Iran vs the US Thread

[Aclion]

Not gonna lie a I am very suprised with Trump. I also want to know what the original target was. Anything short of Operation Praying Mantis 2 would be disapointing.

I don't think there ever was one.

[Nea Byzantia]

Removing Saddam Hussein from Iraq changed the entire balance in the middle east to the Shia's favor.

Bush kept just the military pressure onto everything before it blew up under Obama.

Well definitely, but really the problem goes back to the first Bush. We did not expect the Cold War to end, had no plan, and bought into Francis Fukuyama’s End of History lunacy.

But yes, the reason we played the Iran-Iraq War we did was to keep either side from getting to much power. It was dirty, ugly business. But it was necessary.

We did much better with that stuff than the blind Post Cold War idealism unfortunately.

Why was it necessary?

[Novus America]

It might be. From Bush I onwards it has been downhill TBH.

Because America began to rest on its laurels, and began to eat itself, as all Empires do when they eliminate all their rivals; and then new rivals sprout up out of nowhere, like mushrooms after a good rain. But by then, its too late.

Pretty much. But the new rival was already there. Our failure was not immediately starting a new Cold War with the PRC in 1989.
But yes, it happens to many a great power.
You need a rival. Without one you become complacent and your people turn on each other without an external threat to unite them.

[Novus America]

Well definitely, but really the problem goes back to the first Bush. We did not expect the Cold War to end, had no plan, and bought into Francis Fukuyama’s End of History lunacy.

But yes, the reason we played the Iran-Iraq War we did was to keep either side from getting to much power. It was dirty, ugly business. But it was necessary.

We did much better with that stuff than the blind Post Cold War idealism unfortunately.

Why was it necessary?

The Iran Iraq war was not necessary. But we did not start the war.
What was necessary is ensuring neither side scored a decisive victory.

[Novus America]

But one has to offer an alternative. And the US getting weaker and our enemies stronger has been going on decades.

Trump has done some good, and some bad things. He is a very mixed bag, but I take him over Obama’s weakness. At least he is doing a little to stand up to the PRC and Iran.

The alternative was a multinational agreement that constrained Iran's nuclear development and offered a route to engage with Teheran on other areas of concern. Trump walked away from that and we are in the situation we find today. Now the alternative is an agreement that is not going to be more hard on Iran than the one we had.

But anyone who thinks another ground war in the Middle East, one fought without any allies and against the opposition of every other country in the world, would be superior to that is either delusional or actively working to undermine the power and influence of the US.

Clearly Trump does not think a ground war with Iran is better!

And the agreement only made Iran stronger, richer, more aggressive and more dangerous.

Though I disagree with Trump on specifics, maximum economic pressures on Iran without war is the way to go.
Iran is trying this stuff because they realize they are in a bad situation.

When it is clear this stuff will not work, hopefully they will be willing to make real concessions.
But even if not, they will be too economically weak to pose a huge threat.

[Nea Byzantia]

Because America began to rest on its laurels, and began to eat itself, as all Empires do when they eliminate all their rivals; and then new rivals sprout up out of nowhere, like mushrooms after a good rain. But by then, its too late.

Pretty much. But the new rival was already there. Our failure was not immediately starting a new Cold War with the PRC in 1989.

Deng Xiaoping played it pretty smart. His policy was to "hide China's strength until the time was right". That decision has proven very wise. China was not ready in the 80s and 90s to confront the United States, but now it almost is; which is why we see current events unfolding the way they are.

[Christian Confederasion Military]

Of course. Anything Trump does is automatically bad. Just because.

If Trump cured cancer, people would be saying he’s being mean to the cancer cells

I could see CNN running that story.

But yeah we just need to have vets on the tankers armed with 50 Cals and grande launchers.
Only a Maniac would attack then, plus we would have the body to prove who did it. Of they have Iranian dog tags we invade Iran.
Or we Invade since Iran is dangerous and a world menece.

[Novus America]

Pretty much. But the new rival was already there. Our failure was not immediately starting a new Cold War with the PRC in 1989.

