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Hong Kong

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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In retrospect..

The UK was right to handover HK to China
45
19%
The UK should have kept HK
61
26%
The UK should have set up HK as an independent, democratic state
115
49%
Other
14
6%
 
Total votes : 235

User avatar
Duhon
Minister
 
Posts: 2786
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:36 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Duhon wrote:
So tell me of the relative merits of bringing bricks to a gunfight.


Sending a clear message to the regime that the people won't simply roll over and grovel at their command.

Also, martyrdom; inspiring future resistance.


Protests are meant to send that message. Also, if you kill off every last voice in protest, who's left?

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Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10004
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:40 pm

Duhon wrote:
Bombadil wrote:10:23AM
Protesters gather bricks
At Lung Wo Tunnel's east exit, protesters are plucking loose bricks from pavements.


God I have a bad feeling about all this.


Hide. Afterwards, deliberate on the fastest way to leave Hong Kong, and organize accordingly. If you can help a few people of Hong Kong leave along the way, that's a world of good.


I run a business with employees here, it's not so easy to just leave.. and go where? I left the UK when I was 3 and not sure I'd want to return to a post-Brexit country anyway.

New Bremerton wrote:The worsening political situation, as well as severe overcrowding brought on by Mainlanders flooding into Hong Kong thanks to the city-state's open borders policy and eroding its language, culture and cosmopolitan, multicultural identity, are the reasons my family moved back to Malaysia. My childhood home of nearly 30 years: Sold. Fuck you Beijing. By the way, if any of you guys use WeChat, uninstall it now. I'm pleasantly surprised that HK people are still fighting for their freedom even now. There is a small but not insignificant independence movement and a growing nostalgia for British rule as well as a sense of betrayal at Britain's withdrawal.


The extent to which people live on WeChat, on my last visit to Shanghai you really can't buy anything with cash anymore - the coffee shop where I tried simply said they don't have money in the till. So pretty much everything you do is recorded. It actually feels oppressive.

China is a good example of the dangers where we freely give up all our data.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

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Trollzyn the Infinite
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1156
Founded: Aug 22, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:44 pm

Duhon wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Sending a clear message to the regime that the people won't simply roll over and grovel at their command.

Also, martyrdom; inspiring future resistance.


Protests are meant to send that message. Also, if you kill off every last voice in protest, who's left?


To reiterate: you cannot protest against these kinds of regime and expect anything to happen.

Who said anything about killing all the protesters? That's statistically unlikely the more people are in attendance. Besides that, people don't like watching their neighbors, friends, family, and co-workers being murdered by police on orders from the state.
Eodor wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Do you want Crusades? Because this is how you get Crusades.

Trazyn the Infinite encourages Imperial forces to embark on the Indomitus Crusade after the Fall of Cadia. Circa. M42
Proctopeo wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Come back when the French aren't protesting about something. That's real news.

"President Macron, the peasants are revolting!"
"I'm well aware of that, they don't even bathe. Servant, bring me more wine."
The South Falls wrote:
Kannap wrote:This look isn't cute on you.

He's funding my salt mine.

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Posts: 1156
Founded: Aug 22, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:46 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Duhon wrote:
Hide. Afterwards, deliberate on the fastest way to leave Hong Kong, and organize accordingly. If you can help a few people of Hong Kong leave along the way, that's a world of good.


I run a business with employees here, it's not so easy to just leave.. and go where? I left the UK when I was 3 and not sure I'd want to return to a post-Brexit country anyway.


Fucking lmao

I don't know about you, but I'd take a struggling economy over a corporate police state any day.
Eodor wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Do you want Crusades? Because this is how you get Crusades.

Trazyn the Infinite encourages Imperial forces to embark on the Indomitus Crusade after the Fall of Cadia. Circa. M42
Proctopeo wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Come back when the French aren't protesting about something. That's real news.

"President Macron, the peasants are revolting!"
"I'm well aware of that, they don't even bathe. Servant, bring me more wine."
The South Falls wrote:
Kannap wrote:This look isn't cute on you.

He's funding my salt mine.

