NATION

PASSWORD

Hong Kong

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

In retrospect..

The UK was right to handover HK to China
173
15%
The UK should have kept HK
251
21%
The UK should have set up HK as an independent, democratic state
712
60%
Other
45
4%
 
Total votes : 1181

User avatar
Bear Stearns
Senator
 
Posts: 4947
Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Bear Stearns » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:17 pm

Duhon wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:Has anyone noticed that there is a strong nationalist undercurrent to the Hong Kong protests? The Hongkongese (sp.?) genuinely do not consider themselves to be Chinese (they don't even speak the same language).


the majority of hk denizens speak cantonese, as do most people living near them
it's not so much a nationalist current as it is democratic
they'd be perfectly happy with chinese rule if that rule weren't so repressive and beguiling


Increasingly, the protests are looking a lot more anti-China rather than anti-PRC. They do not want to be part of a Chinese state, period.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
New York, NY 10017
Vince Vaughn

User avatar
Gormwood
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6278
Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gormwood » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:20 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Duhon wrote:
the majority of hk denizens speak cantonese, as do most people living near them
it's not so much a nationalist current as it is democratic
they'd be perfectly happy with chinese rule if that rule weren't so repressive and beguiling


Increasingly, the protests are looking a lot more anti-China rather than anti-PRC. They do not want to be part of a Chinese state, period.

There hasn't been a Chinese state besides the PRC since the Dynasty Warriors days.
Bloodthirsty savages who call for violence against the Right while simultaneously being unarmed defenseless sissies who will get slaughtered by the gun-toting Right in a civil war.
Breath So Bad, It Actually Drives People Mad

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 98227
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:20 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:Has anyone noticed that there is a strong nationalist undercurrent to the Hong Kong protests? The Hongkongese (sp.?) genuinely do not consider themselves to be Chinese (they don't even speak the same language).

The PRC prefers mandarin
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

User avatar
Rojava Free State
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5925
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:40 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Duhon wrote:
the majority of hk denizens speak cantonese, as do most people living near them
it's not so much a nationalist current as it is democratic
they'd be perfectly happy with chinese rule if that rule weren't so repressive and beguiling


Increasingly, the protests are looking a lot more anti-China rather than anti-PRC. They do not want to be part of a Chinese state, period.


don't see why they gotta be.
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property, and sexy brown women

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
Half Lebanese, Half Puerto Rican. All american. Not Kurdish at all.

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lilahdog567/

User avatar
Tuthina
Senator
 
Posts: 4579
Founded: Jun 14, 2011
Libertarian Police State

Postby Tuthina » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:57 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Duhon wrote:
the majority of hk denizens speak cantonese, as do most people living near them
it's not so much a nationalist current as it is democratic
they'd be perfectly happy with chinese rule if that rule weren't so repressive and beguiling


Increasingly, the protests are looking a lot more anti-China rather than anti-PRC. They do not want to be part of a Chinese state, period.

Because the idea that Hong Kong's handover back to China will be a trigger for China to become democratic has been bankrupt, something becoming more and more apparent since Xi became its leader. That, combined with poor international reception of (mainland) Chinese, and the continued propaganda of PRC equating itself with China and all its cultural baggage with the intention of painting all opposition to its rule "anti-Chinese separatism" has finally resulted in more and more people saying "alright, guess we might as well be anti-China then". Unfortunate, but understandable. That said, whether separatism (which is still a relative minority among the protesters) constitutes anti-China is debatable.
Call me Reno.
14:54:02 <Lykens> Explain your definition of Reno.

11:47 <Swilatia> Good god, copy+paste is no way to build a country!

03:08 <Democratic Koyro> NSG senate is a glaring example of why no one in NSG should ever have a position of authority
Rated as Class A: Environmental Utopia by Namor People's Rating Department
Rated as Human Rights Haven (7/10) by Namor People's Rating Department
Rated as Partially Free (4/10) by Namor People's Rating Department
Rated as Post-Industrial Nation (48 000 thousands of metric tons of carbon annually) by Syleruian Carbon Output Index
Rated as Category B by Edenist Travel Advisory Guide

User avatar
Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11162
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:04 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
Increasingly, the protests are looking a lot more anti-China rather than anti-PRC. They do not want to be part of a Chinese state, period.


don't see why they gotta be.


We don't want to be part of this Chinese state.

One aspect of how the CCP is essentially infiltrating HK is through language. Primary school students now learn Chinese in Mandarin not Cantonese. Walk the streets of any city in China and the predominant language is Mandarin, this is different to even just 10 years ago. TV channels now all broadcast in Mandarin.

