Hong Kong

[Nobel Hobos 2]

It further occurs to me that paying protestors in a hostile foreign nation is just absolutely boneheaded, even if you have an unlimited budget.

After all, that $1k a month is useless if it isn't spent, and what are HKers gonna spend it on? Rent, food, etc. All of which some way or another, go into the CCP's treasury.

So why would China be complaining about getting free money? Sure, the unrest and negative PR are problems, but its literally getting free money to counteract that, if its narrative is true.

That's more persuasive than the previous argument, Grenatia. The CIA could afford it, their budget is mostly hidden in other Defense spending.

But any spending on that scale would have to pass Donald J. Trump. It wouldn't.

[Grenartia]

It further occurs to me that paying protestors in a hostile foreign nation is just absolutely boneheaded, even if you have an unlimited budget.

After all, that $1k a month is useless if it isn't spent, and what are HKers gonna spend it on? Rent, food, etc. All of which some way or another, go into the CCP's treasury.

So why would China be complaining about getting free money? Sure, the unrest and negative PR are problems, but its literally getting free money to counteract that, if its narrative is true.

That's more persuasive than the previous argument, Grenatia. The CIA could afford it, their budget is mostly hidden in other Defense spending.

If I'm not mistaken, the $15 billion figure accounts for that. But even if it isn't, lets estimate it only gets an extra 100% of its allocated budget through DoD spending. It still has to pay for everything else it does, so while $40 billion total could fund almost 2 years worth of protests, it would still be unable to afford to do literally anything else.

But any spending on that scale would have to pass Donald J. Trump. It wouldn't.

Oh, it would, if it were suggested. He's stupid enough to think it would work. We're talking about a guy who thinks money can buy anything, after all.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

That's more persuasive than the previous argument, Grenatia. The CIA could afford it, their budget is mostly hidden in other Defense spending.

If I'm not mistaken, the $15 billion figure accounts for that. But even if it isn't, lets estimate it only gets an extra 100% of its allocated budget through DoD spending. It still has to pay for everything else it does, so while $40 billion total could fund almost 2 years worth of protests, it would still be unable to afford to do literally anything else.

As one of the supposedly secret agencies, CIA can't expose its level of activity in any given year by putting it all on-budget.

There is a relatively recent avenue of attack on cryptographic programs, which measures the power drain (analogous to budget drain) of the program as it 'solves' a crypto problem. But to put it more simply, if the CIA suddenly spent $30 billion instead of $15, even a goat herder in Yemen would be wondering why.

But any spending on that scale would have to pass Donald J. Trump. It wouldn't.

Oh, it would, if it were suggested. He's stupid enough to think it would work. We're talking about a guy who thinks money can buy anything, after all.

We're talking about a guy who wants to cut every kind of foreign spending, even military.

I'm not sure, really. I just wanted to say "they wouldn't because it is foreign aid" is a stronger argument than "they wouldn't because the CIA can't afford it". And I'm not persuaded by either argument.

A much smaller investment to train and inform some of the protestors, is what I'd do if I wanted to make trouble for China.

[Novus America]

WARNING: Do not apply logic when driving CCP thought, head asplosion might result.

Literally.

Our shooting squads are very accurate.

It further occurs to me that paying protestors in a hostile foreign nation is just absolutely boneheaded, even if you have an unlimited budget.

After all, that $1k a month is useless if it isn't spent, and what are HKers gonna spend it on? Rent, food, etc. All of which some way or another, go into the CCP's treasury.

So why would China be complaining about getting free money? Sure, the unrest and negative PR are problems, but its literally getting free money to counteract that, if its narrative is true.

True,
If the CIA were in fact paying off the protesters you would be able to see and measure a increase in consumer spending, local GDP and assets.

Also there would be a increase in value of the Hong Kong Dollar.

Because even if the protesters were paid exclusively in USD, they would have to convert it to Hong Kong Dollars.

Besides if the PRC has any remotely competent police or counterintelligence at all surely it would be able to catch some of said “paid protesters” and prove they have in fact received strange payments and unexplained income.
And get some confessions and so on.

