Hong Kong

[North German Realm]

At the risk of being called a "Yellow Menace-ist" or Sinophobe, China has always been an enemy. Not just to the west, but to anyone that could ever have a relationship with them. The ideologies they're erected by necessitated it, even during their long age of isolation.

East Asian thought is different than that of Europe. That's not to say that east Asians by nature are this way or all think like this, but democracy doesn't have a strong tradition in that region of the world. Supporting the rulers even if they're horrible, obeying authority even if it sucks and honoring your superiors even if no one is actually superior are toxic ideas that have festered in China and surrounding areas since time immemorial. The CCP continues to push these ideas to justify their tyranny, while people in the city of Hong Kong question whether those ideas were ever good. As East Kekistan said before he vanished, China produces sociopaths. It's culture seeks to subjugate all and to control. The ideas of freedom or equality are seen as the enemy in that society and when you're fighting a society that tries to create the closest thing to a hive mind among men, you must understand that you're in danger.

This is not sinophobia or yellow peril paranoia. It's just the truth. Maybe things can change in China. I don't give up hope on that front. But right now, we face an enemy that wants to take over everything and everyone. They're watching us and slowly drawing their plans against us.

It's not about "East Asian Thought". It's about Historical China legitimately believing that everything it can touch is part of its dominion, and that -in the most ruthless term- a person who does not live inside the borders of China is not human. China using its economy to control its neighbors and using its military to dictate regional supremacy is something that is at least as old as Islamic presence in East Asia and Oceania.

[Rojava Free State]

At the risk of being called a "Yellow Menace-ist" or Sinophobe, China has always been an enemy. Not just to the west, but to anyone that could ever have a relationship with them. The ideologies they're erected by necessitated it, even during their long age of isolation.

Sinostatism is a 2200-year-old social illness characterized by extreme absence of rights and a completely disarmed population.

Symptoms include but are not limited to:

•Death
•Torture
•Widespread fear of constantly being watched by the government
•not being able to say no to people in power out of a warped sense of honor
•Going along with the ideas of the fearless leader even if they're awful
•Thinking ones society is the best and that freedom would weaken it
•Bloody and horrific wars between states that cause millions of deaths
•Telling people this when they say you have sinostatism: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lQUURGS0OtQ

[Rojava Free State]

East Asian thought is different than that of Europe. That's not to say that east Asians by nature are this way or all think like this, but democracy doesn't have a strong tradition in that region of the world. Supporting the rulers even if they're horrible, obeying authority even if it sucks and honoring your superiors even if no one is actually superior are toxic ideas that have festered in China and surrounding areas since time immemorial. The CCP continues to push these ideas to justify their tyranny, while people in the city of Hong Kong question whether those ideas were ever good. As East Kekistan said before he vanished, China produces sociopaths. It's culture seeks to subjugate all and to control. The ideas of freedom or equality are seen as the enemy in that society and when you're fighting a society that tries to create the closest thing to a hive mind among men, you must understand that you're in danger.

This is not sinophobia or yellow peril paranoia. It's just the truth. Maybe things can change in China. I don't give up hope on that front. But right now, we face an enemy that wants to take over everything and everyone. They're watching us and slowly drawing their plans against us.

It's not about "East Asian Thought". It's about Historical China legitimately believing that everything it can touch is part of its dominion, and that -in the most ruthless term- a person who does not live inside the borders of China is not human. China using its economy to control its neighbors and using its military to dictate regional supremacy is something that is at least as old as Islamic presence in East Asia and Oceania.

Thought influences policy. This thought process brought China to where it's at, and continues to ruin everything touched by the middle kingdom

[Gorbehstan]

At the risk of being called a "Yellow Menace-ist" or Sinophobe, China has always been an enemy. Not just to the west, but to anyone that could ever have a relationship with them. The ideologies they're erected by necessitated it, even during their long age of isolation.

