NationStates

Great Minarchistan wrote:

Bear Stearns wrote:
Hong Kong's work hours aren't any different than banking hours in New York or London.

Much lower depending on the branch, I'd say

I meant investment banking hours. You're looking at easily 95+ hour weeks.

Nea Byzantia wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:
very very basic English perhaps

but no, most of the people here are not good enough with their English to work in an English speaking country

if that were the case, I for one would not be hired at all to teach it

...

Also, economic and social conservatism will keep the majority of the people here from moving

moving and relocating from country to country is a HUGE HASSLE, I've had the misfortune to have do that many times and each and every time there were plenty of obstacles

I think dealing with symbolic (for now symbolic) oppression from China is a better alternative for most

At most for now, you don't elect the COMPLETE government and they may or may not go through the CE to extradite some people; that's not an unacceptable state of affairs considering even if you could elect the entire government, you'd still be electing from the same pool of the super rich with the same narrow interests

Just to play Devil's Advocate, here. Is it possible that China integrating Hong Kong - a city that historically has belonged to China - won't be as bad as all the doomsayers claim. I'm not defending Beijing as a whole, I know they have a lot of blood on their hands; but Hong Kong is Chinese, and thus should be part of China. Perhaps they can even have an impact on China's internal politics in a positive manner? Whatever you think about Beijing, China certainly has more of a right to Hong Kong than Britain ever did.

It doesn't work that way. China's government changes the people, not the opposite. They have no power to change the government. As for the benefits, China benefits more and the citizens of HK will suffer. Generally speaking, China wants to to kick the US out of the region, which is why they try to influence foreign countries like HK, Taiwan, North Korea and Vietnam. This is what the world looks like without the so-called "American imperialist".

As for who owns what, don't forget that nations and borders are imaginary concepts. If X group of people don't want to identify as Chinese, they are not Chinese. A well-known example are descendants of Italian immigrants who were born in America but identify as American and have no real connection to Italy. Similarly, people of HK are not part of China. But their children and grandchildren may be if the Chinese government changes their mind.

Infected Mushroom wrote:

Duhon wrote:
"Panem. Circenses. Thanatos."

I mean... I (personally) don't get it

without any work-life balance any money you make beyond a certain point becomes moot (and work-life is not a thing with cantonese culture, you have to work for a more western organization to really get that)

in many sectors, this place now has work hours comparable to Japan...

and the mindless obsession with creating more children and subjugating them to the same hyper-competitive academic culture; its like no one ever pauses to think whether or not this place is too awful for these kids...

Well that last part is not really a thing. Hong Kong has and absurdly low birth rate. One of the lowest in the world.
Hong Kongers are not having many children.
Without mainlanders come in Hong Kong would die out quickly.

Great Minarchistan wrote:

Bear Stearns wrote:
Hong Kong's work hours aren't any different than banking hours in New York or London.

Much lower depending on the branch, I'd say

You guys are kidding, right? Hong Kong is almost universally recognized as the place with the longest working hours on the planet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_t ... ong,_China

The numbers there are from a 2012 study by UBS but I doubt things have changed. Interestingly, Cairo, Mumbai, Bangkok, and Mexico City scored higher than Hong Kong in that study.

Nea Byzantia wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:
very very basic English perhaps

but no, most of the people here are not good enough with their English to work in an English speaking country

if that were the case, I for one would not be hired at all to teach it

...

Also, economic and social conservatism will keep the majority of the people here from moving

moving and relocating from country to country is a HUGE HASSLE, I've had the misfortune to have do that many times and each and every time there were plenty of obstacles

I think dealing with symbolic (for now symbolic) oppression from China is a better alternative for most

At most for now, you don't elect the COMPLETE government and they may or may not go through the CE to extradite some people; that's not an unacceptable state of affairs considering even if you could elect the entire government, you'd still be electing from the same pool of the super rich with the same narrow interests

Just to play Devil's Advocate, here. Is it possible that China integrating Hong Kong - a city that historically has belonged to China - won't be as bad as all the doomsayers claim. I'm not defending Beijing as a whole, I know they have a lot of blood on their hands; but Hong Kong is Chinese, and thus should be part of China. Perhaps they can even have an impact on China's internal politics in a positive manner? Whatever you think about Beijing, China certainly has more of a right to Hong Kong than Britain ever did.

