NationStates

Thanatttynia wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:Its always been a city that exploits the workers.

It's just how it rolls.

Nothing like China, then, the country famed for how little exploitation of workers goes on within it

Sure, they have suicide nets on the factories...but, uh, that's fine. That's how it's always been. Yeah.

Infected Mushroom wrote:

Thanatttynia wrote:Its hard to stay safe and conduct business now? Try in 20 years when HK is just another Chinese city. Protests like this not happening in mainland China isn't because its easier there to stay safe and conduct business, it's because protest there will get you disappeared/killed by the state

China has no plans to interfere with Hong Kong as a center of free flowing commerce

China understands this is what makes Hong Kong successful economically and what is good for Hong Kong will be good for China too

lol

You yourself found no problem with cities like Shanghai -- economic powerhouses all wrapped up in Chinese authoritarianism.

Why the fuck would China restrain itself from turning Hong Kong into Shanghai, dozens of disappeared dissidents at a time?

Infected Mushroom wrote:

Pasong Tirad wrote:"That's how it's always been" is a shit argument. The fact that this is always how this city has operated doesn't justify Beijing taking it over and making it a hundred times worse.

it was a capitalistic hellhole under the British too

Hong Kong is a port city, AKA a bastion of capitalism at its best and worst

if you interfere with the free flow of commerce the city's economy will suffer, every side understands this

And this law would interfere with that.. it would make HK a less appealing place to do business.

Infected Mushroom wrote:

Pasong Tirad wrote:"That's how it's always been" is a shit argument. The fact that this is always how this city has operated doesn't justify Beijing taking it over and making it a hundred times worse.

it was a capitalistic hellhole under the British too

Hong Kong is a port city, AKA a bastion of capitalism at its best and worst

if you interfere with the free flow of commerce the city's economy will suffer, every side understands this

Who the fuck cares what the British did? We're talking now and about what Beijing is doing to the city now. There's literally no point to bringing this tangent up other than to try and divert the conversation or to somehow whatabout us into looking like hypocrites for not talking about the British conquest. Honestly you don't sound any better than the 50 Cent Army - for all we know you actually are part of the 50 Centers.

Pasong Tirad wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:
it was a capitalistic hellhole under the British too

Hong Kong is a port city, AKA a bastion of capitalism at its best and worst

if you interfere with the free flow of commerce the city's economy will suffer, every side understands this

Who the fuck cares what the British did? We're talking now and about what Beijing is doing to the city now. There's literally no point to bringing this tangent up other than to try and divert the conversation or to somehow whatabout us into looking like hypocrites for not talking about the British conquest. Honestly you don't sound any better than the 50 Cent Army - for all we know you actually are part of the 50 Centers.

I'm showing that Hong Kong's governance as a "free market paradise" is not a historical anomaly imposed by China but part of a broader historical trend that predates it

I think there's a tendency for Hong Kong-ers to blame China for everything while really, its the natural forces of the free market and capitalism (that they paradoxically support)

Bombadil wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:
it was a capitalistic hellhole under the British too

Hong Kong is a port city, AKA a bastion of capitalism at its best and worst

if you interfere with the free flow of commerce the city's economy will suffer, every side understands this

And this law would interfere with that.. it would make HK a less appealing place to do business.

not really, its a huge hassle to get the CE to approve every extradition so I'm sure its a blunt tool that won't be used too often

every single time its used, there will be a bit of a political mess so I'm sure it will only be used in situations where its really needed to speed things up

you can think of it as a selective tool for emergency law and order situations

Infected Mushroom wrote:

Pasong Tirad wrote:Who the fuck cares what the British did? We're talking now and about what Beijing is doing to the city now. There's literally no point to bringing this tangent up other than to try and divert the conversation or to somehow whatabout us into looking like hypocrites for not talking about the British conquest. Honestly you don't sound any better than the 50 Cent Army - for all we know you actually are part of the 50 Centers.