East Asian thought is different than that of Europe. That's not to say that east Asians by nature are this way or all think like this, but democracy doesn't have a strong tradition in that region of the world. Supporting the rulers even if they're horrible, obeying authority even if it sucks and honoring your superiors even if no one is actually superior are toxic ideas that have festered in China and surrounding areas since time immemorial. The CCP continues to push these ideas to justify their tyranny, while people in the city of Hong Kong question whether those ideas were ever good. As East Kekistan said before he vanished, China produces sociopaths. It's culture seeks to subjugate all and to control. The ideas of freedom or equality are seen as the enemy in that society and when you're fighting a society that tries to create the closest thing to a hive mind among men, you must understand that you're in danger.

This is not sinophobia or yellow peril paranoia. It's just the truth. Maybe things can change in China. I don't give up hope on that front. But right now, we face an enemy that wants to take over everything and everyone. They're watching us and slowly drawing their plans against us.

I’m back.

It was not like that since time immemorial. Instead it has been like that since Qin Dynasty. Before that China was a normal place just like everywhere else. However might makes right gradually became the norm as isolation made it impossible to enforce any morals or social norms on Chinese emperors. Each period of mass depopulation and the Malthusian hell caused the population to be increasingly smart, hard-working AND cunning. Eventually we have a weird nuclear power nobody dares to mess with which has a large group of high IQ, hard-working people who simply want to and are good at getting ahead at each other’s expense at any cost. Welcome to modern China.

The election results in Hong Kong informed me that a mixed Anglo-Chinese culture should be able to do better than both.

[Thanatttynia]

I'm no fan of the CCP but I think we should be wary of falling into a yellow-menace moral panic... evil cogs, cunning sycophants, social illness? Come on, people

Ultimately, we follow the same god nowadays. The only reasonable way to pressure China into accepting a role below hegemon in the world order is by hitting them economically whilst we still can. It can be done - see the unequal treaties, or the handover of HK itself.

[Rojava Free State]

East Asian thought is different than that of Europe. That's not to say that east Asians by nature are this way or all think like this, but democracy doesn't have a strong tradition in that region of the world. Supporting the rulers even if they're horrible, obeying authority even if it sucks and honoring your superiors even if no one is actually superior are toxic ideas that have festered in China and surrounding areas since time immemorial. The CCP continues to push these ideas to justify their tyranny, while people in the city of Hong Kong question whether those ideas were ever good. As East Kekistan said before he vanished, China produces sociopaths. It's culture seeks to subjugate all and to control. The ideas of freedom or equality are seen as the enemy in that society and when you're fighting a society that tries to create the closest thing to a hive mind among men, you must understand that you're in danger.

This is not sinophobia or yellow peril paranoia. It's just the truth. Maybe things can change in China. I don't give up hope on that front. But right now, we face an enemy that wants to take over everything and everyone. They're watching us and slowly drawing their plans against us.

I’m back.

It was not like that since time immemorial. Instead it has been like that since Qin Dynasty. Before that China was a normal place just like everywhere else. However might makes right gradually became the norm as isolation made it impossible to enforce any morals or social norms on Chinese emperors. Each period of mass depopulation and the Malthusian hell caused the population to be increasingly smart, hard-working AND cunning. Eventually we have a weird nuclear power nobody dares to mess with which has a large group of high IQ, hard-working people who simply want to and are good at getting ahead at each other’s expense at any cost. Welcome to modern China.

The election results in Hong Kong informed me that a mixed Anglo-Chinese culture should be able to do better than both.

It's like turning humans into machines. Taking away their ability to think for themselves or feel something until they just do as they're told without showing any feelings

[Rojava Free State]

I'm no fan of the CCP but I think we should be wary of falling into a yellow-menace moral panic... evil cogs, cunning sycophants, social illness? Come on, people

Ultimately, we follow the same god nowadays. The only reasonable way to pressure China into accepting a role below hegemon in the world order is by hitting them economically whilst we still can. It can be done - see the unequal treaties, or the handover of HK itself.

Yellow menace is based around the idea that Asians are by nature a danger though, and that it's all of them and they can't change. Certain East Asian cultures such as taiwan, and Hong Kong have changed and the descendants of the children of east Asian immigrants in america are just like any other americans. It's the culture in China that pushes this crap, and only by changing the culture can you change the government. It's why Japan is a democracy now and not run by a God emperor.