Take away any individual sense of identity and it's easier to dominate society.

Yet mainly we would prefer to maintain our freedoms, of speech, of media and our rights. Why should we have to essentially regress from enjoying such freedoms to having them taken away from us.

Greater pressure needs to be brought on China to change, and that will take the combined effort of governments, institutions, companies and, most importantly, individuals to maintain pressure on those, to ask the question of whether it's right to turn a blind eye to repression, social control, a lack of rule of law and zero right to challenge authority all in the name of making a quick buck.

I think it's time everyone started to ask this question, of themselves and of those who profess in constitutions, mission statements and supposed values to stand for liberty, equality and mutual respect.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 98227
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:28 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
don't see why they gotta be.


We don't want to be part of this Chinese state.

One aspect of how the CCP is essentially infiltrating HK is through language. Primary school students now learn Chinese in Mandarin not Cantonese. Walk the streets of any city in China and the predominant language is Mandarin, this is different to even just 10 years ago. TV channels now all broadcast in Mandarin.

Take away any individual sense of identity and it's easier to dominate society.

Yet mainly we would prefer to maintain our freedoms, of speech, of media and our rights. Why should we have to essentially regress from enjoying such freedoms to having them taken away from us.

Greater pressure needs to be brought on China to change, and that will take the combined effort of governments, institutions, companies and, most importantly, individuals to maintain pressure on those, to ask the question of whether it's right to turn a blind eye to repression, social control, a lack of rule of law and zero right to challenge authority all in the name of making a quick buck.

I think it's time everyone started to ask this question, of themselves and of those who profess in constitutions, mission statements and supposed values to stand for liberty, equality and mutual respect.


It is very hard to tell from over here because of the multiple layers of filtering, , but it doesnt appear the rest of china is on your side.

And as an American, what can I do for you? There is going to be a rally in support of HK in the city, I could attend that.

I have had chijese products removed from contracts because they violate "buy American", tbh, I did that before this HK issue, and just have continued to do so.

But what could I, as an outsider, do for HK?
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

User avatar
Plzen
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7497
Founded: Mar 19, 2014
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Plzen » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:31 pm

To be honest, the best thing someone far abroad can do for the protesters might just be to attend those rallies and demonstrations, and be prepared to do that for the long term.

Demonstrate that the world is watching, and will keep doing so well after this news cycle is over.
Forward, my comrades, march to your stations,
Righteous and proud! Win, we most surely can.
This is a triumph of peace and of nations,
A dawn of friendship for all people of man!

User avatar
Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11162
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:46 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
We don't want to be part of this Chinese state.

One aspect of how the CCP is essentially infiltrating HK is through language. Primary school students now learn Chinese in Mandarin not Cantonese. Walk the streets of any city in China and the predominant language is Mandarin, this is different to even just 10 years ago. TV channels now all broadcast in Mandarin.

Take away any individual sense of identity and it's easier to dominate society.

Yet mainly we would prefer to maintain our freedoms, of speech, of media and our rights. Why should we have to essentially regress from enjoying such freedoms to having them taken away from us.

Greater pressure needs to be brought on China to change, and that will take the combined effort of governments, institutions, companies and, most importantly, individuals to maintain pressure on those, to ask the question of whether it's right to turn a blind eye to repression, social control, a lack of rule of law and zero right to challenge authority all in the name of making a quick buck.

I think it's time everyone started to ask this question, of themselves and of those who profess in constitutions, mission statements and supposed values to stand for liberty, equality and mutual respect.


It is very hard to tell from over here because of the multiple layers of filtering, , but it doesnt appear the rest of china is on your side.

And as an American, what can I do for you? There is going to be a rally in support of HK in the city, I could attend that.

I have had chijese products removed from contracts because they violate "buy American", tbh, I did that before this HK issue, and just have continued to do so.

But what could I, as an outsider, do for HK?


Don't worry, there's a global campaign being set up that will outline exactly what can be done - so far the nature of the protests have led to a somewhat fragmented, if not successful, approach but at least in HK people are thinking 'what are my skills and how can I apply them to help'.

HK will deal with HK (or China will), but it might take a global effort to pressure China to move in a better direction in regards to freedoms and rights, which technically it's bound to do. That will take a clear and undeniable yet focused approach to the basic principles at stake here.

Ultimately, the fundamental question of whether individuals should retain the freedom to express their views and free access to information is compelling if framed correctly.

It's not just up to individuals, as I noted earlier.. why isn't there more call in the UN, given it's charter, to recognise Taiwan as a simple example. Yet this does take, to some degree, wider pressure from everyone to ask these questions about the difference between what's stated as important yet the actions that undermine this.

