Hong Kong

[Novus America]

The vast majority of HKers continue to follow HK law; they have stayed loyal. That should show where the people stand.

Out of 7.5 million HKers, the majority show where they stand by following the law and not protesting.

Implying the protestors are not loyal. Absolutely disgusting. If anyone is disloyal, to Hong Kong and to humanity, it is the HK government and police.

Actually both are loyal. The Protesters loyal to Hong Kong. The government loyal to Beijing.
Given Beijing seeks to destroy the separate identity of Hong Kong and destroy its separate culture and freedoms, to make it just a subservient slave to Xi’s megalomania, loyalty to one is mutually exclusive with loyalty to the other.

[Heloin]

Implying the protestors are not loyal. Absolutely disgusting. If anyone is disloyal, to Hong Kong and to humanity, it is the HK government and police.

Actually both are loyal. The Protesters loyal to Hong Kong. The government loyal to Beijing.
Given Beijing seeks to destroy the separate identity of Hong Kong and destroy its separate culture and freedoms, to make it just a subservient slave to Xi’s megalomania, loyalty to one is mutually exclusive with loyalty to the other.

Loyalty to a boot stamping on someone's face is a kind of loyal one would suppose.

[Tuthina]

Implying the protestors are not loyal. Absolutely disgusting. If anyone is disloyal, to Hong Kong and to humanity, it is the HK government and police.

Actually both are loyal. The Protesters loyal to Hong Kong. The government loyal to Beijing.
Given Beijing seeks to destroy the separate identity of Hong Kong and destroy its separate culture and freedoms, to make it just a subservient slave to Xi’s megalomania, loyalty to one is mutually exclusive with loyalty to the other.

I like to consider myself loyal, if to anything at all, to humanity as a whole, and that the struggle for a future where humanity is free from oppression and suffering should be something humanity as a whole aspire for, ultimately relegating the current authoritarian regimes in the world, including PRC and its SAR governments, to the rubbish bin of history. Still, the word "loyalty" doesn't really sit well to me, but that's probably just the radical internationalist in me speaking.

[Novus America]

Actually both are loyal. The Protesters loyal to Hong Kong. The government loyal to Beijing.
Given Beijing seeks to destroy the separate identity of Hong Kong and destroy its separate culture and freedoms, to make it just a subservient slave to Xi’s megalomania, loyalty to one is mutually exclusive with loyalty to the other.

Loyalty to a boot stamping on someone's face is a kind of loyal one would suppose.

Indeed it is. Loyalty is not necessarily a virtue.
Loyalty to an evil regime one of the worst vices.

[Novus America]

Actually both are loyal. The Protesters loyal to Hong Kong. The government loyal to Beijing.
Given Beijing seeks to destroy the separate identity of Hong Kong and destroy its separate culture and freedoms, to make it just a subservient slave to Xi’s megalomania, loyalty to one is mutually exclusive with loyalty to the other.

I like to consider myself loyal, if to anything at all, to humanity as a whole, and that the struggle for a future where humanity is free from oppression and suffering should be something humanity as a whole aspire for, ultimately relegating the current authoritarian regimes in the world, including PRC and its SAR governments, to the rubbish bin of history. Still, the word "loyalty" doesn't really sit well to me, but that's probably just the radical internationalist in me speaking.

Fair enough. Loyalty as a term concerns me as well because its implication of unquestioning loyalty. I am loyal to no one man, and only loyal to the aspects of something that are good, and willing to criticize the bad.

But in the end you are loyal to the people, and indeed disloyal to Xi. Their is no virtue, only vice in loyalty to a sociopathic maniac.

And you cannot be loyal to the people of Hong Kong and Xi, because Xi despises Hong Kong’s democratic and freedom supporting identity.

[Plzen]

People are flawed, and human authorities therefore imperfect.

Loyalty to an ideal is more resilient than loyalty to any particular incarnation of that ideal.

[Tuthina]

I like to consider myself loyal, if to anything at all, to humanity as a whole, and that the struggle for a future where humanity is free from oppression and suffering should be something humanity as a whole aspire for, ultimately relegating the current authoritarian regimes in the world, including PRC and its SAR governments, to the rubbish bin of history. Still, the word "loyalty" doesn't really sit well to me, but that's probably just the radical internationalist in me speaking.