[Gorbehstan]

I think one good example of Sinostatism is the short story “Seven Kill Tiger”. A Chinese neocolonial bureaucrat in Africa worries that his superiors in China will arrest and execute him due to lack of mining profits which he thinks is caused by his African workers not working hard enough. His solution is of course releasing an ethnobioweapon and simply exterminate all black Africans. When confronted by a white American microbiologist a polite Chinese agent simply asked him to choose between a world with no blacks and a world with no humans. The story ends when the agents are released, presumably successfully. Of course according to the author the world will not do anything about a depopulated Africa...because in the Sinostatist world might is right and if you are sufficiently strong you can get away with everything.

[Gorbehstan]

I'm no fan of the CCP but I think we should be wary of falling into a yellow-menace moral panic... evil cogs, cunning sycophants, social illness? Come on, people

Ultimately, we follow the same god nowadays. The only reasonable way to pressure China into accepting a role below hegemon in the world order is by hitting them economically whilst we still can. It can be done - see the unequal treaties, or the handover of HK itself.

I was born in China. Sinostatism is not racial. It is basically similar to other kinds of statism, just purified and distilled to unimaginable concentration. The difference between Sinostatism and Francostatism or Russostatism is in degree, not in kind in the same sense that boiling water and liquid iron are both hot, just to different degrees.

[Gorbehstan]

I’m back.

It was not like that since time immemorial. Instead it has been like that since Qin Dynasty. Before that China was a normal place just like everywhere else. However might makes right gradually became the norm as isolation made it impossible to enforce any morals or social norms on Chinese emperors. Each period of mass depopulation and the Malthusian hell caused the population to be increasingly smart, hard-working AND cunning. Eventually we have a weird nuclear power nobody dares to mess with which has a large group of high IQ, hard-working people who simply want to and are good at getting ahead at each other’s expense at any cost. Welcome to modern China.

The election results in Hong Kong informed me that a mixed Anglo-Chinese culture should be able to do better than both.

It's like turning humans into machines. Taking away their ability to think for themselves or feel something until they just do as they're told without showing any feelings

Uh.. It is more complex than that. What you described is actually high social unity albeit in a very authoritarian culture. China is very low social unity. People do think for themselves. However they can not organize and can do not dare to rebel...while being indifferent to atrocities.

[Thanatttynia]

I'm no fan of the CCP but I think we should be wary of falling into a yellow-menace moral panic... evil cogs, cunning sycophants, social illness? Come on, people

Ultimately, we follow the same god nowadays. The only reasonable way to pressure China into accepting a role below hegemon in the world order is by hitting them economically whilst we still can. It can be done - see the unequal treaties, or the handover of HK itself.

Yellow menace is based around the idea that Asians are by nature a danger though, and that it's all of them and they can't change. Certain East Asian cultures such as taiwan, and Hong Kong have changed and the descendants of the children of east Asian immigrants in america are just like any other americans. It's the culture in China that pushes this crap, and only by changing the culture can you change the government. It's why Japan is a democracy now and not run by a God emperor.

I don't mean to suggest you're being racist. 'Assimilate [to Western culture] or die' is theoretically not dissimilar to what China is doing to the Uyghurs/HK/Tibet nowadays; the difference is they have the power to act on it and we, currently, don't.

I'm no fan of the CCP but I think we should be wary of falling into a yellow-menace moral panic... evil cogs, cunning sycophants, social illness? Come on, people

Ultimately, we follow the same god nowadays. The only reasonable way to pressure China into accepting a role below hegemon in the world order is by hitting them economically whilst we still can. It can be done - see the unequal treaties, or the handover of HK itself.

I was born in China. Sinostatism is not racial. It is basically similar to other kinds of statism, just purified and distilled to unimaginable concentration. The difference between Sinostatism and Francostatism or Russostatism is in degree, not in kind in the same sense that boiling water and liquid iron are both hot, just to different degrees.

Yes, I agree. Again, don't mean to suggest its borne out of racism. I just got the sense reading over the last few pages that this thread has devolved somewhat into a feedback loop of 'isn't China so very different and scary,' which, sure, it is, but then what?

[Plzen]

...because in the Sinostatist world might is right and if you are sufficiently strong you can get away with everything.