If nothing else, as individuals, we can make a choice about what we accept and the actions we take to support that. If your own contributions listed above were undertaken by more governments, institutions, companies and individuals then there'd already be a strong message going out.

It may be a large number of people in China don't see it framed this way, but certainly a large number get pissed off when links are removed, people are blocked, images suppressed.

And it's not just against China, it expands into a wide array of things where activism is already taking place, the hypocrisy of pretending to be concerned about climate change and yet barely a mention in Democrat primary debates. It's time people were held to account.

Technology causes its problems but also represents the ability to create a mass outcry for better representation.

Beyond all that I think, right now, what HK needs is a little hope.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

User avatar
Relikai
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9522
Founded: Feb 11, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Relikai » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:52 pm

Don't expect much from the UN. With China itself being a member, and most of the members content with the status quo of Taiwan being under China, there's no way international bodies like the US or Russia would risk a Chinese takeover of the island by recognizing Taiwan's own sovereignty.

Geopolitics is hard. Not for the naive.
NationStates reveals to all the delusional fantasies of a certain people, and the proud ignorance of the circlejerking community.
Deliberate target of sinophobia on and off NS, victim of the Western media-influenced, proud victim of pro-West rhetoric. Staunch opposition of anarchy, of hypocrites shown by the myopic western-influenced crowd when it comes to hard evidence.
Due to trolling and cyberbullying, I shall therefore dedicate myself to walking the Party Line of this community, and adopt the stance which so many demand instead of possessing a free mind. The Party Line of being a western shill shall be followed in all discussions to further the racist Anti-PRC agenda by the community.

User avatar
Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11162
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:00 pm

Relikai wrote:Don't expect much from the UN. With China itself being a member, and most of the members content with the status quo of Taiwan being under China, there's no way international bodies like the US or Russia would risk a Chinese takeover of the island by recognizing Taiwan's own sovereignty.

Geopolitics is hard. Not for the naive.


Last time a growing authoritarian power that was looking to wipe out an entire religious ethnicity was cause for a World War. We don't want or expect the same but we have the tools to create pressure that doesn't require a call to arms.

It's 2019, you'd have thought the world would have learned from 1945 the dangers of idling by while an authoritarian state demands expanded influence and power. Note that Xi Jinping believes everyone, anywhere of Chinese ethnicity is subservient to the CCP first above all else.

Down the line that places even Singapore in danger.

He contends that this “New Era” is based on the Party’s fourteen organizing principles, which must be upheld. The core principle is that “the CCP leads everything, everywhere” and thus needs to build “a shared destiny of mankind.” This shared destiny is to create a world modeled after China’s political system which, if realized. would condemn many states to oppressive rule.

Link

We cannot just sit back and say this is just inevitable.

Still, it is more dreadful to realize that within a far shorter period of time, China’s economic, military, and political power will present an existential challenge to the free world and western civilization. It is unclear whether the world is ready to meet that challenge.
Last edited by Bombadil on Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

User avatar
Relikai
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9522
Founded: Feb 11, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Relikai » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:45 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Relikai wrote:Don't expect much from the UN. With China itself being a member, and most of the members content with the status quo of Taiwan being under China, there's no way international bodies like the US or Russia would risk a Chinese takeover of the island by recognizing Taiwan's own sovereignty.

Geopolitics is hard. Not for the naive.


Last time a growing authoritarian power that was looking to wipe out an entire religious ethnicity was cause for a World War. We don't want or expect the same but we have the tools to create pressure that doesn't require a call to arms.

It's 2019, you'd have thought the world would have learned from 1945 the dangers of idling by while an authoritarian state demands expanded influence and power. Note that Xi Jinping believes everyone, anywhere of Chinese ethnicity is subservient to the CCP first above all else.

Down the line that places even Singapore in danger.

He contends that this “New Era” is based on the Party’s fourteen organizing principles, which must be upheld. The core principle is that “the CCP leads everything, everywhere” and thus needs to build “a shared destiny of mankind.” This shared destiny is to create a world modeled after China’s political system which, if realized. would condemn many states to oppressive rule.

Link

We cannot just sit back and say this is just inevitable.

Still, it is more dreadful to realize that within a far shorter period of time, China’s economic, military, and political power will present an existential challenge to the free world and western civilization. It is unclear whether the world is ready to meet that challenge.


Last time a growing authoritarian power that was looking to wipe out an entire religious ethnicity was cause for a World War. We don't want or expect the same but we have the tools to create pressure that doesn't require a call to arms.


