian]

So unicorns fit the bill then? Never been disproven, after all.

As I said, keep a fire extinguisher handy for that strawman.

Not a strawman. Just the logical extension of your point.

Arguing to the point of being silly is not automatically strawmanning. It's strawmanning if it deliberately misrepresents the logical equation you're making. You're saying, in order for something to be untrue, it must be disproven. Unicorns, therefore, fit the bill for things which aren't untrue, as do leprechauns, gods and space-penguins named Jeff.

[Pelanesomunk]

Evolution should be the only thing taught in school. If people want their kids to be taught creationism then they can send them to their local church or religious school to learn it.

[Alvecia]

So unicorns fit the bill then? Never been disproven, after all.

As I said, keep a fire extinguisher handy for that strawman.

TIL analogies are made of straw

[Alvecia]

As I said, keep a fire extinguisher handy for that strawman.

Not a strawman. Just the logical extension of your point.

Arguing to the point of being silly is not automatically strawmanning. It's strawmanning if it deliberately misrepresents the logical equation you're making. You're saying, in order for something to be untrue, it must be disproven. Unicorns, therefore, fit the bill for things which aren't untrue, as do leprechauns, gods and space-penguins named Jeff.

Or famously, the dragon in my garage

[Ifreann]

Not really. You’re essentially pulling an ‘I don’t know, ergo God’ argument.

No I'm not. I stated from the beginning it was my belief. You have yours, I have mine. The difference is, I am not going out of my way to shit on yours.You can't say the same. Also, I never once stated it believe in "God". I said I believe there is likely a higher power. For all we know, we are in a fucking snow globe sitting on some aliens desk. Or a laboratory experiment. I can't prove this is the case, can you prove it isn't? They still don't know what caused the Big Bang.

Who's to say who is right? Guess one will have to wait until they die to really know, now won't we? I am not really in in hurry to find out, but the wait IMO will be worth it.

How will dying confirm anything about the nature of the universe to us? Suppose we are in a snow globe on an alien's desk. How will we find out about that when we die? Suppose the Big Bang was a laboratory experiment. How will dying clue us in on that?

If there is an afterlife then we will find out about it when we die, yes. But that will only tell us that there is an afterlife. Maybe the afterlife is part of the same snow globe. Or the same lab experiment.

[WayNeacTia]

If there is an afterlife then we will find out about it when we die, yes. But that will only tell us that there is an afterlife. Maybe the afterlife is part of the same snow globe. Or the same lab experiment.

Very possible indeed. Hell George Lucas could have been right all along, and The Force actually exists.

[Tekania]

Here's the thing, Evolution is a predictive..... that is why it's a theory. We can use the theory to make predictions about observations or to predict future discoveries. This is something creationism lacks. A good example of this is how tiktaalik was discovered. The discovery of this creature was through prediction based upon the dictates of the evolutionary model. Tiktaalik is an early link between tetrapods and fish. We would expect if evolution to be true and the understanding of the fossil record to be accurate that such a creature would exist. So the understanding of the fossil record is used to make a prediction that if we look in rock formation of the correct age that is the result of a particular environment that for such a creature to be in such a transition that we would would have a chance of finding such a fossil. We looked for those formations of the right period and found fossils of the creature.

The "Randomness" argument is a red herring brought up by creationists. Randomness has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. Evolution is a series of mechanisms playing out and is predictive. We have observed these mechanism create new species. And we have used multiple elements of the theory and its mechanisms to predict and make new discoveries that further substantiate the theory. Creationism doesn't do that.

[WayNeacTia]

The "Randomness" argument is a red herring brought up by creationists.

Who argued randomness was involved in evolution?

[Seangoli]

The "Randomness" argument is a red herring brought up by creationists.

Who argued randomness was involved in evolution?

Its prett common among creationists, tbh.

[WayNeacTia]

Who argued randomness was involved in evolution?

Its prett common among creationists, tbh.

Whats so random between say a tiger and a lion, or a house cat for that matter?

[Salandriagado]

Yes it is.

In your opinion.

There's no opinion necessary. There's plenty of data out there.

[Salandriagado]

What would you define as "not random enough"?

It's subjective. I just personally believe that the universe isn't random enough. Take the Pillars of Creation for example. Or the Horsehead Nebula. Or the Hand of God. Or the Einstein Cross. IMHO, if the Universe were totally random, these things probably wouldn't form like they do. Like I said, it is just my opinion. Not going to shit on anyone for not sharing it. Just sharing what I believe.

All literally just giant amorphous clouds of gas that happen to look a bit like something when viewed from a particular direction. There's no opinion here: you're just wrong.

[Page]

What would you define as "not random enough"?

It's subjective. I just personally believe that the universe isn't random enough. Take the Pillars of Creation for example. Or the Horsehead Nebula. Or the Hand of God. Or the Einstein Cross. IMHO, if the Universe were totally random, these things probably wouldn't form like they do. Like I said, it is just my opinion. Not going to shit on anyone for not sharing it. Just sharing what I believe.

These are literally just groups of stars. Their shapes aren't special, humans just think so because our brains are susceptible to pareidolia.

[Realm of Coffeecakes]

I think that students should hear both sides of the debate. After all, schools should equip kids to become critical thinkers and not everything about evolution makes sense.

[Farnhamia]

I think that students should hear both sides of the debate. After all, schools should equip kids to become critical thinkers and not everything about evolution makes sense.

What doesn't make sense?

[Estanglia]

I think that students should hear both sides of the debate. After all, schools should equip kids to become critical thinkers and not everything about evolution makes sense.

Teaching kids to become critical thinkers shouldn't involve teaching them falsehoods as if they were as valid as the commonly accepted theory, which also has much more evidence than the falsehood.