Hong Kong

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Lol.

Did I say something funny?

The idea that the noveau billionaires haven't replaced the old aristocracy, repudiated all national responsibility, granted themselves effective tax exemption and commands their own hordes of serfs is funny yes.

[Purgatio]

The rule of law, which is being undermined by the rampant protests and riots going on in HK (I'm gonna try and keep linking my replies back to the main point of the thread to avoid a threadjack here)

Yes, but without the state the rule of law isn't enforced. Also, to tie back to the protests, despite how much I've supporting the state here, all that rests on the assumption that the state is democratic, which it isn't in HK. That's why it's well within the protesters freedoms to do this, the govt. isn't giving them the freedoms they're due. For such a die hard lover of freedom, you seem pretty happy to see it quashed

We have a very different conception of freedom I think, I believe in the right to individual autonomy, that means property rights, rights of ownership, freedom of contract and bodily integrity. The HK Rioters undermine those rights every single day when they smash windows, hurl rocks at buildings, glass bottles and Molotov cocktails into the open air at the general public, when they block public highways or obstruct MTR stations and so block people from getting to work. To me, the violence of the HK Rioters is the real enemy of individual liberty here.

[Bombadil]

The rule of law, which is being undermined by the rampant protests and riots going on in HK (I'm gonna try and keep linking my replies back to the main point of the thread to avoid a threadjack here)

Yes, but without the state the rule of law isn't enforced. Also, to tie back to the protests, despite how much I've supporting the state here, all that rests on the assumption that the state is democratic, which it isn't in HK. That's why it's well within the protesters freedoms to do this, the govt. isn't giving them the freedoms they're due. For such a die hard lover of freedom, you seem pretty happy to see it quashed

Exactly, given the government is so thoroughly committed to not listening to the general public there's few avenues left. It's unfortunate but necessary. It's a testament to the people of HK that, this time, they won't back down and further that they've maintained it for so long.

[Novus America]

He does not care about the interests of the common man, just his family’s stock portfolio though.

I care about everyone's stock portfolio and family estate, actually. I want everyone's portfolio and estate to do well. Is that so wrong?

Apparently you do not, because you want many to have a small estate or none at all.
Land is a limited resource, and you want it in the hands of just a few.

And really do you? If your stock goes up and someone else’s go down do you care?
And life is not all about stocks either.

There is more to life than the accumulation of material wealth.

[Purgatio]

Yes, but without the state the rule of law isn't enforced. Also, to tie back to the protests, despite how much I've supporting the state here, all that rests on the assumption that the state is democratic, which it isn't in HK. That's why it's well within the protesters freedoms to do this, the govt. isn't giving them the freedoms they're due. For such a die hard lover of freedom, you seem pretty happy to see it quashed

Exactly, given the government is so thoroughly committed to not listening to the general public there's few avenues left. It's unfortunate but necessary. It's a testament to the people of HK that, this time, they won't back down and further that they've maintained it for so long.

Or a testament to their stubbornness and selfish lack of respect for either the rule of law or the rights of other people to not be harassed or have to fear bodily injury every time they leave their house.

[Telconi]

I care about everyone's stock portfolio and family estate, actually. I want everyone's portfolio and estate to do well. Is that so wrong?

Apparently you do not, because you want many to have a small estate or none at all.
Land is a limited resource, and you want it in the hands of just a few.

And really do you? If your stock goes up and someone else’s go down do you care?
And life is not all about stocks either.

There is more to life than the accumulation of material wealth.

I think the meaning of life might be beyond the scope of this thread my friend.

[Novus America]

Yes, but without the state the rule of law isn't enforced. Also, to tie back to the protests, despite how much I've supporting the state here, all that rests on the assumption that the state is democratic, which it isn't in HK. That's why it's well within the protesters freedoms to do this, the govt. isn't giving them the freedoms they're due. For such a die hard lover of freedom, you seem pretty happy to see it quashed

We have a very different conception of freedom I think, I believe in the right to individual autonomy, that means property rights, rights of ownership, freedom of contract and bodily integrity. The HK Rioters undermine those rights every single day when they smash windows, hurl rocks at buildings, glass bottles and Molotov cocktails into the open air at the general public, when they block public highways or obstruct MTR stations and so block people from getting to work. To me, the violence of the HK Rioters is the real enemy of individual liberty here.

The right to bodily integrity would mean police brutality is bad. Brutal dictatorships who torture their people and sell their organs bad.

[Purgatio]

I care about everyone's stock portfolio and family estate, actually. I want everyone's portfolio and estate to do well. Is that so wrong?

Apparently you do not, because you want many to have a small estate or none at all.
Land is a limited resource, and you want it in the hands of just a few.

And really do you? If your stock goes up and someone else’s go down do you care?
And life is not all about stocks either.

There is more to life than the accumulation of material wealth.