It's a 'World War' only because the World was controlled by a limited number of colonial powers when in fact Germany's influence affected only France, Central Europe and Russia. It's 2019, and Eurocentrism =/= World.

Unfortunately that link is not a reliable source, given how much speculation and assumption it uses in its formation. There are come accurate interpretations, but I see enough vague claims intended to mislead readers.

It's 2019, you'd have thought the world would have learned from 1945 the dangers of idling by while an authoritarian state demands expanded influence and power. Note that Xi Jinping believes everyone, anywhere of Chinese ethnicity is subservient to the CCP first above all else.


Inaccurate. Instead of being subservient to the CCP, Xi believes that every Chinese person who has their heritage in China would be affected by events happening in China. Further interpretation states that there is the belief that each Chinese person could be affected by issues in China via cultural ties with their ancestral home.

That he believes that all should be subservient, this is the only place among dozens which I've read, and the first and only claim I encountered.

In Singapore, we have no fear nor the insecurity that people with agendas showcase on a frequent basis. We have a strong leadership and sovereign identity among not just people of the Chinese race, but among the community of races upon which the country was built. While it is important to know what happens in a growing economy near one's backyard, over 40 years of independent rule as a sovereign nation has shaped us against any Chinese influence.

Again, we do not share the paranoia of the West that we would soon be engulfed in a new wave of Chinese influence, nor lack the backbone to oppose and say a hard 'no' to or stand up for ourselves. When our armoured vehicles were detained by Hong Kong, and Singapore stood with the UN ruling about the South China Sea, diplomats faced China head-on with a clear line drawn about where we stand.

We don't want or expect the same but we have the tools to create pressure that doesn't require a call to arms.


This makes the most sense. If one is concerned about what should one do about China's rise, look to the complacent powers of the US and Europe. While they continue to intervene and project power via military means, civilian consumers are being influenced by what fits their wallets best.
NationStates reveals to all the delusional fantasies of a certain people, and the proud ignorance of the circlejerking community.
Deliberate target of sinophobia on and off NS, victim of the Western media-influenced, proud victim of pro-West rhetoric. Staunch opposition of anarchy, of hypocrites shown by the myopic western-influenced crowd when it comes to hard evidence.
Due to trolling and cyberbullying, I shall therefore dedicate myself to walking the Party Line of this community, and adopt the stance which so many demand instead of possessing a free mind. The Party Line of being a western shill shall be followed in all discussions to further the racist Anti-PRC agenda by the community.

User avatar
Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11162
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:20 pm

Relikai wrote:Again, we do not share the paranoia of the West that we would soon be engulfed in a new wave of Chinese influence, nor lack the backbone to oppose and say a hard 'no' to or stand up for ourselves. When our armoured vehicles were detained by Hong Kong, and Singapore stood with the UN ruling about the South China Sea, diplomats faced China head-on with a clear line drawn about where we stand.


It's certainly being discussed..

Chinese President Xi Jinping's policies of blurring the line between "Chinese people" and "overseas Chinese", intensified propaganda, and new laws related to overseas Chinese have all caused heightened concern in Singapore, he said.

"Singapore's Government views identity as an existential issue and is likely to resist CCP efforts to make inroads in this area," he added.


Link

Don't underestimate the persistence of the CCP to continue to drive influence through business and soft and hard power to bring SG into line with Xi's stated goal of united Chinese under the command of the CCP.

You're just not the key priority on the radar yet. Allow HK and Taiwan to fall and you will be.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

User avatar
Relikai
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9522
Founded: Feb 11, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Relikai » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:55 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Relikai wrote:Again, we do not share the paranoia of the West that we would soon be engulfed in a new wave of Chinese influence, nor lack the backbone to oppose and say a hard 'no' to or stand up for ourselves. When our armoured vehicles were detained by Hong Kong, and Singapore stood with the UN ruling about the South China Sea, diplomats faced China head-on with a clear line drawn about where we stand.


It's certainly being discussed..

Chinese President Xi Jinping's policies of blurring the line between "Chinese people" and "overseas Chinese", intensified propaganda, and new laws related to overseas Chinese have all caused heightened concern in Singapore, he said.

"Singapore's Government views identity as an existential issue and is likely to resist CCP efforts to make inroads in this area," he added.


Link

Don't underestimate the persistence of the CCP to continue to drive influence through business and soft and hard power to bring SG into line with Xi's stated goal of united Chinese under the command of the CCP.

You're just not the key priority on the radar yet. Allow HK and Taiwan to fall and you will be.


