Hong Kong

[Dooom35796821595]

I wonder how many people will be put to death after China suffered this humiliation?

They want people to be cheerful even if they have to shoot them.

Sounds familiar. I wonder if they ask them “Why so serious” before killing them.

[Infected Mushroom]

It’s not a logical fallacy

If X happens worldwide and elsewhere it’s casually assumed to be non governmental, then in the absence of proof it would be prejudicial to assume government involvement for just one (or a select group) of countries

1: A pointing out the wrongdoing of B while C says "well D did bad stuff too" is textbook whataboutism. We're talking about the wrongs of China, not any other country.
2: Countries have a reputation of citizen treatment, and evidence for and against said treatment. The US does not disappear its own citizens. China does. There is evidence for that.

That isn’t the logical structure of my argument

Whataboutism:
“China making citizens disappear is fine because this is done by governments worldwide.”

My statement:
“There’s no reason to assume China makes people disappear without proof. People disappear from all countries and we don’t assume government involvement in the absence of proof. The same benefit of the doubt should be extended.”

[New haven america]

I’m inclined to accept China’s statement that it’s to combat extremism and counter terrorism.

An excuse used by authoritarian governments everywhere to clamp down on dissent.

Or run a massive organ harvesting industry.

[Bombadil]

Meanwhile, in the happy floaty unicorn world of China media..

A festive atmosphere enveloped Hong Kong on Monday as people from different backgrounds joined various activities to celebrate the anniversary.

The Greater Bay Festival, a three-day gala with high-tech features and music that started on Saturday, had attracted more than 180,000 people as of noon on Monday, according to organizers. Celebrators pieced out "I love HK" characters to show their love for the city.

Around 15,000 visitors, mostly teenagers and children, enjoyed a field day at the People's Liberation Army Hong Kong Garrison, with a rare taste of military exercises and the daily lives of those in uniform.

Businesspeople and young entrepreneurs are upbeat on Hong Kong's future, saying the city will continue to enjoy benefits brought by national development, especially with the construction of the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area.

Actually that Greater Bay Festival was largely deserted and closed early from lack of activity.

A picture reminiscent of Trump's inauguration

I wonder how many people will be put to death after China suffered this humiliation?

I don't think it's an issue to be fair, no one in China specifically is responsible for this mess. Carrie Lam simply handled it extraordinarily badly by trying to rush it through without a public consultation and then arrogantly refusing to even countenance the people's concerns expressed in the original 1M person march.

Then she was doubly stupid in allowing the second protest to become violent and then conceding due to that violence.

Now a good amount of people think the only way to get action is through violence. If she'd just listened the first time, withdrawn the bill for further consideration she wouldn't be in this mess of her own making.

[Dooom35796821595]

1: A pointing out the wrongdoing of B while C says "well D did bad stuff too" is textbook whataboutism. We're talking about the wrongs of China, not any other country.
2: Countries have a reputation of citizen treatment, and evidence for and against said treatment. The US does not disappear its own citizens. China does. There is evidence for that.

That isn’t the logical structure of my argument

Whataboutism:
“China making citizens disappear is fine because this is done by governments worldwide.”

My statement:
“There’s no reason to assume China makes people disappear without proof. People disappear from all countries and we don’t assume government involvement in the absence of proof. The same benefit of the doubt should be extended.”

‘absence of proof’? Did you read the BBC article I posted? It even has satellite photos.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/id ... dden_camps

Here it is again.

[Nova Cyberia]

The ruthless efficiency of the PRC is fascinating... in a horrifying kind of way.

I’ve commented on that before:

viewtopic.php?p=35731214#p35731214
viewtopic.php?p=35731224#p35731224

Everyone's so focused on Russia these days, yet China makes Russia look quaint.

[Infected Mushroom]

That isn’t the logical structure of my argument

Whataboutism:
“China making citizens disappear is fine because this is done by governments worldwide.”

My statement:
“There’s no reason to assume China makes people disappear without proof. People disappear from all countries and we don’t assume government involvement in the absence of proof. The same benefit of the doubt should be extended.”

‘absence of proof’? Did you read the BBC article I posted? It even has satellite photos.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/id ... dden_camps

Here it is again.

Nothing about Hong Kong?

[Dooom35796821595]

‘absence of proof’? Did you read the BBC article I posted? It even has satellite photos.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/id ... dden_camps

Here it is again.

Nothing about Hong Kong?

Evidence the Chinese government disappears citizens to concentration camps, why wouldn’t they do it to HK dissidents?

[Galloism]

‘absence of proof’? Did you read the BBC article I posted? It even has satellite photos.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/id ... dden_camps

Here it is again.