It sounds diminishing when you say "life is not about stocks", but it's more than that, its about the stability and security and safety net that the portfolio brings with it. The portfolio comes with a steady stream of dividends and return on investments every quarter, which can be used to live on in case one gets sick or can't work anymore or your job doesn't pay enough to live a nice and comfortable lifestyle. That's a huge weight of my shoulder and my brother and whoever else may come after us when I grow up. That's what matters more, not the portfolio itself, but what it provides and gives to the family.

[Purgatio]

We have a very different conception of freedom I think, I believe in the right to individual autonomy, that means property rights, rights of ownership, freedom of contract and bodily integrity. The HK Rioters undermine those rights every single day when they smash windows, hurl rocks at buildings, glass bottles and Molotov cocktails into the open air at the general public, when they block public highways or obstruct MTR stations and so block people from getting to work. To me, the violence of the HK Rioters is the real enemy of individual liberty here.

The right to bodily integrity would mean police brutality is bad. Brutal dictatorships who torture their people and sell their organs bad.

But whatever brutality they commit is committed in a state of lawlessness and anarchy that the rioters themselves fostered. When the rule of law dies, organs of the State resort to violence to restore peace and stability. Its unfortunate, I wish it weren't so, and in a perfect world there would be no police brutality. But there would be none if the rioters didn't riot in the first place, simple as that.

[Novus America]

Police brutality is not the rule of law. Neither is a regime only accountable to itself like the PRC.

Hong Kong is one of the wealthiest financial hubs in the world, and like I said pretty much every Asian HNWI family has some wealth parked in HK, at least based on personal information I know Citigold Private Client in Singapore invests a lot of their clients' capital in HK too. None of this would be possible if HK were not governed by the rule of law and a stable regime of property rights where business can thrive. Not to mention the functional constituencies and the current make-up of the 1,200-person Election Committee who vote for the Chief Executive help ensure that this remains the case. So yeah, I'd say the rule of law is pretty well respected in Hong Kong, putting aside the police brutality for the moment.

The rule of law does not just mean upholding the status quo.
And does this seem like the rule of law?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causewa ... ppearances

Rule of laws is more than just property rights.
But at least you do not deny their have been breaches of the rules of law.

[Purgatio]

Hong Kong is one of the wealthiest financial hubs in the world, and like I said pretty much every Asian HNWI family has some wealth parked in HK, at least based on personal information I know Citigold Private Client in Singapore invests a lot of their clients' capital in HK too. None of this would be possible if HK were not governed by the rule of law and a stable regime of property rights where business can thrive. Not to mention the functional constituencies and the current make-up of the 1,200-person Election Committee who vote for the Chief Executive help ensure that this remains the case. So yeah, I'd say the rule of law is pretty well respected in Hong Kong, putting aside the police brutality for the moment.

The rule of law does not just mean upholding the status quo.
And does this seem like the rule of law?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causewa ... ppearances

Rule of laws is more than just property rights.
But at least you do not deny their have been breaches of the rules of law.

I'm not a fan of that either, I think freedom of speech is a noble aspiration for any society. But I don't think that justifies rioter brutality and violence.

[Bombadil]

Exactly, given the government is so thoroughly committed to not listening to the general public there's few avenues left. It's unfortunate but necessary. It's a testament to the people of HK that, this time, they won't back down and further that they've maintained it for so long.

Or a testament to their stubbornness and selfish lack of respect for either the rule of law or the rights of other people to not be harassed or have to fear bodily injury every time they leave their house.

A recent poll showed that, overwhelmingly, the only people feared in HK are the police.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

The rule of law does not just mean upholding the status quo.
And does this seem like the rule of law?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causewa ... ppearances

Rule of laws is more than just property rights.
But at least you do not deny their have been breaches of the rules of law.

I'm not a fan of that either, I think freedom of speech is a noble aspiration for any society. But I don't think that justifies rioter brutality and violence.

Sometimes when you deal with an Unrechtstaat À la lanterne is often the only recourse.

[Novus America]

The right to bodily integrity would mean police brutality is bad. Brutal dictatorships who torture their people and sell their organs bad.

But whatever brutality they commit is committed in a state of lawlessness and anarchy that the rioters themselves fostered. When the rule of law dies, organs of the State resort to violence to restore peace and stability. Its unfortunate, I wish it weren't so, and in a perfect world there would be no police brutality. But there would be none if the rioters didn't riot in the first place, simple as that.

This is just pure whataboutism.
Two wrongs do not make a right.

And this is funny, because the PRC is itself killing the rule of law. So you are saying the state can just kill the rule of law and then be justified in committing violence?

Any dictatorship can use this argument to impose any atrocity.

[Purgatio]

Or a testament to their stubbornness and selfish lack of respect for either the rule of law or the rights of other people to not be harassed or have to fear bodily injury every time they leave their house.

A recent poll showed that, overwhelmingly, the only people feared in HK are the police.

Thats sad to hear, but again the police wouldn't be committing these abuses if not for the riots hapening in the first place. If Hong Kong remained the peaceful and orderly society it had been before all this chaos started, everything would be fine and the police wouldn't be hurting anyone.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

The rule of law does not just mean upholding the status quo.
And does this seem like the rule of law?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causewa ... ppearances

Rule of laws is more than just property rights.
But at least you do not deny their have been breaches of the rules of law.