In fact I am surprised the PRC has not gone through the effort of actually framing them, dumping a few thousand into a protesters account, arresting them and then torturing them into “confessing” they knowingly got it from the CIA or something.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

It further occurs to me that paying protestors in a hostile foreign nation is just absolutely boneheaded, even if you have an unlimited budget.

After all, that $1k a month is useless if it isn't spent, and what are HKers gonna spend it on? Rent, food, etc. All of which some way or another, go into the CCP's treasury.

So why would China be complaining about getting free money? Sure, the unrest and negative PR are problems, but its literally getting free money to counteract that, if its narrative is true.

True,
If the CIA were in fact paying off the protesters you would be able to see and measure a increase in consumer spending, local GDP and assets.

Also there would be a increase in value of the Hong Kong Dollar.

Because even if the protesters were paid exclusively in USD, they would have to convert it to Hong Kong Dollars.

Besides if the PRC has any remotely competent police or counterintelligence at all surely it would be able to catch some of said “paid protesters” and prove they have in fact received strange payments and unexplained income.
And get some confessions and so on.

In fact I am surprised the PRC has not gone through the effort of actually framing them, dumping a few thousand into a protesters account, arresting them and then torturing them into “confessing” they knowingly got it from the CIA or something.

For some rather weird reason Beijing is using lots of tactics except this one. Good on them if they don’t want to taint public image even further (though it is truly destroyed in the minds of many).

[Novus America]

It further occurs to me that paying protestors in a hostile foreign nation is just absolutely boneheaded, even if you have an unlimited budget.

After all, that $1k a month is useless if it isn't spent, and what are HKers gonna spend it on? Rent, food, etc. All of which some way or another, go into the CCP's treasury.

So why would China be complaining about getting free money? Sure, the unrest and negative PR are problems, but its literally getting free money to counteract that, if its narrative is true.

That's more persuasive than the previous argument, Grenatia. The CIA could afford it, their budget is mostly hidden in other Defense spending.

But any spending on that scale would have to pass Donald J. Trump. It wouldn't.

Actually most of the CIA’s funding comes separately from the DoD.
Most US overall intelligence spending is “hidden” or included in DoD budget but through other intelligence agencies that are actually part of the DoD like the NRO, NSA and DIA. (The DIA is entirely separate from the CIA)

The CIA is not part of the DoD, unlike many other US intel agencies.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

That's more persuasive than the previous argument, Grenatia. The CIA could afford it, their budget is mostly hidden in other Defense spending.

But any spending on that scale would have to pass Donald J. Trump. It wouldn't.

Actually most of the CIA’s funding comes separately from the DoD.
Most US overall intelligence spending is “hidden” or included in DoD budget but through other intelligence agencies that are actually part of the DoD like the NRO, NSA and DIA. (The DIA is entirely separate from the CIA)

The CIA is not part of the DoD, unlike many other US intel agencies.

On a sidenote, why does the US have so many completely useless law engorcement agencies that are tasked with essentially the same things? Take for instance, we already have many major agencies who can get the job done like ATF, FBI, CIA, NSA and then we have DIA, etc. and they’re all working together in an interagency task force where one’s abilities can be covered by the other or are severely undermined because of greater capabilities on their sister agency.

Sooo, that just renders that agency relatively useless and just another one of those sitting around and pleading for relevancy in Congress budget sessions. We really need to dismantle those redundant agencies so that the capabilities of the more larger ones are expanded or funding is diverted into other causes.

[Novus America]

Meanwhile Sri Lanka is re-looking on it's debt deal with China over its major port..

In the election manifesto, Gotabaya and the SLPP had said the “Hambantota port is a national asset and was defined as a strategic asset by us previously, and the intention was never to sell or lease the port for 99 years.” The document added that, if victorious, the new government would “make it a priority to revisit the already signed agreement with the Chinese government and explore ways as to how best we could bring about a win-win for the two countries.”

Since 2017, Hambantota‘s fate has become the poster child for criticism of China’s Belt and Road Initiative and its “debt-trap” diplomacy. Even though the series of events that led to the debt-equity swap had been initiated by Mahinda Rajapaksa as early as 2007, it appears now as if the new Sri Lankan government—which includes Mahinda as prime minister—is treading a familiar path in revisiting previous obligations to China.

