Hong Kong

[Ethel mermania]

Whether they love it or not wall street is here and more or less works. Which is not relevant to the conversation. The point is businesses voting in a democracy is prohibited every place in the world but london, and hong kong, and in neither place do the residents like it. Which is not relevant to the claim of universal sufferage, and getting there is part of the basic agreement.

Hong Kong has universal suffrage, all adult citizens can vote for the geographical constituencies in the LegCo, so what's the big deal?

Universal suffrage also applies to candidates. They can not vote for whoever they want.

[Bombadil]

Whether they love it or not wall street is here and more or less works. Which is not relevant to the conversation. The point is businesses voting in a democracy is prohibited every place in the world but london, and hong kong, and in neither place do the residents like it. Which is not relevant to the claim of universal sufferage, and getting there is part of the basic agreement.

Hong Kong has universal suffrage, all adult citizens can vote for the geographical constituencies in the LegCo, so what's the big deal?

We can vote for just over half the seats actually, and they're set so that Democrats with 40% of the vote can get the same amount of seats as DAB can with 16% of the vote.

So it's highly rigged and mostly unrepresentative and provides near zero influence to the voting population.

[Genivaria]

When a defender of the CCP also defends corporate dictatorship in the same breath, what the fuck...

[Bombadil]

I'm surprised you don't see where the unreasonableness comes in.

1) Withdraw a Bill that was enacted in the wake of the scandal of the HK-Taiwan murder case where a Hong Konger who murdered his girlfriend in Taiwan could not be prosecuted because of lack of jurisdiction

2) Give protestors total and complete impunity for any crimes they committed, but hold police accountable for misconduct, a blatant hypocritical double standard if I ever saw one

3) After months of rioting and smashing the windows of small businesses and forcibly closing down an airport and firecrackers thrown in the street and throwing Molotov cocktails at police officers causing burns, the government isn't even allowed to call a riot a riot anymore

4) Totally eradicate the business community's interests in the LegCo

Plus, they use force and violence to attempt to coerce the government into caving to these absurd and unreasonable demands. The behaviour of political terrorists if I ever saw one.

Extraordinarily disingenuous on every single point.

[Novus America]

This is just back to people you agree with you should get more votes than people that do not so that you guarantee your political side wins.

No, people who have more at stake in the country's economic future and who are more affected by the country's policies, and whose individual self-determination is, ceteris paribus, more likely to be imperilled or jeopardised by the decisions the government makes. If someone's livelihood is relatively unaffected by what the present LegCo does, the importance of their 'voice' in government is, ceteris paribus, of less persuasive weight or relevance because they don't have a stake in the game.

This is just saying the same thing in different words, plus some unnecessary Latin.
We already heard this exact same argument, found it unconvincing and rejected it.

And people not benefiting as much from a situation have a stake in changing it.
Your argument is you like the status quo, and want to protect it by giving your side extra votes.
That is it.

[Purgatio]

Hong Kong has universal suffrage, all adult citizens can vote for the geographical constituencies in the LegCo, so what's the big deal?

We can vote for just over half the seats actually, and they're set so that Democrats with 40% of the vote can get the same amount of seats as DAB can with 16% of the vote.

So it's highly rigged and mostly unrepresentative and provides near zero influence to the voting population.

It makes sense for the LegCo to be a broad representation of different interests and demographics in HK society as a whole. So you have seats reserved for the 'normal' electorate, and seats reserved for specific sectors of the economy who are vital to HK's prosperity and the jeopardising of those sectors would hurt the welfare of all in HK generally. I don't see what's so inherently undemocratic of wanting a broader swathe of interests adequately represented in government. Different groups and sectors of the commanding heights of the economy having an efficacious voice in the legislature is very democratic, and the mix of geographical and functional constituencies, coupled with the way the 1200-seat Election Committee is chosen for Chief Executive indirect elections, is a good constitutional structure to achieve that kind of broader representation. It's also led HK well to become a thriving and prosperous financial hub.

[Pasong Tirad]

When a defender of the CCP also defends corporate dictatorship in the same breath, what the fuck...

