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Hong Kong

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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In retrospect..

The UK was right to handover HK to China
45
19%
The UK should have kept HK
61
26%
The UK should have set up HK as an independent, democratic state
115
49%
Other
14
6%
 
Total votes : 235

User avatar
Heloin
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5002
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:58 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:As someone who lives in Hong Kong, I don’t want any trouble.

That’s my priority.

If you ask me, then I consider any protests at this point to be highly irresponsible and reckless. I’m not interested in seeing a military crackdown here because some idealists start some demonstrations.

Having seen the mockery that is democracy in countries like the USA, I can safely say it’s not worth dying for (it’s more ugly than beautiful). And it would be a shame if this led to actual bloodshed and economic disruption.

Nah, dictatorships are terrible places to live. You can keep talking about how much better it is then places like the States but it just ain't true.

Bombadil wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:You'd rather live in a totalitarian country like China than a democracy like the USA?

*chuckles*

Okay, fam. Move to China. If you find a way around the internet censorship and can log on to NS, let us all know how it is.


NS is not blocked in China, at least not the last time I was there a couple months ago.

Great Firewall to lax, eh Comrade.
An Africa Free From Hate
I would not worship a God who is homophobic and that is how deeply I feel about this - Desmond Tutu

My Names Jennifer, a 20 something Rabbit and Rhodie Girl. Proudly Zimbabwean, and currently a Floridian too. TET Disc Jockey.
I love Rugby. Go Springboks, Go Sables! I draw things and make pixel stuff. And now maps! Take a look!

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Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25098
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:58 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Bombadil wrote:Quite honestly I'd be ok with the Cantonese speaking population of southern China seceding but that will never happen.

I too love unironically dreaming of a more Balkanized mainland. But even if just Hong Kong and Taiwan got their independence I'd be 10x happier.


And I’m telling you that’s a highly irresponsible point of view because millions will be killed for some lofty idea of Freedom
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Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8754
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:58 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
NS is not blocked in China, at least not the last time I was there a couple months ago.

It's not?

That's surprising, tbh.

I can post a copypasta that might get the site flagged by Beijing but that might count as spam.
Last edited by Pasong Tirad on Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
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Nakena
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1562
Founded: May 06, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:00 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:I too love unironically dreaming of a more Balkanized mainland. But even if just Hong Kong and Taiwan got their independence I'd be 10x happier.


And I’m telling you that’s a highly irresponsible point of view because millions will be killed for some lofty idea of Freedom


I doubt the PRC is going to kill millions of people in HK. How would that going to happen anyways?

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:It's not?

That's surprising, tbh.

I can post a copypasta that might get the site flagged by Beijing but that might count as spam.


Ah I know that one too. A splendid idea.

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8754
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:00 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:I too love unironically dreaming of a more Balkanized mainland. But even if just Hong Kong and Taiwan got their independence I'd be 10x happier.


And I’m telling you that’s a highly irresponsible point of view because millions will be killed for some lofty idea of Freedom

Authoritarian wet dreams are disgusting. Dictatorships are and forever will be terrible for everyone but the elites.
"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
Filipino||Catholic Liberationist||Leftist||He/Him||Bisexual||Trans Rights
Rojava||Free Taiwan||Assyria||Zapatistas
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User avatar
Nova Cyberia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1521
Founded: May 06, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nova Cyberia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:00 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:It's not?

That's surprising, tbh.

I can post a copypasta that might get the site flagged by Beijing but that might count as spam.

Eh, let's not. If this is one of the few outlets that Chinese people can view that isn't complete CPC propaganda then let's keep it that way.
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25098
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:01 pm

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:As someone who lives in Hong Kong, I don’t want any trouble.

That’s my priority.

If you ask me, then I consider any protests at this point to be highly irresponsible and reckless. I’m not interested in seeing a military crackdown here because some idealists start some demonstrations.

Having seen the mockery that is democracy in countries like the USA, I can safely say it’s not worth dying for (it’s more ugly than beautiful). And it would be a shame if this led to actual bloodshed and economic disruption.

Nah, dictatorships are terrible places to live. You can keep talking about how much better it is then places like the States but it just ain't true.

Bombadil wrote:


You can already elect half the legislature here.