User avatar
Nova Cyberia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1521
Founded: May 06, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nova Cyberia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:47 pm

Goddammit, China. 1984 was a warning, not an instruction manual.
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.

User avatar
Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10004
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:50 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
I run a business with employees here, it's not so easy to just leave.. and go where? I left the UK when I was 3 and not sure I'd want to return to a post-Brexit country anyway.


Fucking lmao

I don't know about you, but I'd take a struggling economy over a corporate police state any day.


HK is not yet a corporate police state.. it's among the most competitive economies in the world. I can work during the week and windsurf all weekend. As a place to live and work it has a lot going for it.. for now.

Still the choice isn't just HK/UK.. so it's more that I don't care to live in the UK much as opposed to a choice between the two.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

User avatar
Duhon
Minister
 
Posts: 2786
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:51 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
I run a business with employees here, it's not so easy to just leave.. and go where? I left the UK when I was 3 and not sure I'd want to return to a post-Brexit country anyway.


Fucking lmao

I don't know about you, but I'd take a struggling economy over a corporate police state any day.


Or since Taiwan is nearby, go there! Not much dislocation involved!

User avatar
Heloin
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5002
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:54 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Duhon wrote:
Hide. Afterwards, deliberate on the fastest way to leave Hong Kong, and organize accordingly. If you can help a few people of Hong Kong leave along the way, that's a world of good.


I run a business with employees here, it's not so easy to just leave.. and go where? I left the UK when I was 3 and not sure I'd want to return to a post-Brexit country anyway.

New Bremerton wrote:The worsening political situation, as well as severe overcrowding brought on by Mainlanders flooding into Hong Kong thanks to the city-state's open borders policy and eroding its language, culture and cosmopolitan, multicultural identity, are the reasons my family moved back to Malaysia. My childhood home of nearly 30 years: Sold. Fuck you Beijing. By the way, if any of you guys use WeChat, uninstall it now. I'm pleasantly surprised that HK people are still fighting for their freedom even now. There is a small but not insignificant independence movement and a growing nostalgia for British rule as well as a sense of betrayal at Britain's withdrawal.


The extent to which people live on WeChat, on my last visit to Shanghai you really can't buy anything with cash anymore - the coffee shop where I tried simply said they don't have money in the till. So pretty much everything you do is recorded. It actually feels oppressive.

China is a good example of the dangers where we freely give up all our data.

Dictatorships rarely have optimal times to leave. The earlier on the greater options for where to go and who and what you can take, but that's the same time when things can stabilise politically. Leaving later on you may not even really have a choice on were you're going, just a plane ticket out, but that's often when you can't stay anymore. Really it's up to how you think the coming days, weeks, months, and years will go for HK.

China unironically looked at all the dystopian fiction written in the west and said. "Yeah, sounds good."
An Africa Free From Hate
I would not worship a God who is homophobic and that is how deeply I feel about this - Desmond Tutu

My Names Jennifer, a 20 something Rabbit and Rhodie Girl. Proudly Zimbabwean, and currently a Floridian too. TET Disc Jockey.
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Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8754
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:02 pm

"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
Filipino||Catholic Liberationist||Leftist||He/Him||Bisexual||Trans Rights
Rojava||Free Taiwan||Assyria||Zapatistas
Puppet: Nangka

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Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10004
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:15 pm



Yeah, this was rumoured an hour or so ago.. I'm not sure what the effect is. It's not like the protests will just disappear and they'll have to run the reading at some point when it will all kick off regardless.

Either they simply withdraw the bill, which runs the risk of creating future issues for the government. Or they move to another day and protests will continue.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

User avatar
Nakena
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1562
Founded: May 06, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:31 pm

UK should have given Hong Kong back to the Republic of China. That would have been splendid.

Or maybe just kept it.
Last edited by Nakena on Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10004
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:38 pm

Nakena wrote:UK should have given Hong Kong back to the Republic of China. That would have been splendid.

Or maybe just kept it.