Nothing about Hong Kong?

Here’s something about Hong Kong:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... c7aa8e6564

Hope you really liked Cersei Lannister. She’s your queen now.

[Nova Cyberia]

Nothing about Hong Kong?

Evidence the Chinese government disappears citizens to concentration camps, why wouldn’t they do it to HK dissidents?

You're wasting your time. IM fetishizes dictatorships. Nothing will make him admit that the PRC has committed grotesque crimes against its people.

[New haven america]

Nothing about Hong Kong?

Evidence the Chinese government disappears citizens to concentration camps, why wouldn’t they do it to HK dissidents?

Because he's grasping at straws and needs to find some way to defend the authoritarian and genocidal Chinese government.

Like admitting he's ok with concentration/death camps and genocide as long as it's done for the safety of the country.

[Infected Mushroom]

Nothing about Hong Kong?

Evidence the Chinese government disappears citizens to concentration camps, why wouldn’t they do it to HK dissidents?

There isn’t a terrorism/extremism threat relevant to Hong Kong

[Galloism]

Evidence the Chinese government disappears citizens to concentration camps, why wouldn’t they do it to HK dissidents?

Because he's grasping at straws and needs to find some way to defend the authoritarian and genocidal Chinese government.

Like admitting he's ok with concentration/death camps and genocide as long as it's done for the safety of the country.

Let’s not forget the organ harvesting.

[Dooom35796821595]

Evidence the Chinese government disappears citizens to concentration camps, why wouldn’t they do it to HK dissidents?

There isn’t a terrorism/extremism threat relevant to Hong Kong

Didn’t you say that the protesters vandalising government buildings in HK were traitors? Surely treason is worse then terrorisim or extremism?

[Infected Mushroom]

Nothing about Hong Kong?

Here’s something about Hong Kong:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... c7aa8e6564

Hope you really liked Cersei Lannister. She’s your queen now.

Do we know for sure they were kidnapped by mainland agents?

The article just assumes it, no one was ever convicted of “kidnapping”

A televised confession may be motivated by genuine repentance

Also, correlation is not the same as causation; sometimes people with political troubles with the PRC just conveniently and coincidentally vanish

Pure luck and unluck is evenly distributed as they say and sometimes things happen

[Nakena]

Here’s something about Hong Kong:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... c7aa8e6564

Hope you really liked Cersei Lannister. She’s your queen now.

Do we know for sure they were kidnapped by mainland agents?

The article just assumes it, no one was ever convicted of “kidnapping”

A televised confession may be motivated by genuine repentance

Also, correlation is not the same as causation; sometimes people with political troubles with the PRC just conveniently and coincidentally vanish

Pure luck and unluck is evenly distributed as they say and sometimes things happen

If you had to pick would you choose the CCP or the KMT?

[Infected Mushroom]

Do we know for sure they were kidnapped by mainland agents?

The article just assumes it, no one was ever convicted of “kidnapping”

A televised confession may be motivated by genuine repentance

Also, correlation is not the same as causation; sometimes people with political troubles with the PRC just conveniently and coincidentally vanish

Pure luck and unluck is evenly distributed as they say and sometimes things happen

If you had to pick would you choose the CCP or the KMT?

KMT

Unfortunately they did not win

[Galloism]

Also, correlation is not the same as causation; sometimes people with political troubles with the PRC just conveniently and coincidentally vanish

Have you ever heard the saying “once is a coincidence, twice is a pattern, three times is enemy action?”

Well, six times is an operation.

In any case, there’s multiple eyewitnesses to China’s secret police kidnapping people. It’s cited in the article.

Stick your fingers in your ears if you want. Hope you liked Cersei Lannister - you’re in her world now.

[Infected Mushroom]

Also, correlation is not the same as causation; sometimes people with political troubles with the PRC just conveniently and coincidentally vanish

Have you ever heard the saying “once is a coincidence, twice is a pattern, three times is enemy action?”

Well, six times is an operation.

In any case, there’s multiple eyewitnesses to China’s secret police kidnapping people. It’s cited in the article.

Stick your fingers in your ears if you want. Hope you liked Cersei Lannister - you’re in her world now.

Are you saying that the CCP is House Lannister?

[Bombadil]

Ignoring IMs wilful denial for a moment..

This really does put China in a bind, I remember there used to be an adage that 'as long as Taiwan's an issue then HK will be safe'. This really puts a dent in that concept and the idea that 'one country, two systems' can be applied to Taiwan is being thoroughly rejected by Taiwan. This is a policy that Xi Jinping himself has put his weight behind.