That should honestly be enough.

It’s not worth fighting a war/throwing this place into anarchy just so we can replace a corrupt partly unelected pro big corporation oligarchy... with a completely elected corrupt pro big corporation oligarchy

The people advocating are doing so from a comfortable place abroad or else have just not really thought it through
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

User avatar
Nakena
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1562
Founded: May 06, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:02 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
And I’m telling you that’s a highly irresponsible point of view because millions will be killed for some lofty idea of Freedom

Authoritarian wet dreams are disgusting. Dictatorships are and forever will be terrible for everyone but the elites.


The PRC isn't authoritarian or even autocratic. It is currently turning into a totalitarian state. Thats something very different. And way, way worse.

User avatar
Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10004
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:02 pm

It's hard to know what's going on right now.. with the reading delayed I'd hope things become slightly less tense today. The bill is set to be passed next Thursday however so I doubt this will go away anytime soon. Meanwhile..

“Just like equipping us with guns, it’s just to be used as a very last resort to protect ourselves, just look at how many people there are,” he said. “As long as they don’t attack us, I don’t think we need to escalate to use of force.”

The officer said that within the force some were more sympathetic to students, while others felt annoyed at having to work long hours. “But neither students nor police can solve this, that’s beyond us,” he said.


Still, not sure how I will get home today as it's centred on my way.. I can get a shitty ferry from Aberdeen back to my island I suppose. Much like many other companies I both allowed my team to work from home and attend the protest according to their conscience with the caveat to stay away from the front lines and run if there's any trouble.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

User avatar
Heloin
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5002
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:02 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:I too love unironically dreaming of a more Balkanized mainland. But even if just Hong Kong and Taiwan got their independence I'd be 10x happier.


And I’m telling you that’s a highly irresponsible point of view because millions will be killed for some lofty idea of Freedom

If that were the case then Africa and Asia should have never been decolonised by the Empires of Europe.
An Africa Free From Hate
I would not worship a God who is homophobic and that is how deeply I feel about this - Desmond Tutu

My Names Jennifer, a 20 something Rabbit and Rhodie Girl. Proudly Zimbabwean, and currently a Floridian too. TET Disc Jockey.
I love Rugby. Go Springboks, Go Sables! I draw things and make pixel stuff. And now maps! Take a look!

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25098
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:03 pm

Nakena wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:Authoritarian wet dreams are disgusting. Dictatorships are and forever will be terrible for everyone but the elites.


The PRC isn't authoritarian or even autocratic. It is currently turning into a totalitarian state. Thats something very different. And way, way worse.


I agree that the internet policy and this “you must be a CCP member to have social status” policies are pretty vexing.

But on most other fronts, things are quite acceptable
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Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25098
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:04 pm

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
And I’m telling you that’s a highly irresponsible point of view because millions will be killed for some lofty idea of Freedom

If that were the case then Africa and Asia should have never been decolonised by the Empires of Europe.


Yes

Your point?
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Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

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New Bremerton
Envoy
 
Posts: 291
Founded: Jul 20, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New Bremerton » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:04 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Please elaborate.


I mean Singapore was originally part of Malaysia until it was expelled in '65. It functions perfectly well as an independent city state. If the UK had set up HK as an independent and democratic state in the 60's for example, I think it could be functioning well as an independent city state as well.

Obviously by the 80's it would have been impossible as China would never accept it. Yet, similar to Taiwan, it might not necessarily take the step of invading HK if it had been established as independent earlier.

Quite honestly I'd be ok with the Cantonese speaking population of southern China seceding but that will never happen.


Britain was in no position to cling on to Hong Kong, grant it independence or hand it over to Taiwan. Britain is no longer the imperial superpower it once was and China was already an emerging superpower by the time of the Handover. Granting Hong Kong independence would likely have resulted in it being invaded and annexed immediately. Besides, the only British politician who really cares about Hong Kong is its last colonial governor, Chris Patten. Westminster doesn't really give two shits otherwise. China made all these promises of freedom and autonomy only to renege on them. The people of Taiwan are not going to fall for the same trick. As for Singapore, it would be nice if they rejoined Malaysia and contributed to the Malaysian economy and political landscape. Not only that, but the authoritarian PAP would likely either be toppled or lose most of its bite, being reduced to a mere state government within Malaysia.

