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Hong Kong

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In retrospect..

The UK was right to handover HK to China
231
16%
The UK should have kept HK
289
20%
The UK should have set up HK as an independent, democratic state
870
60%
Other
58
4%
 
Total votes : 1448

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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:28 am

Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:
Hong Kong People wrote:At least Trump has the guts to stand up to China.Without him and the trade war, China will continue to export its totalitarian style of governance to all over the world without any fear. I don't see that Angela Merkel has the same bravery and determination as Trump when it comes to dealing with China.All she knows is to appease China.She even tells Europe not to regard China as a threat.I find it even more ridiculous than Trump not being called the most ridiculous politician in the world.

Given that China can't possibly militarily invade Europe since they are an entire continent apart, its no surprise Merkel doesn't regard China as an imminent threat right now, since unlike Russia, they don't even border any European country. Although the PRC's economic sway should be curtailed by any means neccessary, preferably through a total UN-wide embargo.


The PRC is however already interfering and undermining european stability and institutions altough they havent as nearly as far progressed as with Australia whom they could easily take apart.

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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:29 am

That is a good video on chinese history and also some moves of the PRC in the last years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhMAt3BluAU

(Credits go to The Rich Port for showing it to us)

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North German Realm
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Postby North German Realm » Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:48 am

Novus America wrote:
Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:Given that China can't possibly militarily invade Europe since they are an entire continent apart, its no surprise Merkel doesn't regard China as an imminent threat right now, since unlike Russia, they don't even border any European country. Although the PRC's economic sway should be curtailed by any means neccessary IMHO.


The thing is she is going weak on Russia too. Her problem is a deep seated problem, she has a deeply naive view of the world. Views BOTH Xi and Putin as partners, not adversaries.

If the EU would build up its military forces enough to deter Russia on their own so we can better focus on the PRC that would be great. But Merkel is fighting efforts to strengthen European military rebuilding with her opposition to real improvements in defense spending.

If Germany rebuilt its military to 1980 West Germany alone levels (which after reuniting would not be that hard given its much larger population and economy) it could pretty much neutralize the Russian threat on its own.

But she goes for the Molotov Ribbentrop Pipeline (aka Nord Stream II instead).

Honestly I doubt that's going to survive for much longer. Germany's wont to be forced to restore its military if it's going to survive -All of Europe is- and they're learning. It'll take them a while, sure, and I doubt it'll ever be able to beat Russia one-on-one but it's going to be forced to increase its military spending one way or the other.
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The East Marches II
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Postby The East Marches II » Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:52 am

North German Realm wrote:
Novus America wrote:
The thing is she is going weak on Russia too. Her problem is a deep seated problem, she has a deeply naive view of the world. Views BOTH Xi and Putin as partners, not adversaries.

If the EU would build up its military forces enough to deter Russia on their own so we can better focus on the PRC that would be great. But Merkel is fighting efforts to strengthen European military rebuilding with her opposition to real improvements in defense spending.

If Germany rebuilt its military to 1980 West Germany alone levels (which after reuniting would not be that hard given its much larger population and economy) it could pretty much neutralize the Russian threat on its own.

But she goes for the Molotov Ribbentrop Pipeline (aka Nord Stream II instead).

Honestly I doubt that's going to survive for much longer. Germany's wont to be forced to restore its military if it's going to survive -All of Europe is- and they're learning. It'll take them a while, sure, and I doubt it'll ever be able to beat Russia one-on-one but it's going to be forced to increase its military spending one way or the other.


I wish I had your optimism in the leadership of the European nations.

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Phoenicaea
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Postby Phoenicaea » Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:52 am

^guys.. her grace chanchellor naive? she s been part of the few decent and good sense rulers, in the middle of ignorants and worth nothing rulers.
Last edited by Phoenicaea on Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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North German Realm
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Postby North German Realm » Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:57 am

Phoenicaea wrote:^guys.. her grace chanchellor naive? she s been part of the few decent and good sense rulers, in the middle of ignorants and worth nothing rulers.

Merkel isn't an idiot -that much I grant you, she's a shrewd politician- but she's only one person. An increasingly large frustrating electorate in Europe itself essentially believes Europe has no need nor a right for military... and Merkel's time is at an end. Her successors might not be quite smart.

Of course, that is assuming you were talking about Merkel; she is the only "her grace chancellor" I know of rn.
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North German Confederation
NationStates Flag Bracket II - 6th place!

Norddeutscher Bund
Homepage || Overview | Sovereign | Chancellor | Military | Legislature || The World
9 Sep, 2020
Die Morgenpost: NVP-FVP clashes 'seem to have waned', Berlin law enforcement states as no major demonstration was held in the city for the first time in 5 weeks. | Tianjin calls for a ceasefire between China and Japan as Battle of the Bohai Sea continues. "We'll go home when they demilitarize the border with Ryoujun." Japanese politician states. | Constantinople to host 14 countries as negotiations for more permanent military cooperation in the Middle East finds popular support. | Inexplicable explosions reported by locals near Groom Lake, Nevada, conspiracy theorists claim Borealian Troupe responsible.