Clarification - Cited Source is a Pro-Taiwan, US-based report, with no grounds on local studies therefore is not a direct measure of local/ground sentiment. Therefore natural anti-China bias is to be expected. Instead the more one reads it, the more inaccuracies and assumptions can be uncovered.

Therefore it is not a reliable source.


No one said that it's not being discussed. It is because it is being discussed that we are wary of both Chinese and US attempts at influencing our culture and diplomatic stance which, should one side succeed, be a sad day for our sovereignty.

In our state of neutrality, Chinese institutions are as welcome as institutes from the US, UK and Australia among others. On the contrary to some reports, the majority here do the opposite of what the report claims.

Putting inaccurate claims aside, the old roots and links between China and Singapore lies way before Communism existed. What was stated is nothing new, and if visiting ancestral homes is considered being influenced by foreign powers, then it is a sad day for critical thinking and logic as a whole.

Don't underestimate the persistence of the CCP to continue to drive influence through business and soft and hard power to bring SG into line with Xi's stated goal of united Chinese under the command of the CCP.


Putting false claims aside, if you lived here you'd understand why some claim us to be a 'police state', given how much enforcement and counter-espionage is involved to defend ourselves against foreign influences from all spheres.

Oh, and the Government isn't alone in resisting foreign influences.
NationStates reveals to all the delusional fantasies of a certain people, and the proud ignorance of the circlejerking community.
Deliberate target of sinophobia on and off NS, victim of the Western media-influenced, proud victim of pro-West rhetoric. Staunch opposition of anarchy, of hypocrites shown by the myopic western-influenced crowd when it comes to hard evidence.
Due to trolling and cyberbullying, I shall therefore dedicate myself to walking the Party Line of this community, and adopt the stance which so many demand instead of possessing a free mind. The Party Line of being a western shill shall be followed in all discussions to further the racist Anti-PRC agenda by the community.

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28547
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:13 pm

I think Hong Kong/China has much to learn from Singapore in terms of protest management and law and order.

I think if this illegal protest had instead occurred in Singapore, it would never have gotten this far.

As such, maybe China/Hk should also adopt the Singaporean approach to justice and law and order.
THIS IS WHY I PLAY VLADIMIR

Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts
Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

User avatar
Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11162
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:18 pm

Relikai wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
It's certainly being discussed..

Chinese President Xi Jinping's policies of blurring the line between "Chinese people" and "overseas Chinese", intensified propaganda, and new laws related to overseas Chinese have all caused heightened concern in Singapore, he said.

"Singapore's Government views identity as an existential issue and is likely to resist CCP efforts to make inroads in this area," he added.


Link

Don't underestimate the persistence of the CCP to continue to drive influence through business and soft and hard power to bring SG into line with Xi's stated goal of united Chinese under the command of the CCP.

You're just not the key priority on the radar yet. Allow HK and Taiwan to fall and you will be.


Clarification - Cited Source is a Pro-Taiwan, US-based report, with no grounds on local studies therefore is not a direct measure of local/ground sentiment. Therefore natural anti-China bias is to be expected. Instead the more one reads it, the more inaccuracies and assumptions can be uncovered.

Therefore it is not a reliable source.


No one said that it's not being discussed. It is because it is being discussed that we are wary of both Chinese and US attempts at influencing our culture and diplomatic stance which, should one side succeed, be a sad day for our sovereignty.

In our state of neutrality, Chinese institutions are as welcome as institutes from the US, UK and Australia among others. On the contrary to some reports, the majority here do the opposite of what the report claims.

Putting inaccurate claims aside, the old roots and links between China and Singapore lies way before Communism existed. What was stated is nothing new, and if visiting ancestral homes is considered being influenced by foreign powers, then it is a sad day for critical thinking and logic as a whole.

Don't underestimate the persistence of the CCP to continue to drive influence through business and soft and hard power to bring SG into line with Xi's stated goal of united Chinese under the command of the CCP.


Putting false claims aside, if you lived here you'd understand why some claim us to be a 'police state', given how much enforcement and counter-espionage is involved to defend ourselves against foreign influences from all spheres.

Oh, and the Government isn't alone in resisting foreign influences.


From a Singaporean source then..

And, there are some who may shy away from Singapore as a base, according to NUS’s Chong. “If your business happens to be in media, Singapore’s own increasing restrictions in these areas might discourage these businesses from coming to Singapore,” he says.

Meanwhile, Chong cautions that the influx of assets and businesses from Hong Kong could come with its own set of problems. Singapore could end up being caught in the middle if China requests for the extradition for individuals residing or transiting in Singapore, for instance. While there is no extradition treaty between Singapore and China, Singapore might have to start dealing with Chinese pressure and risk having extradition politicised.