User avatar
Nakena
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1562
Founded: May 06, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:06 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Nakena wrote:
The PRC isn't authoritarian or even autocratic. It is currently turning into a totalitarian state. Thats something very different. And way, way worse.


I agree that the internet policy and this “you must be a CCP member to have social status” policies are pretty vexing.

But on most other fronts, things are quite acceptable


If the CCP is going to win the current confrontation they're probably in the short or long run imposing their system to varying degrees over the very place where you, by your own admission, currently reside in.

Including internet censorship, social credit points etc.
Last edited by Nakena on Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10004
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:06 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Nakena wrote:
The PRC isn't authoritarian or even autocratic. It is currently turning into a totalitarian state. Thats something very different. And way, way worse.


I agree that the internet policy and this “you must be a CCP member to have social status” policies are pretty vexing.

But on most other fronts, things are quite acceptable


If China was opening up more I might agree, but all signs point to it cracking down on any form of dissent - this is a nation that bans Winnie-the-Pooh because of a comic reference to its leader.

HK is the one place people can reasonably voice out their desire for greater freedom, that a protest like this can even occur. I am fine with making as much noise as possible to retain it and glad the issue is on many front covers around the world.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

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Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25098
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:07 pm

Nakena wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
And I’m telling you that’s a highly irresponsible point of view because millions will be killed for some lofty idea of Freedom


I doubt the PRC is going to kill millions of people in HK. How would that going to happen anyways?


As someone with lots and lots to lose, I’m not interested in rolling the dice

Protests and revolutions are often started by irresponsible people with nothing to lose (and cheered on by spectators from abroad). End result is usually that everyone in the immediate aftermath is worse off.
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Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

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Heloin
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5002
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:07 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:If that were the case then Africa and Asia should have never been decolonised by the Empires of Europe.


Yes

Your point?

Ok... You just opened a completely different can of worms unrelated to this thread because I didn't think anyone would ever reasonably say yes to that question.
An Africa Free From Hate
I would not worship a God who is homophobic and that is how deeply I feel about this - Desmond Tutu

My Names Jennifer, a 20 something Rabbit and Rhodie Girl. Proudly Zimbabwean, and currently a Floridian too. TET Disc Jockey.
I love Rugby. Go Springboks, Go Sables! I draw things and make pixel stuff. And now maps! Take a look!

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25098
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:09 pm

Nakena wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
I agree that the internet policy and this “you must be a CCP member to have social status” policies are pretty vexing.

But on most other fronts, things are quite acceptable


If the CCP is going to win the current confrontation they're probably in the short or long run imposing their system to varying degrees over the very place where you, by your own admission, currently reside in.

Including internet censorship, social credit points etc.


They haven’t yet to a degree where it’s worth rolling the dice

It doesn’t concern me if my corrupt pro business overlords are completely elected or partially elected (because let’s face it, it’s rigged either way and these are the only types of people they’d install in this corrupt place)

The technical or symbolic process behind the machinery isn’t worth dying for
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bombadil
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Posts: 10004
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:10 pm

New Bremerton wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
I mean Singapore was originally part of Malaysia until it was expelled in '65. It functions perfectly well as an independent city state. If the UK had set up HK as an independent and democratic state in the 60's for example, I think it could be functioning well as an independent city state as well.

Obviously by the 80's it would have been impossible as China would never accept it. Yet, similar to Taiwan, it might not necessarily take the step of invading HK if it had been established as independent earlier.

Quite honestly I'd be ok with the Cantonese speaking population of southern China seceding but that will never happen.


Britain was in no position to cling on to Hong Kong, grant it independence or hand it over to Taiwan. Britain is no longer the imperial superpower it once was and China was already an emerging superpower by the time of the Handover. Granting Hong Kong independence would likely have resulted in it being invaded and annexed immediately. Besides, the only British politician who really cares about Hong Kong is its last colonial governor, Chris Patten. Westminster doesn't really give two shits otherwise. China made all these promises of freedom and autonomy only to renege on them. The people of Taiwan are not going to fall for the same trick. As for Singapore, it would be nice if they rejoined Malaysia and contributed to the Malaysian economy and political landscape. Not only that, but the authoritarian PAP would likely either be toppled or lose most of its bite, being reduced to a mere state government within Malaysia.