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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:06 am

North German Realm wrote:
Phoenicaea wrote:^guys.. her grace chanchellor naive? she s been part of the few decent and good sense rulers, in the middle of ignorants and worth nothing rulers.

Merkel isn't an idiot -that much I grant you, she's a shrewd politician- but she's only one person. An increasingly large frustrating electorate in Europe itself essentially believes Europe has no need nor a right for military... and Merkel's time is at an end. Her successors might not be quite smart.

Of course, that is assuming you were talking about Merkel; she is the only "her grace chancellor" I know of rn.


Merkel has neglected the Bundeswehr systematically. Partially because large parts of the electorate and members of the major parties believe that Europe and Germany have no need for a military, and partially also because not investing into something, means that it cannot be used in the first place which avoids that chance ever to come up.

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North German Realm
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Postby North German Realm » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:09 am

Nakena wrote:
North German Realm wrote:Merkel isn't an idiot -that much I grant you, she's a shrewd politician- but she's only one person. An increasingly large frustrating electorate in Europe itself essentially believes Europe has no need nor a right for military... and Merkel's time is at an end. Her successors might not be quite smart.

Of course, that is assuming you were talking about Merkel; she is the only "her grace chancellor" I know of rn.


Merkel has neglected the Bundeswehr systematically. Partially because large parts of the electorate and members of the major parties believe that Europe and Germany have no need for a military, and partially also because not investing into something, means that it cannot be used in the first place which avoids that chance ever to come up.

And that isn't actually a bad thing in and of itself. By lacking a military Germany can weasel out of its military obligations to NATO, and by taking a position not necessarily the same as the US, Germany can try to make Europe a new pole, rather than a subject of another Great Power. The problem is, at this point lacking a military is no longer helpful like it was in the 2000s.
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North German Confederation
NationStates Flag Bracket II - 6th place!

Norddeutscher Bund
Homepage || Overview | Sovereign | Chancellor | Military | Legislature || The World
9 Sep, 2020
Die Morgenpost: NVP-FVP clashes 'seem to have waned', Berlin law enforcement states as no major demonstration was held in the city for the first time in 5 weeks. | Tianjin calls for a ceasefire between China and Japan as Battle of the Bohai Sea continues. "We'll go home when they demilitarize the border with Ryoujun." Japanese politician states. | Constantinople to host 14 countries as negotiations for more permanent military cooperation in the Middle East finds popular support. | Inexplicable explosions reported by locals near Groom Lake, Nevada, conspiracy theorists claim Borealian Troupe responsible.

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Hong Kong People
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Founded: Aug 12, 2019
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Postby Hong Kong People » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:13 am

Nakena wrote:
Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:Given that China can't possibly militarily invade Europe since they are an entire continent apart, its no surprise Merkel doesn't regard China as an imminent threat right now, since unlike Russia, they don't even border any European country. Although the PRC's economic sway should be curtailed by any means neccessary, preferably through a total UN-wide embargo.


The PRC is however already interfering and undermining european stability and institutions altough they havent as nearly as far progressed as with Australia whom they could easily take apart.

I totally agree.Merkel didn't even object to China building its 5G infrastructure in Germany.Well, do Germans want their personal data be given into CCP's hands?Of course China wouldn't invade Europe by military means, but it was already exerting its influence on Europe by economic means via one-belt-one-road initiative.Bear in mind that Greece already sold the strategically important Port of Piraeus to China as it couldn't repay its debt owed to China.Does Germany also want to sell its strategically important land to China?Merkel clearly didn't have a clear understanding of the threat posed by China because of blind pursuit of pacifist policies.
Last edited by Hong Kong People on Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:15 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:13 am

North German Realm wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Merkel has neglected the Bundeswehr systematically. Partially because large parts of the electorate and members of the major parties believe that Europe and Germany have no need for a military, and partially also because not investing into something, means that it cannot be used in the first place which avoids that chance ever to come up.

And that isn't actually a bad thing in and of itself. By lacking a military Germany can weasel out of its military obligations to NATO, and by taking a position not necessarily the same as the US, Germany can try to make Europe a new pole, rather than a subject of another Great Power. The problem is, at this point lacking a military is no longer helpful like it was in the 2000s.


Its not going to happen though. Not with Merkel, and even less with her sucessors. Germany (or more specifically it's ruling caste) will likely be busy with itself and it's petty political squabbles for the forseeable future. Germany is led by people whose horizon does not reach beyond than the next state election or the next party congress. They believe they can make sucessfull policy by releasing a few good press statements, postures and minor legislations they can sell as big something to an increasingly apathic electorate. And above all of course attempt to stamp out the emerging, systemic threat from the AfD or anything that could possibly aid its rise. (such as anything critical involving islam or refugees)

Germany's ruling caste does, for the most part, not think strategically or beyond its own borders. Merkel is somehow an exception of this. It will only get stronger afterwards. Expect Germany to be absent from international politics as independent or active actor.
Last edited by Nakena on Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:21 am, edited 4 times in total.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:21 am

Hong Kong, right?
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Hong Kong People
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Postby Hong Kong People » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:26 am

The New California Republic wrote:Hong Kong, right?