The third would have been to grant Hong Kong independence having set up a democratic system of government.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

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Nakena
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1562
Founded: May 06, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:39 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Nakena wrote:UK should have given Hong Kong back to the Republic of China. That would have been splendid.

Or maybe just kept it.


The third would have been to grant Hong Kong independence having set up a democratic system of government.


Please elaborate.

User avatar
Heloin
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5002
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:39 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Nakena wrote:UK should have given Hong Kong back to the Republic of China. That would have been splendid.

Or maybe just kept it.


The third would have been to grant Hong Kong independence having set up a democratic system of government.

Free City of Hong Kong ftw.
An Africa Free From Hate
I would not worship a God who is homophobic and that is how deeply I feel about this - Desmond Tutu

My Names Jennifer, a 20 something Rabbit and Rhodie Girl. Proudly Zimbabwean, and currently a Floridian too. TET Disc Jockey.
I love Rugby. Go Springboks, Go Sables! I draw things and make pixel stuff. And now maps! Take a look!

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8754
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:45 pm

Nakena wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
The third would have been to grant Hong Kong independence having set up a democratic system of government.


Please elaborate.

City-state of Hong Kong, much like Singapore.

Alternatively, the people of Hong Kong should have been given the freedom to choose what their future would be. Neither Westminster nor Beijing afforded them that choice. Thatcher failed Hong Kong as much as Beijing is failing them now.
"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
Filipino||Catholic Liberationist||Leftist||He/Him||Bisexual||Trans Rights
Rojava||Free Taiwan||Assyria||Zapatistas
Puppet: Nangka

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Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10004
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:45 pm

Nakena wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
The third would have been to grant Hong Kong independence having set up a democratic system of government.


Please elaborate.


I mean Singapore was originally part of Malaysia until it was expelled in '65. It functions perfectly well as an independent city state. If the UK had set up HK as an independent and democratic state in the 60's for example, I think it could be functioning well as an independent city state as well.

Obviously by the 80's it would have been impossible as China would never accept it. Yet, similar to Taiwan, it might not necessarily take the step of invading HK if it had been established as independent earlier.

Quite honestly I'd be ok with the Cantonese speaking population of southern China seceding but that will never happen.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

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Nova Cyberia
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Posts: 1521
Founded: May 06, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nova Cyberia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:47 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Please elaborate.


I mean Singapore was originally part of Malaysia until it was expelled in '65. It functions perfectly well as an independent city state. If the UK had set up HK as an independent and democratic state in the 60's for example, I think it could be functioning well as an independent city state as well.

Obviously by the 80's it would have been impossible as China would never accept it. Yet, similar to Taiwan, it might not necessarily take the step of invading HK if it had been established as independent earlier.

Quite honestly I'd be ok with the Cantonese speaking population of southern China seceding but that will never happen.

Fun fact: Singapore is the only country in the world to gain independence by being kicked out of another country.
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.

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New Bremerton
Envoy
 
Posts: 291
Founded: Jul 20, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New Bremerton » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:49 pm

Duhon wrote:
Bombadil wrote:10:23AM
Protesters gather bricks
At Lung Wo Tunnel's east exit, protesters are plucking loose bricks from pavements.


God I have a bad feeling about all this.


Hide. Afterwards, deliberate on the fastest way to leave Hong Kong, and organize accordingly. If you can help a few people of Hong Kong leave along the way, that's a world of good.


HK people are more than welcome to immigrate en masse to Malaysia in order to weaken the Malay supremacist and Islamist lobby here and defend its multicultural identity and respect for minorities. They're very hardworking and they cook the world's best food ever.

Bombadil wrote:I run a business with employees here, it's not so easy to just leave.. and go where? I left the UK when I was 3 and not sure I'd want to return to a post-Brexit country anyway.


I was born in Hong Kong and only repatriated to Malaysia as an adult, so I know exactly what you mean. There is no birthright citizenship in Hong Kong. I would take Britain over Malaysia any day of the week, even if the Tube sucks and Londoners are rude. I thought the UK was backward compared to HK when I was there, but Malaysia is leaps and bounds worse, and I can never get used to it even after so many years. As the saying goes, "You don't know what you've got till it's gone", and I learned that the hard way, and HK people who unlike either of us really have no other place to go are learning it too.