Fair enough. Loyalty concerns me because its implication of unquestioning loyalty. I am loyal to no one man, and only loyal to the aspects of something that are good.

But in the end you are loyal to the people, and indeed disloyal to Xi. Their is no virtue, only vice in loyalty to a sociopathic maniac.

Yeah, I guess that's a pretty good way to sum up my uneasy feelings about that word. I like to think myself as a rational being, whose decisions are based on my own values on a case-by-case basis, instead of deciding that I'll be loyal to any particular group and sticking to it.

That said, I fully agree with your thoughts over the vice that is loyalty to PRC and the HKSAR government under it. Curiously enough, the day after the new police commissioner assumed his post, the motto of Hong Kong police changes from something along the line of "serving Hong Kong with pride" to "loyalty and valiance".

[Novus America]

People are flawed, and human authorities therefore imperfect.

Loyalty to an ideal is more resilient than loyalty to any particular incarnation of that ideal.

Indeed. Why be loyal to a flawed individual who has no loyalty to you?

Why not be loyal to doing what is right, regardless of what those in power tell you to obey?

[Satuga]

Indeed. Why be loyal to a flawed individual who has no loyalty to you?

Why not be loyal to doing what is right, regardless of what those in power tell you to obey?

This opinion is...situational. It all depends on what he individual sees as "right" While I agree with the protesters fighting against their government. I don't agree with let's say ISIS, who believe themselves to be right. SO the whole "Be loyal to doing what is right, regardless of those in power saying you shouldn't" Applies in certain situations, but not others.

[Novus America]

Indeed. Why be loyal to a flawed individual who has no loyalty to you?

Why not be loyal to doing what is right, regardless of what those in power tell you to obey?

This opinion is...situational. It all depends on what he individual sees as "right" While I agree with the protesters fighting against their government. I don't agree with let's say ISIS, who believe themselves to be right. SO the whole "Be loyal to doing what is right, regardless of those in power saying you shouldn't" Applies in certain situations, but not others.

Well true. Loyalty to an idea of what is right, is only valuable to the degree of what you think is right is actually right. And we might disagree as to what is right.
Loyalty as to what is right does not give you a right to run roughshod over everyone else.

And you must always be willing as a result to critically review your ideas of what is right, and yes indeed change them if they are proving to be harmful rather than helpful.

Although in the case of ISIS, ISIS worked on uncritical obedience to a hierarchy in power, not critical self discovery. It was a cult of personality. The members of ISIS were told what is right, not allowed to make their own determinations and question if what they were told was right, was indeed right. Like the CCP.

One can have strong views of what is right and wrong without being a unquestioning fanatic.

The most important, and hardest thing to realize is rejecting blind loyalty to any one man also means rejecting blind loyalty to yourself and what you believe.

Blind loyalty is always a vice, even loyalty to what is right must always be based on a continual appraisal of what you believe is right, and an ability to admit you can be, and often are wrong.

[Dogmeat]

The police numbers are flat out lies, you're a liar if you support them.


Because that number 183,000 is almost certainly much, much closer to 800,000. And no one made the claim of 4,000,000 on the street at once, but pretending at this point that the protesters don't have a majority of support in Hong Kong is dishonest.

There's 7.5 million people in HK yet the protestors (who number around 183,000 at this point, to be fair, maybe a few thousands more) claim to represent the people of HK.

So I'd like their supporters to show me evidence of where these 3-4 million hidden protestors are

If they really are a majority, where's the 50%+?

My understanding is that they don't exist

Overwhelmingly voting against Beijing, apparently.

Don't think we've forgotten how wrong you've been about absolutely everything. Any claim you make to be right this time has to be viewed in that context. The context in which you are totally divorced from reality.

I don't know why you bother. Anyone who has been paying attention knows what you're saying is wrong.

[Satuga]

-snip-

Yeah that makes sense, they are being conditioned into thinking what they are doing is right, but after years of indoctrination and brainwashing, where is the distinction between what they believe and what they are forced to believe. If someone drills something into your head for long enough you will start believing it to be true.

[Plzen]

Yeah that makes sense, they are being conditioned into thinking what they are doing is right, but after years of indoctrination and brainwashing, where is the distinction between what they believe and what they are forced to believe. If someone drills something into your head for long enough you will start believing it to be true.