“The question will be how Singapore faces such pressure. Because if it is unclear how these people violated any law and it seems like a politicised exercise, then Singapore has to deal with the risk of its own system being politicised by China’s policies,” says NUS’s Chong. “When we have more businesses relocating to Singapore, as the US-China tensions get worse, there will be an uncomfortable situation that Singapore has to ask itself: To what extent does it comply with demands from one side or the other? That sets up a potentially trickier situation for Singapore to navigate.”


Link

Don't think it isn't coming.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

User avatar
Relikai
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9522
Founded: Feb 11, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Relikai » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:26 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Relikai wrote:
Clarification - Cited Source is a Pro-Taiwan, US-based report, with no grounds on local studies therefore is not a direct measure of local/ground sentiment. Therefore natural anti-China bias is to be expected. Instead the more one reads it, the more inaccuracies and assumptions can be uncovered.

Therefore it is not a reliable source.


No one said that it's not being discussed. It is because it is being discussed that we are wary of both Chinese and US attempts at influencing our culture and diplomatic stance which, should one side succeed, be a sad day for our sovereignty.

In our state of neutrality, Chinese institutions are as welcome as institutes from the US, UK and Australia among others. On the contrary to some reports, the majority here do the opposite of what the report claims.

Putting inaccurate claims aside, the old roots and links between China and Singapore lies way before Communism existed. What was stated is nothing new, and if visiting ancestral homes is considered being influenced by foreign powers, then it is a sad day for critical thinking and logic as a whole.



Putting false claims aside, if you lived here you'd understand why some claim us to be a 'police state', given how much enforcement and counter-espionage is involved to defend ourselves against foreign influences from all spheres.

Oh, and the Government isn't alone in resisting foreign influences.


From a Singaporean source then..

And, there are some who may shy away from Singapore as a base, according to NUS’s Chong. “If your business happens to be in media, Singapore’s own increasing restrictions in these areas might discourage these businesses from coming to Singapore,” he says.

Meanwhile, Chong cautions that the influx of assets and businesses from Hong Kong could come with its own set of problems. Singapore could end up being caught in the middle if China requests for the extradition for individuals residing or transiting in Singapore, for instance. While there is no extradition treaty between Singapore and China, Singapore might have to start dealing with Chinese pressure and risk having extradition politicised.

“The question will be how Singapore faces such pressure. Because if it is unclear how these people violated any law and it seems like a politicised exercise, then Singapore has to deal with the risk of its own system being politicised by China’s policies,” says NUS’s Chong. “When we have more businesses relocating to Singapore, as the US-China tensions get worse, there will be an uncomfortable situation that Singapore has to ask itself: To what extent does it comply with demands from one side or the other? That sets up a potentially trickier situation for Singapore to navigate.”


Link

Don't think it isn't coming.


Oh I'm so shocked that I have no idea foreign influences are interested in us!

That's kinda old tbh, a repeat of what we've been observing and talking in social circles and political commentaries here on a quarterly basis at the very least.

We've been battling US influences for decades. If our guy can fuck the CIA, and cane the shit out of US ingrates another challenger would just be a challenge for us to face.
NationStates reveals to all the delusional fantasies of a certain people, and the proud ignorance of the circlejerking community.
Deliberate target of sinophobia on and off NS, victim of the Western media-influenced, proud victim of pro-West rhetoric. Staunch opposition of anarchy, of hypocrites shown by the myopic western-influenced crowd when it comes to hard evidence.
Due to trolling and cyberbullying, I shall therefore dedicate myself to walking the Party Line of this community, and adopt the stance which so many demand instead of possessing a free mind. The Party Line of being a western shill shall be followed in all discussions to further the racist Anti-PRC agenda by the community.

User avatar
Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11162
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:32 pm

Relikai wrote:Oh I'm so shocked that I have no idea foreign influences are interested in us!

That's kinda old tbh, a repeat of what we've been observing and talking in social circles and political commentaries here on a quarterly basis at the very least.

We've been battling US influences for decades. If our guy can fuck the CIA, and cane the shit out of US ingrates another challenger would just be a challenge for us to face.


Except SG isn't really as reliant on the US..

The top export destinations of Singapore are Hong Kong ($60.8B), China ($50.3B), Malaysia ($28.4B), Indonesia ($17.9B) and the United States ($16.6B).

Those HK exports are basically into China.. and China will be far more adamant in flexing its muscles.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

User avatar
Relikai
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9522
Founded: Feb 11, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Relikai » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:39 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Relikai wrote:Oh I'm so shocked that I have no idea foreign influences are interested in us!