Link

This comes after revelations that a contract with China by Kenya stipulates it loses Mombasa port if they fail to pay back investment into a railway..

A leaked copy of the contract Kenya signed with China for the construction of the giant Mombasa-Nairobi Standard Gauge railway project is causing political shockwaves in the country.

This is amid revelations that the country could lose the port of Mombasa to the Chinese government, if the national Railway Corporation defaults in the payment of Sh227 billion owed to Exim Bank of China.

That amounts to an estimated 1.9 billion euros. The revelations are contained in the front page article of today’s Daily Nation newspaper which claims it has managed to secure a leaked copy of the contract.

Link

Any country needs to seriously revisit its financial and technological links to China beyond the abuses and suppression of freedom and people in Xinjiang, Tibet and HK.

Seems the world is waking up.

Although in these cases the concerns seem to be due to that fact the PRC loan sharking is basically their local governments pawning the country to the PRC, and not based on concerns about PRC human rights abuses elsewhere.

Still any reason to get people to wake up to the PRC threat is a good thing.

Although the PRC’s war on human rights is one threat the PRC poses. It is not the only threat.

[Novus America]

Actually most of the CIA’s funding comes separately from the DoD.
Most US overall intelligence spending is “hidden” or included in DoD budget but through other intelligence agencies that are actually part of the DoD like the NRO, NSA and DIA. (The DIA is entirely separate from the CIA)

The CIA is not part of the DoD, unlike many other US intel agencies.

On a sidenote, why does the US have so many completely useless law engorcement agencies that are tasked with essentially the same things? Take for instance, we already have many major agencies who can get the job done like ATF, FBI, CIA, NSA and then we have DIA, etc. and they’re all working together in an interagency task force where one’s abilities can be covered by the other or are severely undermined because of greater capabilities on their sister agency.

Sooo, that just renders that agency relatively useless and just another one of those sitting around and pleading for relevancy in Congress budget sessions. We really need to dismantle those redundant agencies so that the capabilities of the more larger ones are expanded or funding is diverted into other causes.

Oh there is a huge amount of redundancy and overlap in the US government.
The reason why is primarily politics, when a big public problem happens Congress creates a whole new agency to fix it, without checking if there is one doing it already. And we create new agencies far faster than we get rid of obsolete ones.
Also agencies have a tendency towards massive mission creep, trying to expand their mission especially into new fields like cybercrime and cyber security to justify a larger budget, without any regard to whether or not another agency already is better suited to do it.

But that is a discussion for another thread.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Actually most of the CIA’s funding comes separately from the DoD.
Most US overall intelligence spending is “hidden” or included in DoD budget but through other intelligence agencies that are actually part of the DoD like the NRO, NSA and DIA. (The DIA is entirely separate from the CIA)

The CIA is not part of the DoD, unlike many other US intel agencies.

On a sidenote, why does the US have so many completely useless law engorcement agencies that are tasked with essentially the same things? Take for instance, we already have many major agencies who can get the job done like ATF, FBI, CIA, NSA and then we have DIA, etc. and they’re all working together in an interagency task force where one’s abilities can be covered by the other or are severely undermined because of greater capabilities on their sister agency.

Sooo, that just renders that agency relatively useless and just another one of those sitting around and pleading for relevancy in Congress budget sessions. We really need to dismantle those redundant agencies so that the capabilities of the more larger ones are expanded or funding is diverted into other causes.

Yeah.

I don't have much to add. The Federal government has tried to reduce that redundancy (after the intelligence failure of 9/11) by bringing the agencies together under one Secretary of Homeland Security.

I can't give an opinion about whether that worked. It's all secret, y'know?

[Novus America]

On a sidenote, why does the US have so many completely useless law engorcement agencies that are tasked with essentially the same things? Take for instance, we already have many major agencies who can get the job done like ATF, FBI, CIA, NSA and then we have DIA, etc. and they’re all working together in an interagency task force where one’s abilities can be covered by the other or are severely undermined because of greater capabilities on their sister agency.

Sooo, that just renders that agency relatively useless and just another one of those sitting around and pleading for relevancy in Congress budget sessions. We really need to dismantle those redundant agencies so that the capabilities of the more larger ones are expanded or funding is diverted into other causes.

Yeah.