I'm not a fan of that either, I think freedom of speech is a noble aspiration for any society. But I don't think that justifies rioter brutality and violence.

Cause and effect. Lack of freedom in the civil sphere lead to this violence.

[Purgatio]

I'm not a fan of that either, I think freedom of speech is a noble aspiration for any society. But I don't think that justifies rioter brutality and violence.

Sometimes when you deal with an Unrechstaat À la lanterne is often the only recourse.

Your valorisation of mass unbridled violence is actually pretty disconcerting to me, gotta be honest

[Purgatio]

But whatever brutality they commit is committed in a state of lawlessness and anarchy that the rioters themselves fostered. When the rule of law dies, organs of the State resort to violence to restore peace and stability. Its unfortunate, I wish it weren't so, and in a perfect world there would be no police brutality. But there would be none if the rioters didn't riot in the first place, simple as that.

This is just pure whataboutism.
Two wrongs do not make a right.

And this is funny, because the PRC is itself killing the rule of law. So you are saying the state can just kill the rule of law and then be justified in committing violence?

Any dictatorship can use this argument to impose any atrocity.

Its not whataboutism if the police are resorting to brutalities only because they are scared for their lives. Rioters are throwing rocks and glass bottles and Molotov cocktails at them, many have gotten hurt or burnt, of course they scared and a minority may act out because of that fear and panic in them.

[Novus America]

Apparently you do not, because you want many to have a small estate or none at all.
Land is a limited resource, and you want it in the hands of just a few.

And really do you? If your stock goes up and someone else’s go down do you care?
And life is not all about stocks either.

There is more to life than the accumulation of material wealth.

It sounds diminishing when you say "life is not about stocks", but it's more than that, its about the stability and security and safety net that the portfolio brings with it. The portfolio comes with a steady stream of dividends and return on investments every quarter, which can be used to live on in case one gets sick or can't work anymore or your job doesn't pay enough to live a nice and comfortable lifestyle. That's a huge weight of my shoulder and my brother and whoever else may come after us when I grow up. That's what matters more, not the portfolio itself, but what it provides and gives to the family.

Because it allows you to live in luxury without working. Nice for you but others who do not have that luxury are not really going to care if you lose some value of your stocks in order to benefit their family.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

A recent poll showed that, overwhelmingly, the only people feared in HK are the police.

Thats sad to hear, but again the police wouldn't be committing these abuses if not for the riots hapening in the first place. If Hong Kong remained the peaceful and orderly society it had been before all this chaos started, everything would be fine and the police wouldn't be hurting anyone.

They'll be peaceful if the CCP did something unimaginable, like not trying to reduce their western style freedoms.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Sometimes when you deal with an Unrechstaat À la lanterne is often the only recourse.

Your valorisation of mass unbridled violence is actually pretty disconcerting to me, gotta be honest

If you were in charge we would still be politely debating the alleged merits of shooting people trying to escape the Tyranny of East Germany and doing jack and shit about it.

[Purgatio]

Did I say something funny?

The idea that the noveau billionaires haven't replaced the old aristocracy, repudiated all national responsibility, granted themselves effective tax exemption and commands their own hordes of serfs is funny yes.

Its not serfdom, no one is forcing you to work for them.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

The idea that the noveau billionaires haven't replaced the old aristocracy, repudiated all national responsibility, granted themselves effective tax exemption and commands their own hordes of serfs is funny yes.

Its not serfdom, no one is forcing you to work for them.

Lol.

[Purgatio]

It sounds diminishing when you say "life is not about stocks", but it's more than that, its about the stability and security and safety net that the portfolio brings with it. The portfolio comes with a steady stream of dividends and return on investments every quarter, which can be used to live on in case one gets sick or can't work anymore or your job doesn't pay enough to live a nice and comfortable lifestyle. That's a huge weight of my shoulder and my brother and whoever else may come after us when I grow up. That's what matters more, not the portfolio itself, but what it provides and gives to the family.

Because it allows you to live in luxury without working. Nice for you but others who do not have that luxury are not really going to care if you lose some value of your stocks in order to benefit their family.

That's pretty selfish of them then, to not care about the active injuries they inflict on other people's property.

[Novus America]

This is just pure whataboutism.
Two wrongs do not make a right.

And this is funny, because the PRC is itself killing the rule of law. So you are saying the state can just kill the rule of law and then be justified in committing violence?

Any dictatorship can use this argument to impose any atrocity.

Its not whataboutism if the police are resorting to brutalities only because they are scared for their lives. Rioters are throwing rocks and glass bottles and Molotov cocktails at them, many have gotten hurt or burnt, of course they scared and a minority may act out because of that fear and panic in them.

It is, it is saying criminal behavior of others justifies criminal behavior.
Hardly supporting the rule of law there.