Iran vs the US Thread

[Novus America]

Irate fishermen?

The saudis? USN pilots who saw red when they saw a Japanese flagged ship?

False flagging Saudis/Emiratis/Israelis would fit the bill just as well as Iranians would. Or Americans. We had the idea as far back as 1960 with Cuba and Operation Northwoods.

Elements in the US considered it the 60s but the government never tried it, and it still got out.
The US sucks at keeping secrets.
Definitely not the US.

While it is possible Israel/UAE/Saudis did it, Iran is definitely the most likely.

[Uan aa Boa]

Also given the bizarre structure of the regime it is possible one part of the regime has no understanding of what another part is doing.

That's certainly true.

"The President's efforts to influence the investigation were mostly unsuccessful, but that is largely because the persons who surrounded the President declined to carry out orders or accede to his requests."

Oh wait, you were talking about Iran.

[Novus America]

Also given the bizarre structure of the regime it is possible one part of the regime has no understanding of what another part is doing.

That's certainly true.

"The President's efforts to influence the investigation were mostly unsuccessful, but that is largely because the persons who surrounded the President declined to carry out orders or accede to his requests."

Oh wait, you were talking about Iran.

Nice whataboutism, are you actually going to address my point?

Obviously I was. Despite the fact the US government does not always work as one entity, it is not remotely to the same degree as the Iranian government, which has two separate parallel governments (with their own militaries and courts) and theses are further divided into a confused mess of corrupt fiefdoms.

[Uan aa Boa]

Nice whataboutism, are you actually going to address my point?

Whataboutism is the correct response to your point. I'm not claiming that Iran is a paragon of political stability, but your point was

The Iranian regime doing irrational insane things is not unknown
... Insert example here ...
WTF was the logic there?

I would not say everyone in the Iranian regime is incapable of rational thought.
But certainly there are people in the Iranian regime that are not completely rational.

Also given the bizarre structure of the regime it is possible one part of the regime has no understanding of what another part is doing.

You can change the example and replace the word Iranian with the word American and it will remain just as valid. You want to portray this as a dispute between the United States of Sensible and the Islamic Revolutionary Republic of Mental, but it isn't that simple.

[Novus America]

Nice whataboutism, are you actually going to address my point?

Whataboutism is the correct response to your point. I'm not claiming that Iran is a paragon of political stability, but your point was

The Iranian regime doing irrational insane things is not unknown
... Insert example here ...
WTF was the logic there?

I would not say everyone in the Iranian regime is incapable of rational thought.
But certainly there are people in the Iranian regime that are not completely rational.

Also given the bizarre structure of the regime it is possible one part of the regime has no understanding of what another part is doing.

You can change the example and replace the word Iranian with the word American and it will remain just as valid. You want to portray this as a dispute between the United States of Sensible and the Islamic Revolutionary Republic of Mental, but it isn't that simple.

I never said it was simple black v white but your false equivalence is still false.
The structure of the Iranian regime completely different than the government of the US.

[Caracasus]

Whataboutism is the correct response to your point. I'm not claiming that Iran is a paragon of political stability, but your point was

You can change the example and replace the word Iranian with the word American and it will remain just as valid. You want to portray this as a dispute between the United States of Sensible and the Islamic Revolutionary Republic of Mental, but it isn't that simple.

I never said it was simple black v white but your false equivalence is still false.
The structure of the Iranian regime completely different than the government of the US.

Eh, the structure of both regimes aside, the American regime was pretty quick to double down on shooting down an Iranian passenger jet with damn near 300 casualties and claim it'd never apologise for what it had done.

So both regimes have some similarities, including a rather disturbing lack of interest in preventing civilian casualties and committing some pretty horrific crimes provided the regime in question feels it would further its interests to do so.

[Uan aa Boa]

I never said it was simple black v white but your false equivalence is still false.
The structure of the Iranian regime completely different than the government of the US.

Of course they have a completely different structure - the US has this tangled mass of district courts and supreme courts, filibustering and super-majorities, Senate approval committees, government shutdowns and who knows what else. "Bizarre structure" doesn't begin to do it justice.

What you seem to be arguing is that because the Iranians are bizarre enough there doesn't have to be a rational explanation as to why they would do this, which is important because it makes them much easier to blame based on "well who else would it be?" But that only works if the Iranians are uniquely unpredictable, which I don't think is the case.