I don't have much to add. The Federal government has tried to reduce that redundancy (after the intelligence failure of 9/11) by bringing the agencies together under one Secretary of Homeland Security.

I can't give an opinion about whether that worked. It's all secret, y'know?

We fixed the problem of redundant and overlapping agencies that do not talk to each other by creating even more redundant and overlapping agencies that do not talk to each other.

[Bombadil]

[In fact I am surprised the PRC has not gone through the effort of actually framing them, dumping a few thousand into a protesters account, arresting them and then torturing them into “confessing” they knowingly got it from the CIA or something.

Chinese state media reported Saturday that Lee Henley, also identified as Hu Xiang and a citizen of an unidentified foreign country, was arrested for allegedly funding activities threatening China's national security including "conspiring with foreign forces to support Hong Kong riots."

Give 'em time.

[Satuga]

The only reason why I support China is because it is the only viable alternative to the United States and its policies right now. But if the EU were to be more centralized, or at least have a united EU army, I'd support the EU over China.

Seeing how everyone already told you why it's most definitely not a better alternative, I'm just gonna sit here and laugh,

[Novus America]

[In fact I am surprised the PRC has not gone through the effort of actually framing them, dumping a few thousand into a protesters account, arresting them and then torturing them into “confessing” they knowingly got it from the CIA or something.

Chinese state media reported Saturday that Lee Henley, also identified as Hu Xiang and a citizen of an unidentified foreign country, was arrested for allegedly funding activities threatening China's national security including "conspiring with foreign forces to support Hong Kong riots."

Give 'em time.

Ah, I spoke too soon.

[Novus America]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reu ... SKBN1Y80R8
So the PRC is now blaming their diplomats for not being aggressive enough for the failure of their message. Funny.

Shoot the messenger

After all it could ONLY be that they have not pushed it enough, not that it was a bad message in the first place, selling bad policies

This is the authoritarian leader trap. The PRC cannot possibly consider that the problem is Xi’s policies and the way to fix the problem is to change those policies.
Instead they are just doubling down on pushing the same flawed policies even harder.

Also funny that their solution is more angry whataboutism:
“Zhao has regularly needled the United States, with recent tweets thanking America for "squandering trillions of dollars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria" and highlighting racism in Washington, DC.”
Sure it is true we were stupid to squander that money.

But that does not have anything to do the PRC’s Hong Kong policies.
That does not make their case any stronger.

Finally though how are they allowed to be on Twitter? Twitter is banned in the PRC, so we should ban the PRC from using it until they allow it to be used there.

Twitter should have done so already. Not morally because they do not care about that, but because it is a logical business decision.
They should tell the PRC that they cannot use Twitter until they allow it.

But because Twitter will not do the right thing from both a moral, political And finance perspective the government should step in.

The PRC and all PRC owned companies and employees should be banned from all US social media until they unblock US social media in the PRC.

[Satuga]

What's that? The CCP is refusing to take the blame that they're a shitty political party? Wow color me surprised

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

Also funny that their solution is more angry whataboutism:
“Zhao has regularly needled the United States, with recent tweets thanking America for "squandering trillions of dollars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria" and highlighting racism in Washington, DC.”
Sure it is true we were stupid to squander that money.

*meanwhile the Chinese government endorses blackface, mass incarcerates Uighurs based on their ethnicity/religion, and has has high ranking officials utter things that make even trump downright sound like an sjw*

[North German Realm]

Also funny that their solution is more angry whataboutism:
“Zhao has regularly needled the United States, with recent tweets thanking America for "squandering trillions of dollars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria" and highlighting racism in Washington, DC.”
Sure it is true we were stupid to squander that money.

*meanwhile the Chinese government endorses blackface, mass incarcerates Uighurs based on their ethnicity/religion, and has has high ranking officials utter things that make even trump downright sound like an sjw*

Honestly the fact Trump is not the most ridiculous politician in the world at this point is about twenty hundred times more disappointing and embarrassing than the fact Trump got elected in the first place.

[Aureumterra]

Yes, but they are a minority. Most their supporters here are only in it for the money, not genuine ideological affinity. Especially as it is not clear what their ideology is beyond the accumulation of money and power.