This seems like a very odd statement to make. In the world in general if you have enough negotiating leverage over others you can get away with anything; that world need not be either Sinitic or statist for that to be true.

---

I really question whether all this fear of growing Chinese influence is justified.

Democratic great powers have a very long history - as long as the history of great power democracies, in fact - of propping up authoritarian regimes and turning a blind eye to humanitarian crises if by doing so they could extend their influence against those of other great powers. Democracy and freedom at home meant, and continues to mean, nothing to British, French, or American diplomats when they conducted their business of state in less powerful nations. America wants pro-American governments; if that means a democracy, good, but if that means an autocracy, well who cares it isn't their people or their country.

Consequently, I find it probable that authoritarian loyalty at home means nothing and will continue to mean nothing to Chinese diplomats who do their business of state in less powerful nations. I find it probable that China wants the most pro-Chinese governments possible; if that means one-party authoritarianism, good, but if that means democracy, eh, who cares it's not their regime.

The superpower that I believe poses the greatest threat to my freedom, under realist (as in the realist school of international relations, not realist as in similar to actual reality) assumptions that I don't think are unjustified, is necessarily going to be the superpower that holds the greatest influence in the society I live in. Perhaps one day that will be China, but right now that is the United States.

I'm not influential enough to decide on policy changes nor courageous enough to fight for them, but as a citizen in a democracy I have voice and vote, and I will use them to argue for the protection of my voice and vote from the enemies of my freedom - from all enemies of my freedom, even those that claim to fight for "freedom."

[Novus America]

I'm no fan of the CCP but I think we should be wary of falling into a yellow-menace moral panic... evil cogs, cunning sycophants, social illness? Come on, people

Ultimately, we follow the same god nowadays. The only reasonable way to pressure China into accepting a role below hegemon in the world order is by hitting them economically whilst we still can. It can be done - see the unequal treaties, or the handover of HK itself.

Well it is important to note the enemy is the CCP, not Chinese people. The Chinese people of Hong Kong and Taiwan are also fighting for freedom from Xi’s megalomaniacal tyranny.

[Gorbehstan]

To explain Sinostatism...

Take Dzungars as an example. Qing China (it was ruled by Manchus, not the Han. However it was still Sinostatist) simply exterminated them. Unlike massacres of Jews and Armenians which left enough survivors to remember and sometimes even punish genocide perpetrators, no punishment came to the Qing emperor, Qianlong, who was actually considered one of the best (WTF) emperors of the dynasty.

Dzungars are dead. Dzungaria only exists as a geographical term now. Its inhabitants are mostly Han because Qing moves people there (again, by force cuz China can do whatever it wants to its subjects).

Right now, the fucking Xi thinks....”What if I simply exterminate all Uyghurs? Maybe also Tibetans , Hong Kongers, Taiwanese and other undesirables? We have nukes. The world has to live with it or we will destroy everything. Hitler failed at either exterminating all Jews or stopping revenge because he was not sufficiently strong. If he had nukes he would have succeeded. Now I have nukes and have a very good tracking record at getting away with anything and everything..WTF is international law? Just like any kind of rules and morals it is just crap that only idiots believe in..”

The world could punish Amin and Bokassa because they were not sufficiently competent to get away with everything..China and North Korea on the other hand...

[Ethel mermania]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-06/now-even-accountants-are-fighting-over-democracy-in-hong-kong

Now Even Accountants Are Fighting Over Democracy in Hong Kong

Less than a month after Hong Kongers delivered a landslide victory to pro-democracy candidates in district elections, the battle over the city’s future is shifting somewhere you might not expect: the staid world of accounting.

Candidates in this year’s election for the council of the Hong Kong Institute of Certified Public Accountants are being judged largely based on whether they support the city’s pro-democracy movement or are seen to align the pro-Beijing establishment.

It’s not the first time citywide debates have influenced the institute, which certifies accountants and is responsible for overseeing industry standards. But this year’s election is proving especially heated in the wake of protests that have rocked the financial hub for almost six months, according to Rosalind Lee, one of the six pro-democracy candidates.

It underscores the degree to which pro-democracy and pro-government forces are fighting for influence across Hong Kong, even at institutions that ostensibly have little to do with politics. Similar battles have reported to have played out in varying degrees at other professional groups for architects, engineers, doctors and lawyers.