[Novus America]

I never said it was simple black v white but your false equivalence is still false.
The structure of the Iranian regime completely different than the government of the US.

Eh, the structure of both regimes aside, the American regime was pretty quick to double down on shooting down an Iranian passenger jet with damn near 300 casualties and claim it'd never apologise for what it had done.

So both regimes have some similarities, including a rather disturbing lack of interest in preventing civilian casualties and committing some pretty horrific crimes provided the regime in question feels it would further its interests to do so.

The US refused to officially apologize for it. But never denied it.
And acknowledged it was a failure and a mistake.
So again false equivalency is false.

[Novus America]

I never said it was simple black v white but your false equivalence is still false.
The structure of the Iranian regime completely different than the government of the US.

Of course they have a completely different structure - the US has this tangled mass of district courts and supreme courts, filibustering and super-majorities, Senate approval committees, government shutdowns and who knows what else. "Bizarre structure" doesn't begin to do it justice.

What you seem to be arguing is that because the Iranians are bizarre enough there doesn't have to be a rational explanation as to why they would do this, which is important because it makes them much easier to blame based on "well who else would it be?" But that only works if the Iranians are uniquely unpredictable, which I don't think is the case.

Explain the predictable rationality for this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMIA_bombing

Uniquely irrational and unpredictable? No. More so than most? Yes.

[Caracasus]

Of course they have a completely different structure - the US has this tangled mass of district courts and supreme courts, filibustering and super-majorities, Senate approval committees, government shutdowns and who knows what else. "Bizarre structure" doesn't begin to do it justice.

What you seem to be arguing is that because the Iranians are bizarre enough there doesn't have to be a rational explanation as to why they would do this, which is important because it makes them much easier to blame based on "well who else would it be?" But that only works if the Iranians are uniquely unpredictable, which I don't think is the case.

Explain the predictable rationality for this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMIA_bombing

Uniquely irrational and unpredictable? No. More so than most? Yes.

Bombings eh? Cool. Explain this one conducted on US soil by US police.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing

[Gormwood]

But the US government said it was Iran and the US Government would never lie to justify starting a war.

If not Iran who attached the ships?

Saudi Arabia, the U.S, Israel. 3 major suspects who would love Iran getting invaded.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

In what way is it different?

First off the US Navy was not involved this time, secondly this was not even against US shipping. Another thing, at the time of Tonkin incident we where aiding the South Vietnamese, last time I checked we have not been sending troops into Iran to assist a militant factions

There’s no need to be pedantic over using “Gulf of Tonkin” to refer to an incident that could potentially used as a justification to go to war with another country. It’s similar to using “gate” as a suffix for a scandal, the Watergate Hotel and Nixon don’t need to have been involved to use it.

[Novus America]

Explain the predictable rationality for this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMIA_bombing

Uniquely irrational and unpredictable? No. More so than most? Yes.

Bombings eh? Cool. Explain this one conducted on US soil by US police.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing

Use of a breaching charge in operation against a fortified structure being used to fire weapons and blowing up a Jewish Community Center just to kill Jews are very different.

I can explain the rationale for use of a breaching charge in a police raid.
Sure it was still a mistake in retrospect but it was not just bombing for the LOLs.

More whataboutism and false equivalency.

Stop the whatatboutism crap and answer the question!

Explain the rationale behind blowing up a Jewish Community Center in Argentina of all place!

[Novus America]

If not Iran who attached the ships?

Saudi Arabia, the U.S, Israel. 3 major suspects who would love Iran getting invaded.

No way the US did. We suck at that type of thing. We would get caught.

The other two cannot be ruled out, but we know Iran has done this exact same shit before.

[Caracasus]

Bombings eh? Cool. Explain this one conducted on US soil by US police.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing

Use of a breaching charge in operation against a fortified structure being used to fire weapons and blowing up a Jewish Community Center just to kill Jews are very different.

More whataboutism and false equivalency.

Fucking hell mate, defending the MOVE bombings is something else.

I mean if you think that's justified action then I am not really inclined to think you're the best judge of rational or irrational acts.

[North German Realm]

Use of a breaching charge in operation against a fortified structure being used to fire weapons and blowing up a Jewish Community Center just to kill Jews are very different.