I'm showing that Hong Kong's governance as a "free market paradise" is not a historical anomaly imposed by China but part of a broader historical trend that predates it

I think there's a tendency for Hong Kong-ers to blame China for everything while really, its the natural forces of the free market and capitalism (that they paradoxically support)

The West is mostly capitalistic without being authoritarian with a Euro-American-whatever face.

Infected Mushroom wrote:

Bombadil wrote:
And this law would interfere with that.. it would make HK a less appealing place to do business.

not really, its a huge hassle to get the CE to approve every extradition so I'm sure its a blunt tool that won't be used too often

every single time its used, there will be a bit of a political mess so I'm sure it will only be used in situations where its really needed to speed things up

you can think of it as a selective tool for emergency law and order situations

Yes, the CE has shown itself not to be a willing tool for Chinese domination over Hong Kong's laws. It would never just blindly follow Beijing's orders!

Infected Mushroom wrote:

Pasong Tirad wrote:Who the fuck cares what the British did? We're talking now and about what Beijing is doing to the city now. There's literally no point to bringing this tangent up other than to try and divert the conversation or to somehow whatabout us into looking like hypocrites for not talking about the British conquest. Honestly you don't sound any better than the 50 Cent Army - for all we know you actually are part of the 50 Centers.

I'm showing that Hong Kong's governance as a "free market paradise" is not a historical anomaly imposed by China but part of a broader historical trend that predates it

I think there's a tendency for Hong Kong-ers to blame China for everything while really, its the natural forces of the free market and capitalism (that they paradoxically support)

Nobody cares. You don't seem to understand that nobody fucking cares because if nobody actually cared that tiny, rickety wooden moral leg you have to stand on is going to disappear entirely. Hong Kong's whatever the fuck status as a "free-market paradise" is not and has never been the point. You're the one making it about business because that's really all your concerned about. Who cares how many tear gas canisters they throw around and who cares how many people get hit and possibly get killed by rubber bullets as long as the stores are open and as long as you can go online and play your fucking video games, amirite?

This isn't about business this isn't about economics this is about personal and political freedoms that Hong Kong has always had and that Beijing is trying to chip away at one bill at a time, one disappeared activist at a time.

Infected Mushroom wrote:

Bombadil wrote:
And this law would interfere with that.. it would make HK a less appealing place to do business.

not really, its a huge hassle to get the CE to approve every extradition so I'm sure its a blunt tool that won't be used too often

every single time its used, there will be a bit of a political mess so I'm sure it will only be used in situations where its really needed to speed things up

you can think of it as a selective tool for emergency law and order situations

Funny, that's exactly what Lam and Beijing are saying.

it's almost like, you can't actually trust their empty promises.

Infected Mushroom wrote:

Bombadil wrote:
And this law would interfere with that.. it would make HK a less appealing place to do business.

not really, its a huge hassle to get the CE to approve every extradition so I'm sure its a blunt tool that won't be used too often

every single time its used, there will be a bit of a political mess so I'm sure it will only be used in situations where its really needed to speed things up

you can think of it as a selective tool for emergency law and order situations

It doesn't have to be used at all yet still be a Damocles Sword hanging over HK. The independent rule of law is what makes it an attractive place for business, and that's beyond the stifle it places on everyone for free speech.

Duhon wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:
I'm showing that Hong Kong's governance as a "free market paradise" is not a historical anomaly imposed by China but part of a broader historical trend that predates it

I think there's a tendency for Hong Kong-ers to blame China for everything while really, its the natural forces of the free market and capitalism (that they paradoxically support)

The West is mostly capitalistic without being authoritarian with a Euro-American-whatever face.

the West is really really screwed over by the high taxes

if we imposed that system in Hong Kong, it wouldn't be popular

Bombadil wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:
not really, its a huge hassle to get the CE to approve every extradition so I'm sure its a blunt tool that won't be used too often

every single time its used, there will be a bit of a political mess so I'm sure it will only be used in situations where its really needed to speed things up

you can think of it as a selective tool for emergency law and order situations

It doesn't have to be used at all yet still be a Damocles Sword hanging over HK. The independent rule of law is what makes it an attractive place for business, and that's beyond the stifle it places on everyone for free speech.