Because the way the CCP is being run basically makes it a corporate dictatorship. Corporations would bow down to Xi if it meant lower taxes and access to a market of a billion people.

[Novus America]

When a defender of the CCP also defends corporate dictatorship in the same breath, what the fuck...

Well the CCP is a corporate dictatorship in all fairness.

[Purgatio]

I'm surprised you don't see where the unreasonableness comes in.

1) Withdraw a Bill that was enacted in the wake of the scandal of the HK-Taiwan murder case where a Hong Konger who murdered his girlfriend in Taiwan could not be prosecuted because of lack of jurisdiction

2) Give protestors total and complete impunity for any crimes they committed, but hold police accountable for misconduct, a blatant hypocritical double standard if I ever saw one

3) After months of rioting and smashing the windows of small businesses and forcibly closing down an airport and firecrackers thrown in the street and throwing Molotov cocktails at police officers causing burns, the government isn't even allowed to call a riot a riot anymore

4) Totally eradicate the business community's interests in the LegCo

Plus, they use force and violence to attempt to coerce the government into caving to these absurd and unreasonable demands. The behaviour of political terrorists if I ever saw one.

Extraordinarily disingenuous on every single point.

Compromise is essential for civilized dealings with one another, its the HK Rioters unwillingness to compromise or negotiate with Carrie Lam that means this crisis is going to be protracted in its character.

[Bombadil]

When a defender of the CCP also defends corporate dictatorship in the same breath, what the fuck...

The history of the CCP is such that most businesses were invested in by the military, which is a direct arm of the CCP. In fact one thing Xi Jinping did was to bring the military and all their investments back under direct control by eliminating his enemies, while making himself dictator for life.

The CCP is one big corrupt business venture, and that doesn't even start on their triad relations as shown by their defenders such as Junius Ho in HK and Chang An-le in Taiwan.. who spent 17 years in jail in the USA and is now the biggest supporter of CCP over there.

Some people just want to blind themselves to the danger in giving such power purely to business interests, all it results in is the repressive maintenance of that power at all costs.

[Novus America]

Extraordinarily disingenuous on every single point.

Compromise is essential for civilized dealings with one another, its the HK Rioters unwillingness to compromise or negotiate with Carrie Lam that means this crisis is going to be protracted in its character.

Compromise requires both sides make concessions. What is Lam offering them? Compromise is a two way street.

[Purgatio]

When a defender of the CCP also defends corporate dictatorship in the same breath, what the fuck...

Disliking riotous criminality is not the same as liking the CCP. I'm not a fan of the CCP's capital controls or intellectual property theft myself, but their SEZs and some pro-business policies and openness to foreign investment are good things, so its a mixed bag really. But going around throwing Molotov cocktails and rocks and smashing windows is definitely bad in my book.

[Pasong Tirad]

"Guys help they say one man one vote in a proportionaly representative system is good but businesses say maintaining the stratified power structures that give a handful of wealthy people nearly half the seats in the legislature and a disproportionate amount of political power over our daily lives is good. I don't know which one is better."

[Bombadil]

Extraordinarily disingenuous on every single point.

Compromise is essential for civilized dealings with one another, its the HK Rioters unwillingness to compromise or negotiate with Carrie Lam that means this crisis is going to be protracted in its character.

As shown by the largely peaceful mass protests and the recent elections, the HK people want Carrie Lam to compromise, she won't because she can't.

However they did all this for the protestors in Wenlou, where they overturned and burnt police cars.. caved into the demands, granted amnesty and opened an investigation.

HK is already a second class citizen city, it's just a bank for the CCP and fuck the people.

[Purgatio]

"Guys help they say one man one vote in a proportionaly representative system is good but businesses say maintaining the stratified power structures that give a handful of wealthy people nearly half the seats in the legislature and a disproportionate amount of political power over our daily lives is good. I don't know which one is better."

A very dishonest framing of the current LegCo and Election Committee structure. Again, the aim is to adequately represent different parts and sectors of HK society, including the crucial commanding heights of its economy, its business and commercial community. Different parts of HK society have different interests, the goal is to have those competing interests and their voices represented in the legislature so that any laws which are passed adequately protect all those interests, those of the average person and the business/commercial community. That's extremely democratic and, more importantly, its inclusive and polycentric.