With votes from 44,000 members of the accounting institute due on Dec. 9, the pro-democracy camp has taken to social media to drum up support from younger members of the profession. Pro-Beijing accounting firms and related organizations have been urging staff to support their favored candidates, while officials from China’s Liaison Office in Hong Kong have frequented industry banquets and forums.

All of the so-called Big Four global accounting firms -- Deloitte LLP, PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP, Ernst & Young LLP and KPMG LLP -- have sent identical lists of pro-establishment candidates to staff, according to notices seen by Bloomberg. All four firms have a big presence in China. EY, Deloitte and KPMG spokespeople declined to comment. PwC wasn’t available to comment.

The Chinese government is using various groups in Hong Kong, commonly known as satellite associations, to mobilize support for their preferred candidates, said Benson Wong, a political scientist and former assistant professor at Hong Kong Baptist University.

For some pro-democracy industry practitioners, Beijing’s attempts to influence the election look excessive. “It’s very bad for the profession, and it’s bad for ‘one country, two systems,’” said Kenneth Leung, an accountant and lawmaker on the Legislative Council.

“I don’t object to the Liaison Office regularly meeting with Hong Kong people from different walks of life to build mutual understanding,” said Frankie Yan, a spokesman for financial services at the Professional Commons, a pro-democracy affiliated pressure group. “But it shouldn’t influence our decision or give directions. Hong Kong professionals should have their own stance and professional judgment.”

The accounting council, which counts Hong Kong Financial Secretary Paul Chan among its former leaders, said in a statement that it’s “confident in the integrity” of the election. “We trust and expect that no parties will manipulate the system, as integrity is the bedrock of the CPA profession.”

The China Liaison Office didn’t respond to a fax seeking a comment.

While pro-establishment council members have long dominated the accounting institute, their grip has weakened in recent years. Five from the pro-democracy side were elected last year to the 21-member council after campaigning together for the first time the previous year.

In some ways, the candidates’ platforms mirror those of pro-democracy politicians in Hong Kong. They’re advocating for a one-person, one vote system for the council president -- which is currently elected by only council members -- and for the institute to take a stance on social issues such as the now withdrawn extradition bill that sparked the city’s protests.

This year’s vote involves seven seats on the council and pits six pro-democracy candidates against seven from the establishment camp. Four of the pro-democracy candidates are running for re-election, meaning that at most they’ll be able to pick up two more seats.

It would be a far cry from the historic shift seen in last month’s district council elections, but pro-democracy supporters are pushing for every victory they can get.

Even the sacred vow of "dollars first" is in danger.

While dollars are nice, if you think that is the first goal of the PRC you are sadly mistaken.

Just for giggles did you ever read the article in my .sig?

[Rojava Free State]

...because in the Sinostatist world might is right and if you are sufficiently strong you can get away with everything.

This seems like a very odd statement to make. In the world in general if you have enough negotiating leverage over others you can get away with anything; that world need not be either Sinitic or statist for that to be true.

---

I really question whether all this fear of growing Chinese influence is justified.

Democratic great powers have a very long history - as long as the history of great power democracies, in fact - of propping up authoritarian regimes and turning a blind eye to humanitarian crises if by doing so they could extend their influence against those of other great powers. Democracy and freedom at home meant, and continues to mean, nothing to British, French, or American diplomats when they conducted their business of state in less powerful nations. America wants pro-American governments; if that means a democracy, good, but if that means an autocracy, well who cares it isn't their people or their country.

Consequently, I find it probable that authoritarian loyalty at home means nothing and will continue to mean nothing to Chinese diplomats who do their business of state in less powerful nations. I find it probable that China wants the most pro-Chinese governments possible; if that means one-party authoritarianism, good, but if that means democracy, eh, who cares it's not their regime.

The superpower that I believe poses the greatest threat to my freedom, under realist (as in the realist school of international relations, not realist as in similar to actual reality) assumptions that I don't think are unjustified, is necessarily going to be the superpower that holds the greatest influence in the society I live in. Perhaps one day that will be China, but right now that is the United States.

