Hong Kong

[Macau]

Hong Kong should resist both western and PRC violence
時代革命

This is right.

Hong Kong's position unfortunately puts it right in the middle of the US and China's great power struggles.

[Neanderthaland]

Um, no. I would not protest just to skip school, nor would I do it for money. If I truly wanted to support an idea, I would go out there and protest (which I have done, once.)

As for paying, people are getting shot at and dying. That's gotta be a helluva lot of money. Let's say 1/8th of the nation is protesting (might be more, might be less, I could not find good numbers). That's still around a million protesters. To give each one a hundred dollars would be 100 million USD. The only people that rich are oligarchs who want to, you know, maintaining good relationships with China? Besides, 100 dollars isn't enough for me to get shot at and I doubt many people would get shot at for 100 dollars.

The only way for this dumb hypothetical to work is if HK is so poor and starving that people are willing to cause a civil disturbance for less than 100 dollars each. (The protests have no centralized authority by the way, so there is no organized group to bribe. Meaning that most of the protesters would need to be bribed.)

You... you protested in the past?

I’m shocked

Is this some kind of bad Pycelle impression?

[Hong Kong]

Hong Kong should resist both western and PRC violence
時代革命

Western violence? The Opium Wars have been over for more than a century.

British rule only ended twenty years ago

Carrie Lam's been recycling a lot of old British colonial laws used to put down protests before, like the emergency powers that were invoked to ban masks. Also if you look at who supports the police & china's agenda it's the super rich who benefited off of cooperation with the British before...

and now people like marco rubio and ted cruz are using the protests to try to take down the PRC but it's gonna backfire

[Macau]

Hong Kong should resist both western and PRC violence
時代革命

Western violence? The Opium Wars have been over for more than a century.

You seriously believe the Opium Wars were the last attempt to use violence against China by the West?

Never heard of the Unequal Treaties? The Eight-Nation Alliance? CIA training of Tibetan guerrillas? Support for the ROC during the Chinese Civil War? Selling arms to Taiwan? Sending ships to the Taiwan Strait? Threats to completely destroy Manchuria through nuclear weapons during the Korean War?

These are all examples of violence, support of violence, or the threat of violence, even if you may find them justified.

[The Free Joy State]

You... you protested in the past?

I’m shocked

Is this some kind of bad Pycelle impression?

It appears IM is easily and repeatedly shocked by the notion that people would defend or express principles/have defended or expressed principles through the means of peaceful and democratic protest.

If anyone tells him they've signed a petition demanding action (*raises hand*) he may need smelling salts.

EDIT: Though, probably best we don't turn this into the Everyone Argue with IM thread. It seems to have been happening a lot, and I don't see any progress coming from it. The progress of the protestors in Hong Kong should probably be our focus [/notamod]

[Neanderthaland]

Western violence? The Opium Wars have been over for more than a century.

British rule only ended twenty years ago

Carrie Lam's been recycling a lot of old British colonial laws used to put down protests before, like the emergency powers that were invoked to ban masks. Also if you look at who supports the police & china's agenda it's the super rich who benefited off of cooperation with the British before...

and now people like marco rubio and ted cruz are using the protests to try to take down the PRC but it's gonna backfire

Well you absolutely should feel entitled to defend yourselves against Western Aggression. But it's important to note that, at the moment, the West is pretty solidly with you. So maybe best not to alienate your allies?

[Macau]

Good

We'll cut down on the wars and revolutions stemming from further Balkanization

What would you do if the UN did recognise an independent Hong Kong?

I mean, that would never happen...

China and Russia would both veto it.

[Cedoria]

If you all think it’s so unrealistic (absolutely impossible, I think it’s at least possible) that a third party might be paying the protestors then let me ask you this:

How many of you would skip school/work and put both irreparably at risk just to engage in dangerous protests for over several months?

See my point?

Contrary to the point you seem to think you're making, people ARE capable of deciding that an issue is important enough to them that they are willing to put themselves at risk of inconvenience or harm to do something about it.