Deng Xiaoping played it pretty smart. His policy was to "hide China's strength until the time was right". That decision has proven very wise. China was not ready in the 80s and 90s to confront the United States, but now it almost is; which is why we see current events unfolding the way they are.

Indeed he was. Too bad we were too stupid. We should have seen right through his game.
I did. I was saying this back in 2000.
How can I, as stupid as I might be be smarter than 4 presidents? That is just fucking sad.

At least Xi has been stupid enough to show his hand before the PRC is fully ready, but it still might be too late.

[The Alma Mater]

Of course. Anything Trump does is automatically bad. Just because.

If Trump cured cancer, people would be saying he’s being mean to the cancer cells

It is always nice to see the right comparing muslims and refugees to cancer.

[Christian Confederation]

If Trump cured cancer, people would be saying he’s being mean to the cancer cells

I could see CNN running that story.

But yeah we just need to have vets on the tankers armed with 50 Cals and grande launchers.
Only a Maniac would attack then, plus we would have the body to prove who did it. Of they have Iranian dog tags we invade Iran.
Or we Invade since Iran is dangerous and a world menece.

As John bolten would say. "Let's just bomb Iran!"

[Novus America]

If Trump cured cancer, people would be saying he’s being mean to the cancer cells

It is always nice to see the right comparing muslims and refugees to cancer.

Nobody said that here though.

[Christian Confederation]

If Trump cured cancer, people would be saying he’s being mean to the cancer cells

It is always nice to see the right comparing muslims and refugees to cancer.

No he means if trump cured cancer people would side with cancer because
"Everything trump does is evil!"

[Novus America]

I could see CNN running that story.

But yeah we just need to have vets on the tankers armed with 50 Cals and grande launchers.
Only a Maniac would attack then, plus we would have the body to prove who did it. Of they have Iranian dog tags we invade Iran.
Or we Invade since Iran is dangerous and a world menece.

As John bolten would say. "Let's just bomb Iran!"

Except not. We do not want a full blown war, but we do not want to given in either.
Honestly staying the course is actually the best option here.

[Nea Byzantia]

Deng Xiaoping played it pretty smart. His policy was to "hide China's strength until the time was right". That decision has proven very wise. China was not ready in the 80s and 90s to confront the United States, but now it almost is; which is why we see current events unfolding the way they are.

Indeed he was. Too bad we were too stupid. We should have seen right through his game.
I did. I was saying this back in 2000.
How can I, as stupid as I might be be smarter than 3 presidents?

Because maybe those Presidents didn't actually give a damn about America, but rather only about their own power and wealth. Because maybe those Presidents couldn't care less if China eclipses the United States, it would just be easier for them to kick the can down the road - which is the mentality of all declining, decadent Empires - that each individual is only looking out for their happiness and prosperity, and couldn't give a damn about the Nation, because as the Nation becomes an Empire it loses its sense of self, it becomes more broad and watered-down.

You're a Patriot, you still care - but the same cannot be said for most of America's Elites.

[Vassenor]

Where are you getting warhawkism from this? Saying that ordering, then calling off, a military operation is not going to help stability in the region seems kind of the antithesis of demanding war.

I bet that you would’ve been mad if he had gone through with it as well

I'm not following your logic here really.

[Vassenor]

It is always nice to see the right comparing muslims and refugees to cancer.

No he means if trump cured cancer people would side with cancer because
"Everything trump does is evil!"

You're getting straw on the carpet.

[Novus America]

Indeed he was. Too bad we were too stupid. We should have seen right through his game.
I did. I was saying this back in 2000.
How can I, as stupid as I might be be smarter than 3 presidents?

Because maybe those Presidents didn't actually give a damn about America, but rather only about their own power and wealth. Because maybe those Presidents couldn't care less if China eclipses the United States, it would just be easier for them to kick the can down the road - which is the mentality of all declining, decadent Empires - that each individual is only looking out for their happiness and prosperity, and couldn't give a damn about the Nation, because as the Nation becomes an Empire it loses its sense of self, it becomes more broad and watered-down.

You're a Patriot, you still care - but the same cannot be said for most of America's Elites.

I wish you were wrong, but unfortunately I do not believe you are wrong.