That's kinda old tbh, a repeat of what we've been observing and talking in social circles and political commentaries here on a quarterly basis at the very least.

We've been battling US influences for decades. If our guy can fuck the CIA, and cane the shit out of US ingrates another challenger would just be a challenge for us to face.


Except SG isn't really as reliant on the US..

The top export destinations of Singapore are Hong Kong ($60.8B), China ($50.3B), Malaysia ($28.4B), Indonesia ($17.9B) and the United States ($16.6B).

Those HK exports are basically into China.. and China will be far more adamant in flexing its muscles.


Not sure if its paranoia or attempts to undermine our diplomatic resilience, but you can take assurance through the posts above.
NationStates reveals to all the delusional fantasies of a certain people, and the proud ignorance of the circlejerking community.
Deliberate target of sinophobia on and off NS, victim of the Western media-influenced, proud victim of pro-West rhetoric. Staunch opposition of anarchy, of hypocrites shown by the myopic western-influenced crowd when it comes to hard evidence.
Due to trolling and cyberbullying, I shall therefore dedicate myself to walking the Party Line of this community, and adopt the stance which so many demand instead of possessing a free mind. The Party Line of being a western shill shall be followed in all discussions to further the racist Anti-PRC agenda by the community.

User avatar
North German Realm
Minister
 
Posts: 2940
Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby North German Realm » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:48 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Duhon wrote:
the majority of hk denizens speak cantonese, as do most people living near them
it's not so much a nationalist current as it is democratic
they'd be perfectly happy with chinese rule if that rule weren't so repressive and beguiling


Increasingly, the protests are looking a lot more anti-China rather than anti-PRC. They do not want to be part of a Chinese state, period.

Well it makes sense. They've essentially lived separately from the Chinese (culture or state) for round 1.5 centuries. They have little modern connection with China or the Chinese outside of ancestry and geography.
------------------
------------------
------------------
North Germany
Norddeutschland

Witness the people's rage and notice the absolute media embargo where we the Iranians are concerned.
Homepage || Overview | Sovereign | Chancellor | Legislature || The World
25 May, 1914
Norddeutsche Morgenpost: Swedish assault into Zealand stopped by Danish blockade. Swedish coastal naval guns destroyed by Danish air raids. A Humiliating defeat for Sweden! || Irish Home Rule bill passed by British House of Commons. || British Parliament passes a universal ban on immigration from Asia. || House of Lords rejects a Women's Suffrage bill 104 to 60. || Centre-left "Radical Party" wins 35% of the votes in French elections.

User avatar
Duhon
Senator
 
Posts: 4238
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:52 pm

North German Realm wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
Increasingly, the protests are looking a lot more anti-China rather than anti-PRC. They do not want to be part of a Chinese state, period.

Well it makes sense. They've essentially lived separately from the Chinese (culture or state) for round 1.5 centuries. They have little modern connection with China or the Chinese outside of ancestry and geography.


this talk of chinese being fundamentally different from each other due to acculturating to differing political systems does not fit the facts or what at least dil has provided for that matter

User avatar
Relikai
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9522
Founded: Feb 11, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Relikai » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:55 pm

North German Realm wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
Increasingly, the protests are looking a lot more anti-China rather than anti-PRC. They do not want to be part of a Chinese state, period.

Well it makes sense. They've essentially lived separately from the Chinese (culture or state) for round 1.5 centuries. They have little modern connection with China or the Chinese outside of ancestry and geography.


Essentially false to make such claims, as the only disconnect with China was being part of the UK during that period, with the culture of the people of HK coming from Guangdong which is in China.

China is large enough to have different cultures, so using that won't stand for this part of the world.
NationStates reveals to all the delusional fantasies of a certain people, and the proud ignorance of the circlejerking community.
Deliberate target of sinophobia on and off NS, victim of the Western media-influenced, proud victim of pro-West rhetoric. Staunch opposition of anarchy, of hypocrites shown by the myopic western-influenced crowd when it comes to hard evidence.
Due to trolling and cyberbullying, I shall therefore dedicate myself to walking the Party Line of this community, and adopt the stance which so many demand instead of possessing a free mind. The Party Line of being a western shill shall be followed in all discussions to further the racist Anti-PRC agenda by the community.

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28547
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:00 pm

My understanding is that while HK and Taiwan are (as a matter fact) Chinese

It would be unexpected (for me) for China to make a claim in Singapore. I mean, sure there is a Chinese population but it’s one of many ethnicities and it’s historically a separate place.