[Novus America]

When a defender of the CCP also defends corporate dictatorship in the same breath, what the fuck...

Disliking riotous criminality is not the same as liking the CCP. I'm not a fan of the CCP's capital controls or intellectual property theft myself, but their SEZs and some pro-business policies and openness to foreign investment are good things, so its a mixed bag really. But going around throwing Molotov cocktails and rocks and smashing windows is definitely bad in my book.

Notice how you said nothing about human rights.
Basically you only dislike the PRC’s protectionism. Not that you dislike their brutal one party dictatorship. See the problem is you have one (self serving) priority, and nobody else here has that one same priority.

[Bombadil]

"Guys help they say one man one vote in a proportionaly representative system is good but businesses say maintaining the stratified power structures that give a handful of wealthy people nearly half the seats in the legislature and a disproportionate amount of political power over our daily lives is good. I don't know which one is better."

A very dishonest framing of the current LegCo and Election Committee structure. Again, the aim is to adequately represent different parts and sectors of HK society, including the crucial commanding heights of its economy, its business and commercial community. Different parts of HK society have different interests, the goal is to have those competing interests and their voices represented in the legislature so that any laws which are passed adequately protect all those interests, those of the average person and the business/commercial community. That's extremely democratic and, more importantly, its inclusive and polycentric.

They all have representation with one person one vote.

[Purgatio]

Compromise is essential for civilized dealings with one another, its the HK Rioters unwillingness to compromise or negotiate with Carrie Lam that means this crisis is going to be protracted in its character.

As shown by the largely peaceful mass protests and the recent elections, the HK people want Carrie Lam to compromise, she won't because she can't.

However they did all this for the protestors in Wenlou, where they overturned and burnt police cars.. caved into the demands, granted amnesty and opened an investigation.

HK is already a second class citizen city, it's just a bank for the CCP and fuck the people.

How many leaders of the HK Rioters have condemned those acts of violence? You keep saying they are isolated but am I supposed to believe an 'isolated' section of the protestors were able to shut down an airport or block up MTR stations or break into the LegCo? Seems more than just an isolated tiny de minimis chunk of people, right?

[Purgatio]

Disliking riotous criminality is not the same as liking the CCP. I'm not a fan of the CCP's capital controls or intellectual property theft myself, but their SEZs and some pro-business policies and openness to foreign investment are good things, so its a mixed bag really. But going around throwing Molotov cocktails and rocks and smashing windows is definitely bad in my book.

Notice how you said nothing about human rights.
Basically you only dislike the PRC’s protectionism. Not that you dislike their brutal one party dictatorship. See the problem is you have one (self serving) priority, and nobody else here has that one same priority.

Excuse me? How the hell is it self-serving? I'm not a businessman in HK or the Mainland, its just being an objective analyst. If the PRC adopted tougher IP laws, abided by WTO rules better, and dropped capital controls, the Mainland economy would be better. And if HK dropped its functional constituency system, its status as a prosperous financial hub in Asia would be threatened and capital flight will occur as people fear left-wing populism taking over the city. All I care about is having a political structure that adequately provides for economic prosperity and stability, nothing self-serving there, wouldn't you say?

[Pasong Tirad]

"Guys help they say one man one vote in a proportionaly representative system is good but businesses say maintaining the stratified power structures that give a handful of wealthy people nearly half the seats in the legislature and a disproportionate amount of political power over our daily lives is good. I don't know which one is better."

A very dishonest framing of the current LegCo and Election Committee structure. Again, the aim is to adequately represent different parts and sectors of HK society, including the crucial commanding heights of its economy, its business and commercial community. Different parts of HK society have different interests, the goal is to have those competing interests and their voices represented in the legislature so that any laws which are passed adequately protect all those interests, those of the average person and the business/commercial community. That's extremely democratic and, more importantly, its inclusive and polycentric.

Lol no it isn't. The sectoral seats were literally established to entrench pro-business (and pro-Beijing) support.