the independent rule of law is maintained so long as China doesn't over-use the extradition tool, I see no conflict

businesses in Hong Kong can still expect a certain standard of regularity with respect to rule of law

Infected Mushroom wrote:

Bombadil wrote:
It doesn't have to be used at all yet still be a Damocles Sword hanging over HK. The independent rule of law is what makes it an attractive place for business, and that's beyond the stifle it places on everyone for free speech.

the independent rule of law is maintained so long as China doesn't over-use the extradition tool, I see no conflict

businesses in Hong Kong can still expect a certain standard of regularity with respect to rule of law

Yeah well even HK businesses understand it's an issue..

Hong Kong’s local business associations, which are normally welcoming of Beijing, have been among the proposal’s most vocal critics.

Link

I may be late to the party, but reading 1 paragraph into the guardian article and I can already see serious problems with this bill. Tbh East Turkestan, Tibet, Aksai Chin, maybe HK and Taiwan shouldn't be part of China anymore imo.

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:I may be late to the party, but reading 1 paragraph into the guardian article and I can already see serious problems with this bill. Tbh East Turkestan, Tibet, Aksai Chin, maybe HK and Taiwan shouldn't be part of China anymore imo.

I disagree, China needs to be as strong as possible as a counterbalance to American interests in the region

it has a part to play and the world is more stable for it

Infected Mushroom wrote:

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:I may be late to the party, but reading 1 paragraph into the guardian article and I can already see serious problems with this bill. Tbh East Turkestan, Tibet, Aksai Chin, maybe HK and Taiwan shouldn't be part of China anymore imo.

I disagree, China needs to be as strong as possible as a counterbalance to American interests in the region

it has a part to play and the world is more stable for it

Stability isn’t inherently good, though.

Infected Mushroom wrote:

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:I may be late to the party, but reading 1 paragraph into the guardian article and I can already see serious problems with this bill. Tbh East Turkestan, Tibet, Aksai Chin, maybe HK and Taiwan shouldn't be part of China anymore imo.

I disagree, China needs to be as strong as possible as a counterbalance to American interests in the region

It can do that without oppressing people.

Infected Mushroom wrote:it has a part to play and the world is more stable for it

The underlined is a fat lie

Kowani wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:
I disagree, China needs to be as strong as possible as a counterbalance to American interests in the region

it has a part to play and the world is more stable for it

Stability isn’t inherently good, though.

Um.......

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:
I disagree, China needs to be as strong as possible as a counterbalance to American interests in the region

It can do that without oppressing people.

Infected Mushroom wrote:it has a part to play and the world is more stable for it

The underlined is a fat lie

the alternate is civil war, re-colonization, interventions etc

in such a populated part of the world, millions would die

Infected Mushroom wrote:

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:It can do that without oppressing people.

The underlined is a fat lie

the alternate is civil war, re-colonization, interventions etc

in such a populated part of the world, millions would die

This does not address my points, nor is this proven.

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:

Kowani wrote:Stability isn’t inherently good, though.

Um.......

Imperial Russia was stable for the majority of its existence, but I doubt most people would want to live there.

Kowani wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:
I disagree, China needs to be as strong as possible as a counterbalance to American interests in the region

it has a part to play and the world is more stable for it

Stability isn’t inherently good, though.

It's not as though fast rising authoritarian powers have ever caused any issues in the past.

Kowani wrote:

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Um.......

Imperial Russia was stable for the majority of its existence, but I doubt most people would want to live there.

Either that or present-day Syria.....which, now that I remember watching YouTube videos on, wouldn't be so bad depending on which area you go to.

Kowani wrote:

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Um.......

Imperial Russia was stable for the majority of its existence, but I doubt most people would want to live there.

it turned out to be a better system than communist Russia

in fact, had the Bolsheviks not won, Russia could have surpassed the USA by today as the world's most powerful nation