Because it is all about power for the PRC. Power for the sake of power.
Destroying Hong Kong’s autonomy means more power for Beijing.

As much as it would be awesome if the PRC became like Hong Kong, instead of Hong Kong becoming like the PRC, the power is all In Beijing’s hands.

Bear Stearns wrote:

Great Minarchistan wrote:Much lower depending on the branch, I'd say

I meant investment banking hours. You're looking at easily 95+ hour weeks.

Avg HK worktime as per the PWT is 2100-2200hrs/yr, IB (and other branches like corporate law) is probably foreseeing something around 3800-4000 hours at analyst level

Farnhamia wrote:

Great Minarchistan wrote:Much lower depending on the branch, I'd say

You guys are kidding, right? Hong Kong is almost universally recognized as the place with the longest working hours on the planet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_t ... ong,_China

The numbers there are from a 2012 study by UBS but I doubt things have changed. Interestingly, Cairo, Mumbai, Bangkok, and Mexico City scored higher than Hong Kong in that study.

Personal history shows honk Kong folk work a lot, the Cantonese not so much.

Infected Mushroom wrote:

Bombadil wrote:Just as an update..

Hospital authorities told broadcaster RTHK that 72 people had been taken to hospital and two were in a serious condition. Pictures and videos on social media appeared to show people wounded by rubber bullets or bean-bag rounds, which police fired from shotguns.

However it seems the crowd has dissipated, the area is somewhat closed off.. kind of a pain in that Admiralty is quite a transport hub and no trains are stopping there for the moment.

I don't think anyone has any idea what happens next.

Okay.

I'm glad its over.

No one was killed. And order was restored. Good job Hong Kong police.

(sigh of relief)

And you don't give a shit that about 72 demonstrators have been wounded by rubber bullets and bean bag rounds. That really doesn't surprise me.

Farnhamia wrote:You guys are kidding, right? Hong Kong is almost universally recognized as the place with the longest working hours on the planet.

"Universally recognized" doesn't translate into what the numbers really tell, and in which case Hong Kong ranks 9th-10th in worktime for employees, which still sits at a somewhat comfortable level. But yeah, as you said, Mexico (which doesn't take a third of the attention for overwork compared to what HK gets) has a higher avg worktime.

Farnhamia wrote:

Great Minarchistan wrote:Much lower depending on the branch, I'd say

You guys are kidding, right? Hong Kong is almost universally recognized as the place with the longest working hours on the planet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_t ... ong,_China

The numbers there are from a 2012 study by UBS but I doubt things have changed. Interestingly, Cairo, Mumbai, Bangkok, and Mexico City scored higher than Hong Kong in that study.

I don't think you know what banking hours are. I was saying all of Hong Kong is comparable to banking hours in New York and London.

Nea Byzantia wrote:Just to play Devil's Advocate, here. Is it possible that China integrating Hong Kong - a city that historically has belonged to China - won't be as bad as all the doomsayers claim. I'm not defending Beijing as a whole, I know they have a lot of blood on their hands; but Hong Kong is Chinese, and thus should be part of China. Perhaps they can even have an impact on China's internal politics in a positive manner? Whatever you think about Beijing, China certainly has more of a right to Hong Kong than Britain ever did.

China won't be changed by Hong Kong, but Hong Kong will definitely be changed by China. And what even is "China"? Hong Kong may as well reunite with the RoC. Hong Kongers don't even speak the same language as the Mainland, and I think there are some major cultural differences as well.

-Ocelot- wrote:
It doesn't work that way. China's government changes the people, not the opposite. They have no power to change the government. As for the benefits, China benefits more and the citizens of HK will suffer. Generally speaking, China wants to to kick the US out of the region, which is why they try to influence foreign countries like HK, Taiwan, North Korea and Vietnam. This is what the world looks like without the so-called "American imperialist".