For evidence... read a book sometime about the many times people actually do this.

But at least you've gone from being sure they were paid off to only now admitting you think that with no evidence. Progress of a kind.

[Hong Kong]

British rule only ended twenty years ago

Carrie Lam's been recycling a lot of old British colonial laws used to put down protests before, like the emergency powers that were invoked to ban masks. Also if you look at who supports the police & china's agenda it's the super rich who benefited off of cooperation with the British before...

and now people like marco rubio and ted cruz are using the protests to try to take down the PRC but it's gonna backfire

Well you absolutely should feel entitled to defend yourselves against Western Aggression. But it's important to note that, at the moment, the West is pretty solidly with you. So maybe best not to alienate your allies?

HK is just a pawn for the west to take down China, and even then the west pretty much abandoned/discarded HK after the handover..

[Macau]

Problem with that is the PRC never had control of Taiwan.

Yes, and...? That isn't knocking any holes in the argument. PRC considers ROC a province in rebellion. The only reason they have not attempted to take the island by military force is that the US is openly protecting Taiwan.

That's not how things work.

Taiwan is ruled by a separate government and for all purposes is basically an independent state. Although states around the world recognize the PRC as the only China, this is with tacit recognition of Taiwan's situation.

There are no controversies on the world stage, however, about Hong Kong's belonging to the PRC. The PRC also actually controls HK, unlike with Taiwan. The PRC wouldn't be invading Hong Kong. The United States would have to invade Hong Kong and kill Chinese troops, sparking a war.

This is something that neither the US nor China want.

[Tuthina]

British rule only ended twenty years ago

Carrie Lam's been recycling a lot of old British colonial laws used to put down protests before, like the emergency powers that were invoked to ban masks. Also if you look at who supports the police & china's agenda it's the super rich who benefited off of cooperation with the British before...

and now people like marco rubio and ted cruz are using the protests to try to take down the PRC but it's gonna backfire

Well you absolutely should feel entitled to defend yourselves against Western Aggression. But it's important to note that, at the moment, the West is pretty solidly with you. So maybe best not to alienate your allies?

The protesters as a whole (at least, as much as a leaderless movement can be) seems pretty friendly to "the West", both for that precise reason and the fact that while Western countries might not be perfect, at least they were founded on ideals that many of the protesters can relate and support, as opposed to that of PRC.

Is this some kind of bad Pycelle impression?

It appears IM is easily and repeatedly shocked by the notion that people would defend or express principles/have defended or expressed principles through the means of peaceful and democratic protest.

If anyone tells him they've signed a petition demanding action (*raises hand*) he may need smelling salts.

EDIT: Though, probably best we don't turn this into the Everyone Argue with IM thread. It seems to have been happening a lot, and I don't see any progress coming from it. The progress of the protestors in Hong Kong should probably be our focus [/notamod]

Righto, so in other news, the convenor of Hong Kong’s Civil Human Rights Front (CHRF) has been attacked by unidentified men with hammers in Kowloon days before the planned October 20 protest in Kowloon (warning: graphic images).

[Neanderthaland]

Well you absolutely should feel entitled to defend yourselves against Western Aggression. But it's important to note that, at the moment, the West is pretty solidly with you. So maybe best not to alienate your allies?

HK is just a pawn for the west to take down China, and even then the west pretty much abandoned/discarded HK after the handover..

How does Hong Kong "take down" China?

[Gormwood]

HK is just a pawn for the west to take down China, and even then the west pretty much abandoned/discarded HK after the handover..

How does Hong Kong "take down" China?

Hong Kong is clearly China's exhaust port.

[Hong Kong]

HK is just a pawn for the west to take down China, and even then the west pretty much abandoned/discarded HK after the handover..

How does Hong Kong "take down" China?

nah the west is looking for as many ways to undermine the PRC as possible and distorting protests in HK is a good way for them to do that

[Neanderthaland]

How does Hong Kong "take down" China?

nah the west is looking for as many ways to undermine the PRC as possible and distorting protests in HK is a good way for them to do that

Have you seen the West recently? This level of scheming is beyond it.