The only reason why I support China is because it is the only viable alternative to the United States and its policies right now. But if the EU were to be more centralized, or at least have a united EU army, I'd support the EU over China.

How much are you getting payed?

[Rojava Free State]

Yes, but they are a minority. Most their supporters here are only in it for the money, not genuine ideological affinity. Especially as it is not clear what their ideology is beyond the accumulation of money and power.

The only reason why I support China is because it is the only viable alternative to the United States and its policies right now. But if the EU were to be more centralized, or at least have a united EU army, I'd support the EU over China.

The Chinese government is far worse than the American one. They've killed literally over 40 million people, fuck them

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

Yes, but they are a minority. Most their supporters here are only in it for the money, not genuine ideological affinity. Especially as it is not clear what their ideology is beyond the accumulation of money and power.

The only reason why I support China is because it is the only viable alternative to the United States and its policies right now. But if the EU were to be more centralized, or at least have a united EU army, I'd support the EU over China.

What part of China’s demonstrated abuses of human rights, outright hypocrisy and violation of clear international law (which it helps draft/govern/enforce) and its own central tenets make it a viable alternative to the US, who may have some of those problems, but at the least, they’re attempting to fix it unlike China who is horribly failing in sweeping this under the rug?

Do we have to reiterate what has simply been displayed lots of times in this thread to countless users of why China is undeserving of these powers?

[Hong Kong People]

*meanwhile the Chinese government endorses blackface, mass incarcerates Uighurs based on their ethnicity/religion, and has has high ranking officials utter things that make even trump downright sound like an sjw*

Honestly the fact Trump is not the most ridiculous politician in the world at this point is about twenty hundred times more disappointing and embarrassing than the fact Trump got elected in the first place.

At least Trump has the guts to stand up to China.Without him and the trade war, China will continue to export its totalitarian style of governance to all over the world without any fear. I don't see that Angela Merkel has the same bravery and determination as Trump when it comes to dealing with China.All she knows is to appease China.She even tells Europe not to regard China as a threat.I find it even more ridiculous than Trump not being called the most ridiculous politician in the world.

[Phoenicaea]

^inept, in debt tycoon is first partner of affairs with china

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

Honestly the fact Trump is not the most ridiculous politician in the world at this point is about twenty hundred times more disappointing and embarrassing than the fact Trump got elected in the first place.

At least Trump has the guts to stand up to China.Without him and the trade war, China will continue to export its totalitarian style of governance to all over the world without any fear. I don't see that Angela Merkel has the same bravery and determination as Trump when it comes to dealing with China.All she knows is to appease China.She even tells Europe not to regard China as a threat.I find it even more ridiculous than Trump not being called the most ridiculous politician in the world.

Given that China can't possibly militarily invade Europe since they are an entire continent apart, its no surprise Merkel doesn't regard China as an imminent threat right now, since unlike Russia, they don't even border any European country. Although the PRC's economic sway should be curtailed by any means neccessary, preferably through a total UN-wide embargo.

[Novus America]

At least Trump has the guts to stand up to China.Without him and the trade war, China will continue to export its totalitarian style of governance to all over the world without any fear. I don't see that Angela Merkel has the same bravery and determination as Trump when it comes to dealing with China.All she knows is to appease China.She even tells Europe not to regard China as a threat.I find it even more ridiculous than Trump not being called the most ridiculous politician in the world.

Given that China can't possibly militarily invade Europe since they are an entire continent apart, its no surprise Merkel doesn't regard China as an imminent threat right now, since unlike Russia, they don't even border any European country. Although the PRC's economic sway should be curtailed by any means neccessary IMHO.

The thing is she is going weak on Russia too. Her problem is a deep seated problem, she has a deeply naive view of the world. Views BOTH Xi and Putin as partners, not adversaries.

If the EU would build up its military forces enough to deter Russia on their own so we can better focus on the PRC that would be great. But Merkel is fighting efforts to strengthen European military rebuilding with her opposition to real improvements in defense spending.

If Germany rebuilt its military to 1980 West Germany alone levels (which after reuniting would not be that hard given its much larger population and economy) it could pretty much neutralize the Russian threat on its own.

But she goes for the Molotov Ribbentrop Pipeline (aka Nord Stream II instead).