As if the United States has never done anything comparable. How did America acquire Texas or the entire Southwest from Mexico? What about their lovely little venture in the Philippines or Panama? China is simply emulating the American Example, and they're doing it much closer to home than the Americans did. I'm not saying any of this to defend Beijing's actions - Imperialism is always an evil - but I think people should stop acting as though America is somehow the "Good Guy" in this situation. America is guilty of exactly the same sort of naked Imperialism as China. I'm not in favour of Imperialism, but that doesn't mean I'm going to pretend like its not an unfortunately common phenomenon in Geopolitics and International Relations. What this really boils down to - when you look at the bigger picture - is another theatre of confrontation between Beijing and Washington. America could not care less about Hong Kong or its Sovereignty and Freedom; all it cares about is thwarting China. It will be interesting to see what the Americans do, as the situation progresses.

As for who owns what, don't forget that nations and borders are imaginary concepts. If X group of people don't want to identify as Chinese, they are not Chinese. A well-known example are descendants of Italian immigrants who were born in America but identify as American and have no real connection to Italy. Similarly, people of HK are not part of China. But their children and grandchildren may be if the Chinese government changes their mind.

Doesn't matter if those descendants of Italian immigrants identify as Americans, they're still Italian - by blood, if by nothing else. You can't change who you are just because you live in another country or have become assimilated to another culture. The poltical borders of nation-states are transient, yes, but when it comes to a Nation as an Ethnos, or a distinct People, no those are not transient.

Bear Stearns wrote:

Farnhamia wrote:You guys are kidding, right? Hong Kong is almost universally recognized as the place with the longest working hours on the planet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_t ... ong,_China

The numbers there are from a 2012 study by UBS but I doubt things have changed. Interestingly, Cairo, Mumbai, Bangkok, and Mexico City scored higher than Hong Kong in that study.

I don't think you know what banking hours are. I was saying all of Hong Kong is comparable to banking hours in New York and London.

Well, "banker's hours" to me means starting at 9:00 and going home at 3:00. Obviously that's not what you meant. You know, people have to tell me when the meaning of things change. Really. And stay off my lawn, too, by the way.

Farnhamia wrote:

Bear Stearns wrote:
I don't think you know what banking hours are. I was saying all of Hong Kong is comparable to banking hours in New York and London.

Well, "banker's hours" to me means starting at 9:00 and going home at 3:00. Obviously that's not what you meant. You know, people have to tell me when the meaning of things change. Really. And stay off my lawn, too, by the way.

that 3:00 is AM right

Nea Byzantia wrote:

-Ocelot- wrote:
It doesn't work that way. China's government changes the people, not the opposite. They have no power to change the government. As for the benefits, China benefits more and the citizens of HK will suffer. Generally speaking, China wants to to kick the US out of the region, which is why they try to influence foreign countries like HK, Taiwan, North Korea and Vietnam. This is what the world looks like without the so-called "American imperialist".

As if the United States has never done anything comparable. How did America acquire Texas or the entire Southwest from Mexico? What about their lovely little venture in the Philippines or Panama? China is simply emulating the American Example, and they're doing it much closer to home than the Americans did. I'm not saying any of this to defend Beijing's actions - Imperialism is always an evil - but I think people should stop acting as though America is somehow the "Good Guy" in this situation. America is guilty of exactly the same sort of naked Imperialism as China. I'm not in favour of Imperialism, but that doesn't mean I'm going to pretend like its not an unfortunately common phenomenon in Geopolitics and International Relations. What this really boils down to - when you look at the bigger picture - is another theatre of confrontation between Beijing and Washington. America could not care less about Hong Kong or its Sovereignty and Freedom; all it cares about is thwarting China. It will be interesting to see what the Americans do, as the situation progresses.

As for who owns what, don't forget that nations and borders are imaginary concepts. If X group of people don't want to identify as Chinese, they are not Chinese. A well-known example are descendants of Italian immigrants who were born in America but identify as American and have no real connection to Italy. Similarly, people of HK are not part of China. But their children and grandchildren may be if the Chinese government changes their mind.

Doesn't matter if those descendants of Italian immigrants identify as Americans, they're still Italian - by blood, if by nothing else. You can't change who you are just because you live in another country or have become assimilated to another culture. The poltical borders of nation-states are transient, yes, but when it comes to a Nation as an Ethnos, or a distinct People, no those are not transient.

Nationalities are imaginary concepts we've agreed to believe. There is no Italian gene/blood, just like there is no "People's Republic of China" gene. Έθνος or nation is a construct, not something natural. The concept of "distinct people" is also imaginary and the proof is always a DNA test away.