I'm not influential enough to decide on policy changes nor courageous enough to fight for them, but as a citizen in a democracy I have voice and vote, and I will use them to argue for the protection of my voice and vote from the enemies of my freedom - from all enemies of my freedom, even those that claim to fight for "freedom."

I fear China the most because it's as opposite my worldview as anyone could be. Don't mistake my opposition to china for support for other governments

[Galloism]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-06/now-even-accountants-are-fighting-over-democracy-in-hong-kong



Even the sacred vow of "dollars first" is in danger.

While dollars are nice, if you think that is the first goal of the PRC you are sadly mistaken.

Just for giggles did you ever read the article in my .sig?

I wasn't talking about the PRC. I was talking about the accountants.

I hadn't, but I'm looking now.

[Plzen]

I fear China the most because it's as opposite my worldview as anyone could be. Don't mistake my opposition to china for support for other governments

Why? How often do nation-states act in accordance with their values, as opposed to their interests? While it is certainly important to question whether your democratic liberties are in opposition to the CCP's values, it feels to me considerably more important to question whether your democratic liberties are in opposition to the CCP's interests. From that perspective China looks just like any other hegemonic great power and any motion to deal with them can stand in line along with motions to deal with all the other hegemonic great powers our planet is and, seemingly, has always been infested with.

[Rojava Free State]

I fear China the most because it's as opposite my worldview as anyone could be. Don't mistake my opposition to china for support for other governments

Why? How often do nation-states act in accordance with their values, as opposed to their interests? While it is certainly important to question whether your democratic liberties are in opposition to the CCP's values, it feels to me considerably more important to question whether your democratic liberties are in opposition to the CCP's interests. From that perspective China looks just like any other hegemonic great power and any motion to deal with them can stand in line along with motions to deal with all the other hegemonic great powers our planet is and, seemingly, has always been infested with.

Yeah well there's a pretty false equivalence between somewhere like Italy and china. I oppose for example the Israeli governments abuse of human rights, but while they're not exactly in good moral standing, china's leaders make Netanyahu look like st bibi. Nation states often act according to interest, but the frequency of this behavior and the disastrous effects vary. China is far more authoritarian and imperialistic than France, and I view them as more of a danger than any other government on earth.

[Gorbehstan]

Why? How often do nation-states act in accordance with their values, as opposed to their interests? While it is certainly important to question whether your democratic liberties are in opposition to the CCP's values, it feels to me considerably more important to question whether your democratic liberties are in opposition to the CCP's interests. From that perspective China looks just like any other hegemonic great power and any motion to deal with them can stand in line along with motions to deal with all the other hegemonic great powers our planet is and, seemingly, has always been infested with.

Yeah well there's a pretty false equivalence between somewhere like Italy and china. I oppose for example the Israeli governments abuse of human rights, but while they're not exactly in good moral standing, china's leaders make Netanyahu look like st bibi. Nation states often act according to interest, but the frequency of this behavior and the disastrous effects vary. China is far more authoritarian and imperialistic than France, and I view them as more of a danger than any other government on earth.

If power is analogous to gravity then China is analogous to a black hole. Authoritarianism and statism there have been refined to an unimaginable level. With high IQ and grit it is actually plausible for China to become technologically dominant through slave labor (e.g. many tech people work for at least 72 hours a week). We will see whether Huawei, an extremely brutal military-backed “company”, can produce competent hardware and software. If it could then freedom all over the world is threatened. As long as slavery exists somewhere free workers everywhere are in trouble.

[Plzen]

Yeah well there's a pretty false equivalence between somewhere like Italy and china. I oppose for example the Israeli governments abuse of human rights, but while they're not exactly in good moral standing, china's leaders make Netanyahu look like st bibi. Nation states often act according to interest, but the frequency of this behavior and the disastrous effects vary. China is far more authoritarian and imperialistic than France, and I view them as more of a danger than any other government on earth.

Certainly China has racked up a much more appalling list of atrocities than Israel has since the founding of both modern states in the '40s. But for both states, most of that list was accumulated within their own borders with their own people (I'm counting Palestine as part of Israel here, which since they're permanently governed by Israel is de facto the case, whatever you think about the de jure situation). Since the country I live in is no longer a great power, the domestic policy of great powers don't concern me except through abstract ethical concerns insofar as I believe everyone everywhere ought to be democratically governed.