“The principles of ‘peaceful reunification’ and ‘one country, two systems’ are the best approach to realizing national reunification … The social system and way of life in Taiwan will be fully respected, and the private property, religious beliefs and legitimate rights and interests of Taiwan compatriots will be fully protected after peaceful reunification is realized … We make no promise to renounce the use of force and reserve the option of taking all necessary means.”

Oddly enough the Kuomintang in Taiwan is generally pro-China, odd given their history but..

On June 17, the four parties in the parliament issued a joint statement. One paragraph read: “The legislature expresses support for the citizens of Hong Kong in their pursuit of democracy and freedom. It urges the Hong Kong government to withdraw the extradition bill.”

President Tsai said that the massive protests in Hong Kong had proved that the “one country, two systems” principle was absolutely not feasible.

The intensity of opinion in Taiwan has forced her likely opponent in the January election, Kaohsiung Mayor Han Kuo-yu of the Kuomintang, to say that, if elected president, he would not pursue “one country, two systems”.

And it's given a massive boost to the party traditionally against reunification with Beijing.

First, they virtually ensure the re-election next January of President Tsai Ing-wen of the Democratic Progressive Party, who was only eight months ago facing political oblivion.

Good job Carrie Lam!

The island’s boisterous news weeklies reflect the public mood. In its latest issue, Today Weekly (今周刊) has a red front page with black typeface. “The people of Taiwan must remember this lesson. Hong Kong is being forced to die. Freedom of speech is limited. The rule of law is being shaken. Its status as a financial center is uncertain.”

In a long article, Today Weekly traces the history of events since the Joint Declaration in 1984. “From hope to hopelessness, ‘the one country, two systems’ experiment after 22 years has almost collapsed,” reads the headline.

[Galloism]

Have you ever heard the saying “once is a coincidence, twice is a pattern, three times is enemy action?”

Well, six times is an operation.

In any case, there’s multiple eyewitnesses to China’s secret police kidnapping people. It’s cited in the article.

Stick your fingers in your ears if you want. Hope you liked Cersei Lannister - you’re in her world now.

Are you saying that the CCP is House Lannister?

I’m saying when you live under despots with no qualms at all, things don’t go so well for you, the common person.

[Bombadil]

It's revised interest in this painting.. Beijing 2008.. how all this plays out will be interesting to watch I guess, though I'm not too sure anymore I want to be watching from HK.

Link

Assuming the play of the game requires that the loser of each hand removes pieces of clothing, if China loses, she will be in the same state as Russia (similar to when the USSR dissolved). If America loses, she will also be in the same state as Russia.

If Russia loses, she loses all that is left. Russia acts to be disinterested and unengaged, but in passing tiles to China, is establishing a secret alliance. Japan has already lost everything, and will be out of the game if she loses again.

America may look well-positioned, but is in much danger. If she loses this round, she will give up her position as THE world power. Russia is playing both sides, much like when China was de-occupied, she leaned towards the USSR and then towards America; as she did not have the ability to survive on her own, she had to weave between both sides in order to survive and develop.

There are too many of China’s tiles that we cannot see. Perhaps suggesting that China has several hidden aces.

America appears confident, and is glancing at Taiwan, perhaps trying to read something in Taiwan’s face. Perhaps what she sees going on between Russia and China.

Taiwan stares coldly at the game, longing to participate but constrained only to observe. She sees everything that the players are doing, and understands the shifting alliances. But she doesn’t have the means or permission to join the game, she isn’t even given the right to speak. Even if she has a dearth of complaints, she cannot voice it to anyone, all she can do is to be a good page girl, and bring fresh fruit to the victor.

The positions of power are with China and America. But, while America appears dominant, they are, after all, playing Chinese Mahjong, not Western Poker. In the end, playing by the rules of China’s game, how much chance at victory does America really have?

[Pasong Tirad]

Carrie Lam and Beijing handing Tsai her election victory? I love irony.

[Infected Mushroom]

Carrie Lam and Beijing handing Tsai her election victory? I love irony.

Many Taiwanese channels are convinced the KMT can still win

It’s far from decided

Tsai is pretty unpopular and the KMT has some pretty strong candidates

The Hong Kong events definitely give the Greens a few points though

[Bombadil]

Carrie Lam and Beijing handing Tsai her election victory? I love irony.

Many Taiwanese channels are convinced the KMT can still win

It’s far from decided

Tsai is pretty unpopular and the KMT has some pretty strong candidates

The Hong Kong events definitely give the Greens a few points though

Yeah well..

The intensity of opinion in Taiwan has forced her likely opponent in the January election, Kaohsiung Mayor Han Kuo-yu of the Kuomintang, to say that, if elected president, he would not pursue “one country, two systems”.