Is that not true for any belief, though? People around the world have overwhelmingly more liberal and progressive ideals than their ancestors did 500 years ago. Since we haven't gotten more genetically predisposed towards liberalism, clearly the difference must be environmental. Developed democracies are inundated with a permeating social attitude and cultural/artistic products that promote continued support towards democratic ideals.

People form their beliefs based on their experiences; this is as true for the most uncompromising anarchist as it is for the staunch authoritarian. "Brainwashing" is a very dangerous word to use. If you're familiar with the historical development of socialism, consider how much the concept of false consciousness contributed towards the autocratic bent of mainstream Marxist-Leninist thought in the 20th Century.

[Novus America]

-snip-

Yeah that makes sense, they are being conditioned into thinking what they are doing is right, but after years of indoctrination and brainwashing, where is the distinction between what they believe and what they are forced to believe. If someone drills something into your head for long enough you will start believing it to be true.

Indeed, which is why you must be able to critically question, appraise, elucidate and improve on what you believe is right, and always acknowledge you may be wrong, and in fact sometimes are wrong.
If you can explain why you believe something, what it is based on and how it logically flows from what it is based on rather than “because X party, text, person says so” it is less likely it is just something you were indoctrinated to believe.

And you must be able constantly question your own beliefs, not be offended when they are challenged, and actually want people to challenge your beliefs. You can critically appraise your beliefs if you do not allow others to challenge them.

You are right that this is extremely difficult to do well. That none of us has perfected this.
But it is still something we must always try to do, and do better.

It is indeed more aspirational, none of us has perfected this, but if we stop trying to do it we have become no better than any other fanatic or blind follower.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

I doubt that, considering the police's poor track record of suing people related to the protests, to the point that they have been criticised by the court multiple times for everything from being late to the court, charging too many people at once and overloading the courts, to more egregious cases like faulty documents that can't get the suspects' name right, to not providing documents at all.

But yeah, I guess like the police you support, your reasoning is also based on the same irrefutable idea of "because I say so". I mean, considering that in this thread alone, you've been saying that you're out of here "for good" several times.

No my reasoning is that, if you're sending money to the protestors, then it follows logically (since many of the protestors are doing illegal things), that there's a substantial probability/probable cause that your money will end up financing criminal activity to at least a degree

hence the police are reasonable when they say, "well we're going to freeze/seize it"

after all, the protestors need money to make gas masks, bombs, and other weapons... so it is a vital part of law and order to try and target the financing and its something I would support

it makes sense

Most of them aren’t, and if they are, that’s the police’s excuse for handing out arrests to them.

[Tuthina]

No my reasoning is that, if you're sending money to the protestors, then it follows logically (since many of the protestors are doing illegal things), that there's a substantial probability/probable cause that your money will end up financing criminal activity to at least a degree

hence the police are reasonable when they say, "well we're going to freeze/seize it"

after all, the protestors need money to make gas masks, bombs, and other weapons... so it is a vital part of law and order to try and target the financing and its something I would support

it makes sense

Most of them aren’t, and if they are, that’s the police’s excuse for handing out arrests to them.

The money is also meant to be predominantly for legal assistance and is the main reason why it is such a big sum (lawyers are expensive, after all). I mean, we know IM is not exactly being someone who knows how things are on the ground, so to speak, but as it turns out, pretty much all equipment used by the protesters are not that expensive, all things considered. A full set of gas mask can be bought with less than $60 USD on Amazon, and the main materials for petrol bomb, the ever-favourite target of detractors, come from convenience stores and hardware stores alike (it's pretty common for hardware stores to sell thinner and other organic solvents in used beer bottles, for some reasons). One thing that most detractors seem to not understand is that, well, people in Hong Kong have money, if little else, so they don't really need some kind of conspiracy to buy things that, in total, probably cost less than the latest triple-A game title at launch.