[Des-Bal]

I think there's a serious possibility that Trump viewed this as a way to put the threat of open war on the table with more than words but also without committing to anything. In any case, it just makes it look like he's either gutless or irrational.

[Nea Byzantia]

Because maybe those Presidents didn't actually give a damn about America, but rather only about their own power and wealth. Because maybe those Presidents couldn't care less if China eclipses the United States, it would just be easier for them to kick the can down the road - which is the mentality of all declining, decadent Empires - that each individual is only looking out for their happiness and prosperity, and couldn't give a damn about the Nation, because as the Nation becomes an Empire it loses its sense of self, it becomes more broad and watered-down.

You're a Patriot, you still care - but the same cannot be said for most of America's Elites.

I wish you were wrong, but unfortunately I do not believe you are wrong.

Its the Story of every declining Empire, sadly. Its like the eminent American Historian Will Durant said:

A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.

Let's just hope the American Nation will survive the Fall of its Empire. If there's any sort of a positive to this, its that that last part is up to people like you and me. Its up to each of us, with our own families, to keep the Nation alive. Speaking as a Greek for example, our precious Eastern Roman Empire has been no more for almost 600 years; but Byzantium still lives on in our hearts, and we bring it with us wherever we go. Hopefully, it will be the same with America, and Americans.

[Galloism]

No he means if trump cured cancer people would side with cancer because
"Everything trump does is evil!"

You're getting straw on the carpet.

What good thing has Trump done so far?

[Novus America]

You're getting straw on the carpet.

What good thing has Trump done so far?

Completely changed the course on the PRC. Which is the most important thing.
Reversed Obama’s military cuts. Those at least were good.
Again a mixed bag, not the best, not the worst. But better than the last 4 (a damn low bar TBH)

[Nea Byzantia]

What good thing has Trump done so far?

Completely changed the course on the PRC. Which is the most important thing.
Reversed Obama’s military cuts. Those at least were good.
Again a mixed bag, not the best, not the worst. But better than the last 4 (a damn low bar TBH)

Do you think the Country would be any less divided if Trump had lost, or hadn't run at all, in 2016?

[Novus America]

I wish you were wrong, but unfortunately I do not believe you are wrong.

Its the Story of every declining Empire, sadly. Its like the eminent American Historian Will Durant said:

A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.

Let's just hope the American Nation will survive the Fall of its Empire. If there's any sort of a positive to this, its that that last part is up to people like you and me. Its up to each of us, with our own families, to keep the Nation alive. Speaking as a Greek for example, our precious Eastern Roman Empire has been no more for almost 600 years; but Byzantium still lives on in our hearts, and we bring it with us wherever we go. Hopefully, it will be the same with America, and Americans.

Well the ERE seemed doomed many times but made several spectacular comebacks.
Unlike the ERE under the Angelos I am not willing to go down without a fight.

[Nea Byzantia]

Its the Story of every declining Empire, sadly. Its like the eminent American Historian Will Durant said:



Let's just hope the American Nation will survive the Fall of its Empire. If there's any sort of a positive to this, its that that last part is up to people like you and me. Its up to each of us, with our own families, to keep the Nation alive. Speaking as a Greek for example, our precious Eastern Roman Empire has been no more for almost 600 years; but Byzantium still lives on in our hearts, and we bring it with us wherever we go. Hopefully, it will be the same with America, and Americans.

Well the ERE seemed doomed many times but made several spectacular comebacks.
Unlike the ERE under the Angelos I am not willing to go down without a fight.

Maybe you'll be Stilicho, or Michael VIII Palaiologos. I wish you the best of luck with that. As hard as you try, you can't turn back the tide of history, but that doesn't mean you can't make a valiant effort, and be remembered for it. You can certainly soften the blow.

[Novus America]

Completely changed the course on the PRC. Which is the most important thing.
Reversed Obama’s military cuts. Those at least were good.
Again a mixed bag, not the best, not the worst. But better than the last 4 (a damn low bar TBH)

Do you think the Country would be any less divided if Trump had lost, or hadn't run at all, in 2016?

No. Trump was merely the symptom, not the disease.
Trump did not create the conditions that got him elected, merely used them.