The West supports Hong Kong because the West supports democracy and underdogs.

[Hong Kong]

nah the west is looking for as many ways to undermine the PRC as possible and distorting protests in HK is a good way for them to do that

Have you seen the West recently? This level of scheming is beyond it.

The West supports Hong Kong because the West supports democracy and underdogs.

I'd disagree that the west supports underdogs, especially in East Asia.. the US actively propped up the KMT while it was doing this in Taiwan.

[Infected Mushroom]

If you all think it’s so unrealistic (absolutely impossible, I think it’s at least possible) that a third party might be paying the protestors then let me ask you this:

How many of you would skip school/work and put both irreparably at risk just to engage in dangerous protests for over several months?

See my point?

Contrary to the point you seem to think you're making, people ARE capable of deciding that an issue is important enough to them that they are willing to put themselves at risk of inconvenience or harm to do something about it.

For evidence... read a book sometime about the many times people actually do this.

But at least you've gone from being sure they were paid off to only now admitting you think that with no evidence. Progress of a kind.

But for such an extended period (consecutive months) for no compensation financially?

Even if true, it’s shocking to me

I mean one or two days sure but this?

[Macau]

Is this entire thread 350 pages of everybody vs. IM?

[Tuthina]

How does Hong Kong "take down" China?

nah the west is looking for as many ways to undermine the PRC as possible and distorting protests in HK is a good way for them to do that

Well, considering that weakening PRC (and CCP) is arguably a necessary step for the demands of the protesters to be met, I don't think a lot of distortion is really needed.

[Necroghastia]

Contrary to the point you seem to think you're making, people ARE capable of deciding that an issue is important enough to them that they are willing to put themselves at risk of inconvenience or harm to do something about it.

For evidence... read a book sometime about the many times people actually do this.

But at least you've gone from being sure they were paid off to only now admitting you think that with no evidence. Progress of a kind.

But for such an extended period (consecutive months) for no compensation financially?

Even if true, it’s shocking to me

I mean one or two days sure but this?

Believe it or not IM, there's some people who have the honor to fight for what they believe in.

[Macau]

nah the west is looking for as many ways to undermine the PRC as possible and distorting protests in HK is a good way for them to do that

Have you seen the West recently? This level of scheming is beyond it.

The West supports Hong Kong because the West supports democracy and underdogs.

The West supports what furthers its interests.

The United States has supported dictatorships across the world, including across East and Southeast Asia. The CIA helped created the conservative LDP in Japan and gave a significant amount of funding to it for decades, helping to cement Japan's status as a de-facto single party state.

That's neither supporting democracy nor underdogs.

[Neanderthaland]

Have you seen the West recently? This level of scheming is beyond it.

The West supports Hong Kong because the West supports democracy and underdogs.

I'd disagree that the west supports underdogs, especially in East Asia.. the US actively propped up the KMT while it was doing this in Taiwan.

So, that was 70 years ago...

[Infected Mushroom]

But for such an extended period (consecutive months) for no compensation financially?

Even if true, it’s shocking to me

I mean one or two days sure but this?

Believe it or not IM, there's some people who have the honor to fight for what they believe in.

But this is just criminality!

They’re destroying things and gathering in unauthorized zones and provoking the public/police

It’s not honourable, it’s the opposite

It’s Wrongful

[Macau]

You're still a tankie, which is unaffected by gender or nationality.

I'm not a Tankie, I despise Khrushchev

I'd say many tankies hate Khrushchev...

[Macau]

I'd disagree that the west supports underdogs, especially in East Asia.. the US actively propped up the KMT while it was doing this in Taiwan.

So, that was 70 years ago...

The incident was seventy years ago, but Taiwan didn't stop being a dictatorship until the 1980s and 1990s. That's fairly recent.

Also, there are more examples of similar things.