Of course, it doesn't really matter, ultimately, since we all know the government isn't going to only prosecute the more militant protesters, but everyone who is against it in any way, so you're on the hit list whether you're in the frontline, in the back, manning first aid stations, or even just someone who voice support for the protest during work. In fact, the Education Bureau (who I technically work for) has been pressuring schools from deviating from the government's stance, so anyone who gets arrested for protest-related incidents (even if they're not formally charged) can potentially get fired, all the while police officers and drivers who broke the law by attempting to (and in the latter's case, succeeding in) running over people get off scot-free, if not getting donations from pro-government groups that are in no way bribes to encourage them.

[Isles of Metanoia]

I'm gonna travel to HK next year. Hopefully the protests continue, that would be fun.

[Infected Mushroom]

I’ve found another great article that shows that Lam is the right leader.

President Xi Jinping praised the Chief Executive Carrie Lam on Thursday for showing courage and undertaking during their second meeting in a week. Xi met Lam and several members of her cabinet on day two of his visit to Macau.

It comes comes just three days after their talks in Beijing during the Chief Executive's duty visit.

In his latest comment, Xi said the central government fully affirms Lam's display of courage and her acceptance of her responsibilities during this extraordinary time.

He also said Beijing fully supports her work plans raised during her duty visit, and hopes every department under the SAR government will work together under her leadership to get their work done for Hong Kong.

Lam, meanwhile, thanked the President Xi for meeting her. She said she would certainly lead the government in putting an end to violence and restore order in the city.

It’s good to see the Chinese continue to support the Hong Kong government. This really does show that China doesn’t abandon its local governments in times of need. I am very touched. There is no doubt Hong Kong is in crisis but does China throw its regional government under a bus? No. Not in the least.

There really is a 2 way cooperation between regional and national government.

I think it’s something to emulate.

[Satuga]

I’ve found another great article that shows that Lam is the right leader.

It’s good to see the Chinese continue to support the Hong Kong government. This really does show that China doesn’t abandon its local governments in times of need. I am very touched. There is no doubt Hong Kong is in crisis but does China throw its regional government under a bus? No. Not in the least.

There really is a 2 way cooperation between regional and national government.

I think it’s something to emulate.

So basically Lam is praised by the man the people of HK are protesting against because she would rather support him a dictator vs her actual citizenry, and you think this shows why she's a great leader? Lmao.

[The New California Republic]

I’ve found another great article that shows that Lam is the right leader.

President Xi Jinping praised the Chief Executive Carrie Lam on Thursday for showing courage and undertaking during their second meeting in a week. Xi met Lam and several members of her cabinet on day two of his visit to Macau.

It comes comes just three days after their talks in Beijing during the Chief Executive's duty visit.

In his latest comment, Xi said the central government fully affirms Lam's display of courage and her acceptance of her responsibilities during this extraordinary time.

He also said Beijing fully supports her work plans raised during her duty visit, and hopes every department under the SAR government will work together under her leadership to get their work done for Hong Kong.

Lam, meanwhile, thanked the President Xi for meeting her. She said she would certainly lead the government in putting an end to violence and restore order in the city.

It’s good to see the Chinese continue to support the Hong Kong government. This really does show that China doesn’t abandon its local governments in times of need. I am very touched. There is no doubt Hong Kong is in crisis but does China throw its regional government under a bus? No. Not in the least.

There really is a 2 way cooperation between regional and national government.

I think it’s something to emulate.

You know what isn't good? You know, really really not good? Your shilling for the CPC, that's what. It is honestly just nauseating by this point.

[Necroghastia]

I’ve found another great article that shows that Lam is the right leader.

President Xi Jinping praised the Chief Executive Carrie Lam on Thursday for showing courage and undertaking during their second meeting in a week. Xi met Lam and several members of her cabinet on day two of his visit to Macau.

It comes comes just three days after their talks in Beijing during the Chief Executive's duty visit.

In his latest comment, Xi said the central government fully affirms Lam's display of courage and her acceptance of her responsibilities during this extraordinary time.

He also said Beijing fully supports her work plans raised during her duty visit, and hopes every department under the SAR government will work together under her leadership to get their work done for Hong Kong.

Lam, meanwhile, thanked the President Xi for meeting her. She said she would certainly lead the government in putting an end to violence and restore order in the city.

It’s good to see the Chinese continue to support the Hong Kong government. This really does show that China doesn’t abandon its local governments in times of need. I am very touched. There is no doubt Hong Kong is in crisis but does China throw its regional government under a bus? No. Not in the least.