More whataboutism and false equivalency.

Fucking hell mate, defending the MOVE bombings is something else.

I mean if you think that's justified action then I am not really inclined to think you're the best judge of rational or irrational acts.

He's not defending it though, he's saying bombing MOVE is not really similar to the AMA bombings..

[Caracasus]

Fucking hell mate, defending the MOVE bombings is something else.

I mean if you think that's justified action then I am not really inclined to think you're the best judge of rational or irrational acts.

He's not defending it though, he's saying bombing MOVE is not really similar to the AMA bombings..

The argument was over justifiable, rational actions compared to unjustifiable irrational ones.

The inferred meaning here being that the MOVE bombings were justified and rational actions.

[Novus America]

Use of a breaching charge in operation against a fortified structure being used to fire weapons and blowing up a Jewish Community Center just to kill Jews are very different.

More whataboutism and false equivalency.

Fucking hell mate, defending the MOVE bombings is something else.

I mean if you think that's justified action then I am not really inclined to think you're the best judge of rational or irrational acts.

Pointing out it is completely different and false equivalence is not necessarily defending it.
You can point to a rationale behind something without agreeing with it.
There was a rationale behind the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor too. I am not defending it.
But I understand why they did it, even though they were obviously wrong.

Yes the MOVE bombing was definitely excessive use of force.
Sure it was still a mistake in retrospect but it was not just bombing for the LOLs.

More whataboutism and false equivalency.

Stop the whatatboutism crap and answer the question!

Explain the rationale behind blowing up a Jewish Community Center in Argentina of all place!

[Nihon koku]

Of course they have a completely different structure - the US has this tangled mass of district courts and supreme courts, filibustering and super-majorities, Senate approval committees, government shutdowns and who knows what else. "Bizarre structure" doesn't begin to do it justice.

What you seem to be arguing is that because the Iranians are bizarre enough there doesn't have to be a rational explanation as to why they would do this, which is important because it makes them much easier to blame based on "well who else would it be?" But that only works if the Iranians are uniquely unpredictable, which I don't think is the case.

Explain the predictable rationality for this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMIA_bombing

Uniquely irrational and unpredictable? No. More so than most? Yes.

Hard to explain it when the it was never proven the Iranians did it. You're asking for speculation at that point.

[Caracasus]

Explain the predictable rationality for this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMIA_bombing

Uniquely irrational and unpredictable? No. More so than most? Yes.

Hard to explain it when the it was never proven the Iranians did it. You're asking for speculation at that point.

Wheras the MOVE bombings were definately the actions of the police dept.

[Novus America]

He's not defending it though, he's saying bombing MOVE is not really similar to the AMA bombings..

The argument was over justifiable, rational actions compared to unjustifiable irrational ones.

The inferred meaning here being that the MOVE bombings were justified and rational actions.

It is not black and white. Something can be more justifiable and rationale without being fully rationale and justifiable. Also rationale and justifiable different. Something can be one or not the other.

But comparing excessive use of police force to killing Jews in a country you have no real conflict in it just for the Hell if it, is still absurd.

[Novus America]

Explain the predictable rationality for this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMIA_bombing

Uniquely irrational and unpredictable? No. More so than most? Yes.

Hard to explain it when the it was never proven the Iranians did it. You're asking for speculation at that point.

Hezbollah openly admitted to doing it.
And there is vast evidence of Iranian involvement.

[Salandriagado]

A video of what?

An Iranian attack boat removing unexploded mines off of one of the tankers.

Well, yes, they removed the mines. Of course they removed the fucking mines. They're literally required to do so by international treaties.

[Nihon koku]

Hard to explain it when the it was never proven the Iranians did it. You're asking for speculation at that point.

Hezbollah openly admitted to doing it.
And there is vast evidence of Iranian involvement.

So Hezbollah, and not Iran. Just "evidence" and not proof.

Can you cite a proven example to debate rationale behind? Works better than speculation.

[Salandriagado]

So what in the video definitively proves that Iran planted the bombs?

Who are the other suspects?

Saudi Arabia (given that they were planted in a Saudi port), the US, Israel (probably working in conjunction with the US). Any other random terrorist group, but not one of the competent ones, because these mines were very clearly placed in such a way as to not significantly damage the ships.