Personal example: I'm Greek. We believe in the "Greek ethnos". Yet all Greeks are mixed. In my country there are people who are to a great degree slavic while others aren't slavic at all. Some have blue eyes, most have brown eyes. Some Greeks are naturally brown, others are pale white. Are we supposed to believe we are "distinct people"? Same goes for the Chinese. Do you actually believe 1,4B Chinese have the exact same "blood" (whatever that means)? Why should the citizens of HK be "Chinese" or part of China if they don't want to?

-Ocelot- wrote:

Nea Byzantia wrote:
As if the United States has never done anything comparable. How did America acquire Texas or the entire Southwest from Mexico? What about their lovely little venture in the Philippines or Panama? China is simply emulating the American Example, and they're doing it much closer to home than the Americans did. I'm not saying any of this to defend Beijing's actions - Imperialism is always an evil - but I think people should stop acting as though America is somehow the "Good Guy" in this situation. America is guilty of exactly the same sort of naked Imperialism as China. I'm not in favour of Imperialism, but that doesn't mean I'm going to pretend like its not an unfortunately common phenomenon in Geopolitics and International Relations. What this really boils down to - when you look at the bigger picture - is another theatre of confrontation between Beijing and Washington. America could not care less about Hong Kong or its Sovereignty and Freedom; all it cares about is thwarting China. It will be interesting to see what the Americans do, as the situation progresses.



Doesn't matter if those descendants of Italian immigrants identify as Americans, they're still Italian - by blood, if by nothing else. You can't change who you are just because you live in another country or have become assimilated to another culture. The poltical borders of nation-states are transient, yes, but when it comes to a Nation as an Ethnos, or a distinct People, no those are not transient.

Nationalities are imaginary concepts we've agreed to believe. There is no Italian gene/blood, just like there is no "People's Republic of China" gene. Έθνος or nation is a construct, not something natural. The concept of "distinct people" is also imaginary and the proof is always a DNA test away.

Personal example: I'm Greek. We believe in the "Greek ethnos". Yet all Greeks are mixed. In my country there are people who are to a great degree slavic while others aren't slavic at all. Some have blue eyes, most have brown eyes. Some Greeks are naturally brown, others are pale white. Are we supposed to believe we are "distinct people"? Same goes for the Chinese. Do you actually believe 1,4B Chinese have the exact same "blood" (whatever that means)? Why should the citizens of HK be "Chinese" or part of China if they don't want to?

Cool. I'm Greek too. I agree, identity is somewhat fractal. Ethnicity is more than just blood, its also culture, customs, religion, language and an assortment of other things. I'm not denying that Hong Kong has cultural differences from northern China, but they have mostly the same culture and religion. The primary differences are historical and political.

Nea Byzantia wrote:

-Ocelot- wrote:
Nationalities are imaginary concepts we've agreed to believe. There is no Italian gene/blood, just like there is no "People's Republic of China" gene. Έθνος or nation is a construct, not something natural. The concept of "distinct people" is also imaginary and the proof is always a DNA test away.

Personal example: I'm Greek. We believe in the "Greek ethnos". Yet all Greeks are mixed. In my country there are people who are to a great degree slavic while others aren't slavic at all. Some have blue eyes, most have brown eyes. Some Greeks are naturally brown, others are pale white. Are we supposed to believe we are "distinct people"? Same goes for the Chinese. Do you actually believe 1,4B Chinese have the exact same "blood" (whatever that means)? Why should the citizens of HK be "Chinese" or part of China if they don't want to?

Cool. I'm Greek too. And ethnicity is more than just blood, its also culture, customs, religion, language and an assortment of other things. I'm not denying that Hong Kong has cultural differences from northern China, but they have mostly the same culture and religion. The primary differences are historical and political.

Exactly, and nations have fought bloody wars over small differences between culture and religion.

-Ocelot- wrote:

Nea Byzantia wrote:Cool. I'm Greek too. And ethnicity is more than just blood, its also culture, customs, religion, language and an assortment of other things. I'm not denying that Hong Kong has cultural differences from northern China, but they have mostly the same culture and religion. The primary differences are historical and political.