There really is a 2 way cooperation between regional and national government.

I think it’s something to emulate.

She's good because a whiny as all get-out dictator praises her? No shit, of course he's not going to abandon his fucking puppet. That's what puppets are for.

[Novus America]

I’ve found another great article that shows that Lam is the right leader.

It’s good to see the Chinese continue to support the Hong Kong government. This really does show that China doesn’t abandon its local governments in times of need. I am very touched. There is no doubt Hong Kong is in crisis but does China throw its regional government under a bus? No. Not in the least.

There really is a 2 way cooperation between regional and national government.

I think it’s something to emulate.

So basically Lam is praised by the man the people of HK are protesting against because she would rather support him a dictator vs her actual citizenry, and you think this shows why she's a great leader? Lmao.

Remember IM thought Cersei in Game of Thrones was the “right” leader...
As wacky as his views are they are bizarrely consistent in their own way.

Though it should be noted someone good in his view is probably the opossum of good for everyone else here.

[Mzeusia]

I’ve found another great article that shows that Lam is the right leader.

President Xi Jinping praised the Chief Executive Carrie Lam on Thursday for showing courage and undertaking during their second meeting in a week. Xi met Lam and several members of her cabinet on day two of his visit to Macau.

It comes comes just three days after their talks in Beijing during the Chief Executive's duty visit.

In his latest comment, Xi said the central government fully affirms Lam's display of courage and her acceptance of her responsibilities during this extraordinary time.

He also said Beijing fully supports her work plans raised during her duty visit, and hopes every department under the SAR government will work together under her leadership to get their work done for Hong Kong.

Lam, meanwhile, thanked the President Xi for meeting her. She said she would certainly lead the government in putting an end to violence and restore order in the city.

It’s good to see the Chinese continue to support the Hong Kong government. This really does show that China doesn’t abandon its local governments in times of need. I am very touched. There is no doubt Hong Kong is in crisis but does China throw its regional government under a bus? No. Not in the least.

There really is a 2 way cooperation between regional and national government.

I think it’s something to emulate.

The article does not show that Lam is the right leader at all. It shows that someone praised another person. When it's Xi Jingping praising anyone, that's not a good sign. This praise shows Lam to be a puppet of China and someone who is more than happy to carry out the repressive will of the Chinese government. It's a safe bet that anyone Xi Jingping praises is only acting in the Chinese governments' best interests. I bet Lam will be happy to earn some extra social credits. It's more likely she's been given a stern talking to behind the scenes though. Xi Jingping can't project an image of disunity, because his whole spiel is about the One China Policy (read One China Policy as 'Get in Line or Else Policy')

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

I’ve found another great article that shows that Lam is the right leader.

President Xi Jinping praised the Chief Executive Carrie Lam on Thursday for showing courage and undertaking during their second meeting in a week. Xi met Lam and several members of her cabinet on day two of his visit to Macau.

It comes comes just three days after their talks in Beijing during the Chief Executive's duty visit.

In his latest comment, Xi said the central government fully affirms Lam's display of courage and her acceptance of her responsibilities during this extraordinary time.

He also said Beijing fully supports her work plans raised during her duty visit, and hopes every department under the SAR government will work together under her leadership to get their work done for Hong Kong.

Lam, meanwhile, thanked the President Xi for meeting her. She said she would certainly lead the government in putting an end to violence and restore order in the city.

It’s good to see the Chinese continue to support the Hong Kong government. This really does show that China doesn’t abandon its local governments in times of need. I am very touched. There is no doubt Hong Kong is in crisis but does China throw its regional government under a bus? No. Not in the least.

There really is a 2 way cooperation between regional and national government.

I think it’s something to emulate.

How much money did Emperor-Chairman Xi pay you for this post?

[The New California Republic]

I’ve found another great article that shows that Lam is the right leader.



It’s good to see the Chinese continue to support the Hong Kong government. This really does show that China doesn’t abandon its local governments in times of need. I am very touched. There is no doubt Hong Kong is in crisis but does China throw its regional government under a bus? No. Not in the least.

There really is a 2 way cooperation between regional and national government.

I think it’s something to emulate.

How much money did Emperor-Chairman Xi pay you for this post?

It honestly does read like something the 50 cent army would post.