Well hence I said if it was to be done it had to have been done in the 60's, the 80's were indeed far too late for anything other than handing it over.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

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Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25098
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:11 pm

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Yes

Your point?

Ok... You just opened a completely different can of worms unrelated to this thread because I didn't think anyone would ever reasonably say yes to that question.


I believe European Empires brought a great deal of world stability

I prefer it to the new model of irresponsible “pro-freedom” imperialism used by countries like the USA where they enter, destabilize a country, and leave no functional government for a while
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

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Nakena
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Posts: 1562
Founded: May 06, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:15 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:They haven’t yet to a degree where it’s worth rolling the dice

It doesn’t concern me if my corrupt pro business overlords are completely elected or partially elected (because let’s face it, it’s rigged either way and these are the only types of people they’d install in this corrupt place)

The technical or symbolic process behind the machinery isn’t worth dying for


I do not even disagree. My point is not the system of governance, nor I am argueing in favor of democracy in this case. I doubt how democratic British HK was with a imperial appointed Governor.

However theres a difference between that and the kind of a totalitarian system as it is currently implemented in mainland China. In the former you can just stay out of politics and mind your own business, while the later won't let you. Thats where I draw the line.

I hope you have an exit and escape plan for the worst case, though I do not expect Beijing to crack down too heavily even if they manage to pull it through.
Last edited by Nakena on Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10004
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:17 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Ok... You just opened a completely different can of worms unrelated to this thread because I didn't think anyone would ever reasonably say yes to that question.


I believe European Empires brought a great deal of world stability

I prefer it to the new model of irresponsible “pro-freedom” imperialism used by countries like the USA where they enter, destabilize a country, and leave no functional government for a while


Yeah, the stability of the First World War..
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

User avatar
Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10004
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:20 pm

Nakena wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:They haven’t yet to a degree where it’s worth rolling the dice

It doesn’t concern me if my corrupt pro business overlords are completely elected or partially elected (because let’s face it, it’s rigged either way and these are the only types of people they’d install in this corrupt place)

The technical or symbolic process behind the machinery isn’t worth dying for


I do not even disagree. My point is not the system of governance, nor I am argueing in favor of democracy in this case. I doubt how democratic British HK was with a imperial appointed Governor.

However theres a difference between that and the kind of a totalitarian system as it is currently implemented in mainland China. In the former you can just stay out of politics and mind your own business, while the later won't let you. Thats where I draw the line.

I hope you have an exit and escape plan for the worst case, though I do not expect Beijing to crack down too heavily even if they manage to pull it through.


HK did sort of shoot itself in the foot given it was offered a form of universal suffrage, where the entire city would be able to vote for approved candidates. I personally think they should have accepted that given it's a step in a better direction than having 1,200 business elites voting for a leader.

Aspects of the protests can be relatively futile 'anti-Beijing at all costs' actions, but this particular law is specifically troubling given it directly steps on the right to dissent.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

User avatar
Heloin
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5002
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:21 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Ok... You just opened a completely different can of worms unrelated to this thread because I didn't think anyone would ever reasonably say yes to that question.


I believe European Empires brought a great deal of world stability

I prefer it to the new model of irresponsible “pro-freedom” imperialism used by countries like the USA where they enter, destabilize a country, and leave no functional government for a while

You don't know a lot about colonial history do you?
An Africa Free From Hate
I would not worship a God who is homophobic and that is how deeply I feel about this - Desmond Tutu

My Names Jennifer, a 20 something Rabbit and Rhodie Girl. Proudly Zimbabwean, and currently a Floridian too. TET Disc Jockey.
I love Rugby. Go Springboks, Go Sables! I draw things and make pixel stuff. And now maps! Take a look!

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8754
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:21 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:If that were the case then Africa and Asia should have never been decolonised by the Empires of Europe.


Yes

Your point?

Disgusting.
"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
Filipino||Catholic Liberationist||Leftist||He/Him||Bisexual||Trans Rights
Rojava||Free Taiwan||Assyria||Zapatistas
Puppet: Nangka

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