What matters to me is the foreign policy of these powers, especially their policy towards the country I live in. And here, as I said in my previous post, "democracy and freedom at home meant, and continues to mean, nothing to British, French, or American diplomats when they conducted their business of state in less powerful nations."

I would seriously contest your assertion that China today is "far more authoritarian and imperialistic" than France was back when they were the second most powerful state on Earth. Of course they've diminished somewhat in stature since; lists of their recent atrocities abroad shrunk, because their ability to conduct such atrocities have shrunk in line with their international stature.

[Gorbehstan]

Yeah well there's a pretty false equivalence between somewhere like Italy and china. I oppose for example the Israeli governments abuse of human rights, but while they're not exactly in good moral standing, china's leaders make Netanyahu look like st bibi. Nation states often act according to interest, but the frequency of this behavior and the disastrous effects vary. China is far more authoritarian and imperialistic than France, and I view them as more of a danger than any other government on earth.

Certainly China has racked up a much more appalling list of atrocities than Israel has since the founding of both modern states in the '40s. But for both states, most of that list was accumulated within their own borders with their own people (I'm counting Palestine as part of Israel here, which since they're permanently governed by Israel is de facto the case, whatever you think about the de jure situation). Since the country I live in is no longer a great power, the domestic policy of great powers don't concern me except through abstract ethical concerns insofar as I believe everyone everywhere ought to be democratically governed.

What matters to me is the foreign policy of these powers, especially their policy towards the country I live in. And here, as I said in my previous post, "democracy and freedom at home meant, and continues to mean, nothing to British, French, or American diplomats when they conducted their business of state in less powerful nations."

I would seriously contest your assertion that China today is "far more authoritarian and imperialistic" than France was back when they were the second most powerful state on Earth. Of course they've diminished somewhat in stature since; lists of their recent atrocities abroad shrunk, because their ability to conduct such atrocities have shrunk in line with their international stature.

Did the French state or lack thereof cause serious depopulation inside France? No? The Chinese state and Hobbesian warfare between Chinese states on the other hand regularly caused serious depopulation in China.

[Plzen]

Did the French state or lack thereof cause serious depopulation inside France? No? The Chinese state and Hobbesian warfare between Chinese states on the other hand regularly caused serious depopulation in China.

[...] Since the country I live in is no longer a great power, the domestic policy of great powers don't concern me except through abstract ethical concerns insofar as I believe everyone everywhere ought to be democratically governed.

What matters to me is the foreign policy of these powers, especially their policy towards the country I live in.

I think that adequately covers it. If you wish to critique my way of thinking, you ought to do me the courtesy of reading when I express that way of thinking.

[Nakena]

If power is analogous to gravity then China is analogous to a black hole. Authoritarianism and statism there have been refined to an unimaginable level. With high IQ and grit it is actually plausible for China to become technologically dominant through slave labor (e.g. many tech people work for at least 72 hours a week). We will see whether Huawei, an extremely brutal military-backed “company”, can produce competent hardware and software. If it could then freedom all over the world is threatened. As long as slavery exists somewhere free workers everywhere are in trouble.

Do you believe that they would go as far as, in the future, use genetic engineering to breed different castes of people, including a slave caste of underlings?

[Gorbehstan]

If power is analogous to gravity then China is analogous to a black hole. Authoritarianism and statism there have been refined to an unimaginable level. With high IQ and grit it is actually plausible for China to become technologically dominant through slave labor (e.g. many tech people work for at least 72 hours a week). We will see whether Huawei, an extremely brutal military-backed “company”, can produce competent hardware and software. If it could then freedom all over the world is threatened. As long as slavery exists somewhere free workers everywhere are in trouble.

Do you believe that they would go as far as, in the future, use genetic engineering to breed different castes of people, including a slave caste of underlings?

China is historically not castist. A more likely scenario is breeding everyone to be as obedient to the emperor as robots using genetic engineering . Everybody else including the emperor’s wife and kids have to be a fucking obedient drone.