I just don’t see China making a claim on Singapore. This would be like claiming Vancouver tbh
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
THIS IS WHY I PLAY VLADIMIR

Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts
Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

User avatar
Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11162
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:08 pm

Relikai wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Except SG isn't really as reliant on the US..

The top export destinations of Singapore are Hong Kong ($60.8B), China ($50.3B), Malaysia ($28.4B), Indonesia ($17.9B) and the United States ($16.6B).

Those HK exports are basically into China.. and China will be far more adamant in flexing its muscles.


Not sure if its paranoia or attempts to undermine our diplomatic resilience, but you can take assurance through the posts above.


I'll take the cold hard economics and the known determination of the CCP in regards to all people of Chinese descent to know that their influence will be inescapable over your opinion.

Relikai wrote:Essentially false to make such claims, as the only disconnect with China was being part of the UK during that period, with the culture of the people of HK coming from Guangdong which is in China.

China is large enough to have different cultures, so using that won't stand for this part of the world.


Except those different cultures are being subsumed into one monolithic Mandarin CCP state. Even in Shanghai they bemoan the loss of Shanghaiese as the language of the street, any national TV station must now broadcast in Mandarin.

That message last Tuesday on the Sina Weibo account of Gao Bowen provoked an outcry among people in Shanghai. Mr. Gao is a television host and performer of pingtan, a traditional Shanghai art form that includes telling jokes and stories, singing and playing music, and the end of his program stirred fears that the city’s unique language and traditions are in peril.

Satellite television is broadcast nationally, and government regulations bar the use of local dialects on national television. In January, the State Administration of Press, Publication, Radio, Film and Television issued a notice saying that all television and radio programs must use Mandarin Chinese, the standard national language, and avoid local dialects and foreign languages, China Daily reported. This policy has its critics, who say that while the central government is promoting what it calls ‘‘culture industries’’ at home and abroad, it is discouraging China’s own rich array of regional dialects and customs out of concern that strong local identities could challenge Beijing’s authority.

“This is going to be such a pity for us,’’ said Qi Jiayao, a call center employee who has campaigned to spread the use of the Shanghai dialect, which he says is under threat from the large influx of newcomers to the city who don’t speak it as well as the erosion of traditional ways of living. ‘‘Media plays a very crucial role in maintaining a language. If we have programs in the local dialect, it’s something living among us all. In order to keep a language alive it needs to be in the public sphere, not just the private sphere.’’

On the Sina Weibo account of the Shanghai Times newspaper, there was much disappointment.

‘‘Shanghai Dialect Talk is a really good program! These last years’ efforts to push Mandarin in Shanghai have really been effective. Why do they need to exterminate dialects!!!’’ wrote one commenter called Goldfish in the Grass.

Another post began: ‘‘Spread this with grief and indignation!’’ It repeated the news, then ended, ‘‘Online friends are expressing their discomfort and anger at the ending of the show.’’

‘‘This is like news of a death. I hope it proves to be just a rumor,’’ another commenter wrote.


Link
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

User avatar
Relikai
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9522
Founded: Feb 11, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Relikai » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:25 pm

We've already moved onto another topic which warrants that response, so the reply is essentially out of point.

However yes, a common language is the main source of communal unity. Every sovereign country would do so having a single common language for trade and social communication.

It is worrying for dialect speakers being able to speak Mandarin, Hokkien, Teochew and Cantonese myself, but uch acts are understandable throughout the course of history, and is not unjustified no matter how much you don't like it.

That said the dialects are not taught here either, it communicated in a common enough basis at home and among family to be ingrained among our tongue. Sympathizing with the dialects, a way to maintain these tongues would be through means other than the state. Simply crying about China here and there won't maintain your traditions, like crying about English here won't reach our kids the different dialects.
NationStates reveals to all the delusional fantasies of a certain people, and the proud ignorance of the circlejerking community.
Deliberate target of sinophobia on and off NS, victim of the Western media-influenced, proud victim of pro-West rhetoric. Staunch opposition of anarchy, of hypocrites shown by the myopic western-influenced crowd when it comes to hard evidence.
Due to trolling and cyberbullying, I shall therefore dedicate myself to walking the Party Line of this community, and adopt the stance which so many demand instead of possessing a free mind. The Party Line of being a western shill shall be followed in all discussions to further the racist Anti-PRC agenda by the community.

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 11nations, Askita, Forumland, Google Adsense [Bot], Greater Miami Shores, Liriena, Majestic-12 [Bot], Perchan, Samudera Darussalam, Telconi, The East Marches II, The Liberated Territories, Totally Not OEP, Washington Resistance Army

Advertisement

Remove ads