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Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8754
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:50 pm

Bombadil wrote:Quite honestly I'd be ok with the Cantonese speaking population of southern China seceding but that will never happen.

I too love unironically dreaming of a more Balkanized mainland. But even if just Hong Kong and Taiwan got their independence I'd be 10x happier.
"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
Filipino||Catholic Liberationist||Leftist||He/Him||Bisexual||Trans Rights
Rojava||Free Taiwan||Assyria||Zapatistas
Puppet: Nangka

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Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25098
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:52 pm

As someone who lives in Hong Kong, I don’t want any trouble.

That’s my priority.

If you ask me, then I consider any protests at this point to be highly irresponsible and reckless. I’m not interested in seeing a military crackdown here because some idealists start some demonstrations.

Having seen the mockery that is democracy in countries like the USA, I can safely say it’s not worth dying for (it’s more ugly than beautiful). And it would be a shame if this led to actual bloodshed and economic disruption.
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Nova Cyberia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1521
Founded: May 06, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nova Cyberia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:55 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:As someone who lives in Hong Kong, I don’t want any trouble.

That’s my priority.

If you ask me, then I consider any protests at this point to be highly irresponsible and reckless. I’m not interested in seeing a military crackdown here because some idealists start some demonstrations.

Having seen the mockery that is democracy in countries like the USA, I can safely say it’s not worth dying for (it’s more ugly than beautiful). And it would be a shame if this led to actual bloodshed and economic disruption.

You'd rather live in a totalitarian country like China than a democracy like the USA?

*chuckles*

Okay, fam. Move to China. If you find a way around the internet censorship and can log on to NS, let us all know how it is.
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.

User avatar
Bombadil
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10004
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:56 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:As someone who lives in Hong Kong, I don’t want any trouble.

That’s my priority.

If you ask me, then I consider any protests at this point to be highly irresponsible and reckless. I’m not interested in seeing a military crackdown here because some idealists start some demonstrations.

Having seen the mockery that is democracy in countries like the USA, I can safely say it’s not worth dying for (it’s more ugly than beautiful). And it would be a shame if this led to actual bloodshed and economic disruption.

You'd rather live in a totalitarian country like China than a democracy like the USA?

*chuckles*

Okay, fam. Move to China. If you find a way around the internet censorship and can log on to NS, let us all know how it is.


NS is not blocked in China, at least not the last time I was there a couple months ago.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

User avatar
Duhon
Minister
 
Posts: 2786
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:56 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:As someone who lives in Hong Kong, I don’t want any trouble.

That’s my priority.

If you ask me, then I consider any protests at this point to be highly irresponsible and reckless. I’m not interested in seeing a military crackdown here because some idealists start some demonstrations.

Having seen the mockery that is democracy in countries like the USA, I can safely say it’s not worth dying for (it’s more ugly than beautiful). And it would be a shame if this led to actual bloodshed and economic disruption.


You don't want any trouble for the trouble has not come for your neck.

Yet.

User avatar
Nova Cyberia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1521
Founded: May 06, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nova Cyberia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:58 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:You'd rather live in a totalitarian country like China than a democracy like the USA?

*chuckles*

Okay, fam. Move to China. If you find a way around the internet censorship and can log on to NS, let us all know how it is.


NS is not blocked in China, at least not the last time I was there a couple months ago.

It's not?

That's surprising, tbh.
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.

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Nakena
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1562
Founded: May 06, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:58 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:As someone who lives in Hong Kong, I don’t want any trouble.

That’s my priority.

If you ask me, then I consider any protests at this point to be highly irresponsible and reckless. I’m not interested in seeing a military crackdown here because some idealists start some demonstrations.

Having seen the mockery that is democracy in countries like the USA, I can safely say it’s not worth dying for (it’s more ugly than beautiful). And it would be a shame if this led to actual bloodshed and economic disruption.


Well it means the PRC will come after you just a little later. You can only so long hide out from totalitarian systems.

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