[Novus America]

"Guys help they say one man one vote in a proportionaly representative system is good but businesses say maintaining the stratified power structures that give a handful of wealthy people nearly half the seats in the legislature and a disproportionate amount of political power over our daily lives is good. I don't know which one is better."

A very dishonest framing of the current LegCo and Election Committee structure. Again, the aim is to adequately represent different parts and sectors of HK society, including the crucial commanding heights of its economy, its business and commercial community. Different parts of HK society have different interests, the goal is to have those competing interests and their voices represented in the legislature so that any laws which are passed adequately protect all those interests, those of the average person and the business/commercial community. That's extremely democratic and, more importantly, its inclusive and polycentric.

This is BS, the goal is to uphold the status quo will giving the illusion of choice. There is a decided lack of balance. Certain sectors (those benefiting most from the current structure) get extra votes, meanwhile other sectors do not.

[Purgatio]

A very dishonest framing of the current LegCo and Election Committee structure. Again, the aim is to adequately represent different parts and sectors of HK society, including the crucial commanding heights of its economy, its business and commercial community. Different parts of HK society have different interests, the goal is to have those competing interests and their voices represented in the legislature so that any laws which are passed adequately protect all those interests, those of the average person and the business/commercial community. That's extremely democratic and, more importantly, its inclusive and polycentric.

They all have representation with one person one vote.

But the different interests aren't represented adequately in such a system. The leaders in HK's financial sector, asset and wealth management sector, they have a bigger stake in government policies than someone in HK with no wealth and hence little stake in HK's future trajectory or its maintenance as a thriving financial hub. The present system balances their competing interests in a polycentric institution that represents people with different views from different sections of society and the economy. They duke it out in the LegCo and any laws passed are a good and adequate compromise of what the average person wants versus important commercial sectors of the economy.

[Bombadil]

As shown by the largely peaceful mass protests and the recent elections, the HK people want Carrie Lam to compromise, she won't because she can't.

However they did all this for the protestors in Wenlou, where they overturned and burnt police cars.. caved into the demands, granted amnesty and opened an investigation.

HK is already a second class citizen city, it's just a bank for the CCP and fuck the people.

How many leaders of the HK Rioters have condemned those acts of violence? You keep saying they are isolated but am I supposed to believe an 'isolated' section of the protestors were able to shut down an airport or block up MTR stations or break into the LegCo? Seems more than just an isolated tiny de minimis chunk of people, right?

It's a dedicated set that maintain the new cycle, it's unfortunate but necessary alas. We all learned in 2014 that no matter the will of the people, no matter the sentiment, no matter the majority, no change comes from compromise or dialogue.

Why should our freedoms be taken away from us?

To what levels would you accept your own freedoms to be taken away before you acted, because god knows it would be too late.

[Purgatio]

A very dishonest framing of the current LegCo and Election Committee structure. Again, the aim is to adequately represent different parts and sectors of HK society, including the crucial commanding heights of its economy, its business and commercial community. Different parts of HK society have different interests, the goal is to have those competing interests and their voices represented in the legislature so that any laws which are passed adequately protect all those interests, those of the average person and the business/commercial community. That's extremely democratic and, more importantly, its inclusive and polycentric.

Lol no it isn't. The sectoral seats were literally established to entrench pro-business (and pro-Beijing) support.

Then why have geographical constituencies at all? Why not abolish them all? The aim is to achieve balance between the geographical and functional constituencies and the sectors and demographics whose interests they protect.

[Pasong Tirad]

They all have representation with one person one vote.

But the different interests aren't represented adequately in such a system. The leaders in HK's financial sector, asset and wealth management sector, they have a bigger stake in government policies than someone in HK with no wealth and hence little stake in HK's future trajectory or its maintenance as a thriving financial hub. The present system balances their competing interests in a polycentric institution that represents people with different views from different sections of society and the economy. They duke it out in the LegCo and any laws passed are a good and adequate compromise of what the average person wants versus important commercial sectors of the economy.

"Not represented adequately" here means "Businesses should have a greater say because they're richer than the plebs."