Exactly, and nations have fought bloody wars over small differences between culture and religion.

Small as those differences may be, they still are a difference. Its not ideal, but it is what it is.

Farnhamia wrote:

Bear Stearns wrote:
I don't think you know what banking hours are. I was saying all of Hong Kong is comparable to banking hours in New York and London.

Well, "banker's hours" to me means starting at 9:00 and going home at 3:00. Obviously that's not what you meant. You know, people have to tell me when the meaning of things change. Really. And stay off my lawn, too, by the way.

A banker's 9-5 means 9:00 am to 5:00 am lol

Farnhamia wrote:

Bear Stearns wrote:
I don't think you know what banking hours are. I was saying all of Hong Kong is comparable to banking hours in New York and London.

Well, "banker's hours" to me means starting at 9:00 and going home at 3:00. Obviously that's not what you meant. You know, people have to tell me when the meaning of things change. Really. And stay off my lawn, too, by the way.

HK isn't really a 'morning person' city.. banks open at 10am and close at 4pm. In fact a lot of shops might not even open until 11am. When it comes to investment banking though, a lot of people work on Tokyo time so actually they're in at 7am.

Having said that people do stay late at work though I'm not sure it's always for productivity or due to the fact that many people live in small apartments with parents and so work, after bosses have gone, is more a place to chill out with colleagues and eat dinner. There's also a thing whereby if you leave after 8pm the office comps your taxi fare so..

Anyway, in terms of updates..

Still no confirmed time on the second reading of the bill
A protest is approved for Sunday

The whole problem stems from the idiots not making the lease to the UK 10000000 years. Then it could be functionally independent now.

As for the current situation, it's a brave attempt but in reality they won't save Hong Kong. I don't really think there is much to discuss in that regard sadly.

The Nihilistic view wrote:The whole problem stems from the idiots not making the lease to the UK 10000000 years. Then it could be functionally independent now.

As for the current situation, it's a brave attempt but in reality they won't save Hong Kong. I don't really think there is much to discuss in that regard sadly.

Didn't exactly work out for Macao, though.

The New California Republic wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Okay.

I'm glad its over.

No one was killed. And order was restored. Good job Hong Kong police.

(sigh of relief)

And you don't give a shit that about 72 demonstrators have been wounded by rubber bullets and bean bag rounds. That really doesn't surprise me.

It is most unfortunate that they were hurt

However, the protest was reckless and irresponsible

Ayeinc wrote:I wish China would just leave Hong Kong and Macao alone. They have different systems of government and society. I'm pretty sure the citizens of Hong Kong and Macao are not going to give up their freedoms without a fight.

You bet we will!

My parents went to the June 12 protests and the situation is very different than then situation portrayed on the news. My mom actually breathed in tear gas. The police claim that they were using force to disperse violent protestors but 150+ tear gas canisters was simply unjustifiable. My mom was on a bridge looking and then the police just fired a canister of tear gas onto the bridge. It exploded less than 20 meters away from my mom.

Nea Byzantia wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:
very very basic English perhaps

but no, most of the people here are not good enough with their English to work in an English speaking country

if that were the case, I for one would not be hired at all to teach it

...

Also, economic and social conservatism will keep the majority of the people here from moving

moving and relocating from country to country is a HUGE HASSLE, I've had the misfortune to have do that many times and each and every time there were plenty of obstacles

I think dealing with symbolic (for now symbolic) oppression from China is a better alternative for most

At most for now, you don't elect the COMPLETE government and they may or may not go through the CE to extradite some people; that's not an unacceptable state of affairs considering even if you could elect the entire government, you'd still be electing from the same pool of the super rich with the same narrow interests

Just to play Devil's Advocate, here. Is it possible that China integrating Hong Kong - a city that historically has belonged to China - won't be as bad as all the doomsayers claim. I'm not defending Beijing as a whole, I know they have a lot of blood on their hands; but Hong Kong is Chinese, and thus should be part of China. Perhaps they can even have an impact on China's internal politics in a positive manner? Whatever you think about Beijing, China certainly has more of a right to Hong Kong than Britain ever did.

I’d say it won’t be bad because they know HK is a money maker and it’s status as a free trade port with international access is key to that

Hong Kong would likely retain its ability to elect a portion of its government indefinitely