I guess we shd focus on HK from now on and stop talking about Germany. :lol2: I am sorry that I started talking about Germany because I find it disturbing that some NS users blindly criticised Trump on every issue without reflecting on their own countries' policies regarding China or Russia.
Last edited by Hong Kong People on Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:34 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Memelandia Major
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Postby Memelandia Major » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:48 am

Yea, this is a hong kong thread, not a german one
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:08 am

The New California Republic wrote:Hong Kong, right?


Yes. The thing is the Hong Kong is not a single isolated event, but one conflict of many in a massive fight for the future of the whole world.

The question in both Hong Kong and the entire world is what is the future? A relatively free and Western Society? Or crushed under the heel of Xi’s type of personality cult despotism?

In Hong Kong we see this most clearly, but this is not a question for just Hong Kong.
Last edited by Novus America on Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Hong Kong People
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Postby Hong Kong People » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:41 pm

Novus America wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Hong Kong, right?


Yes. The thing is the Hong Kong is not a single isolated event, but one conflict of many in a massive fight for the future of the whole world.

The question in both Hong Kong and the entire world is what is the future? A relatively free and Western Society? Or crushed under the heel of Xi’s type of personality cult despotism?

In Hong Kong we see this most clearly, but this is not a quest for just Hong Kong.

Exactly.It is naive for some NS users to think that Europeans or Americans will never be under the control of CCP.Given CCP's expansionist policies and totalitarian aspirations, HK's fight now can be any country's fight in the future. It is a choice between freedom and oppression. That's why I am disappointed by the fact that some world leaders, especially Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron, are still oblivious to the threat posed by CCP.
Last edited by Hong Kong People on Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:01 pm

Hong Kong People wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Yes. The thing is the Hong Kong is not a single isolated event, but one conflict of many in a massive fight for the future of the whole world.

The question in both Hong Kong and the entire world is what is the future? A relatively free and Western Society? Or crushed under the heel of Xi’s type of personality cult despotism?

In Hong Kong we see this most clearly, but this is not a quest for just Hong Kong.

Exactly.It is naive for some NS users to think that Europeans or Americans will never be under the control of CCP.Given CCP's expansionist policies and totalitarian aspirations, HK's fight now can be any country's fight in the future. It is a choice between freedom and oppression. That's why I am disappointed by the fact that some world leaders, especially Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron, are still oblivious to the threat posed by CCP.


On the other hand, I can see the EU's reasoning for going soft on the CCP even when it is clearly in the wrong. Russia and China are not friends, and Russia is clearly a threat to the EU (even if its trying to appease them, too). So appeasing China so it will back the EU should Russia decide to seize more than just Ukraine makes sense, geopolitically speaking. Even if the US would also come to the EU's aid (which given Trump's rhetoric, can be reasonably doubted), having China involved as well can't hurt.

However, it is still a mistake to kowtow to China to avoid the Russian jackboot.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:17 pm

Hong Kong People wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Yes. The thing is the Hong Kong is not a single isolated event, but one conflict of many in a massive fight for the future of the whole world.

The question in both Hong Kong and the entire world is what is the future? A relatively free and Western Society? Or crushed under the heel of Xi’s type of personality cult despotism?

In Hong Kong we see this most clearly, but this is not a quest for just Hong Kong.

Exactly.It is naive for some NS users to think that Europeans or Americans will never be under the control of CCP.Given CCP's expansionist policies and totalitarian aspirations, HK's fight now can be any country's fight in the future. It is a choice between freedom and oppression. That's why I am disappointed by the fact that some world leaders, especially Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron, are still oblivious to the threat posed by CCP.

Which is why need to support renewed militarization among our regional allies, in 2017 Sweden renewed their conscription law 3 years after the Crimea Crisis citing increased threats to national security.
Sweden has the right idea in how to respond to belligerent behavior.
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Phoenicaea
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Postby Phoenicaea » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:35 am

^people has to see difference between countries and ‘their’ own rulers. often they oppose each other. world is not risiko.
Last edited by Phoenicaea on Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Gorbehstan
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Postby Gorbehstan » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:59 am

How is HK right now? I hope the CCP allies can be defeated once and for all.

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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:18 am

We need to be looking over our shoulders when it comes to china. They're not your average enemy (and yes they are an enemy)
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Postby Galloism » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:22 am

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -hong-kong

Now Even Accountants Are Fighting Over Democracy in Hong Kong

Less than a month after Hong Kongers delivered a landslide victory to pro-democracy candidates in district elections, the battle over the city’s future is shifting somewhere you might not expect: the staid world of accounting.

Candidates in this year’s election for the council of the Hong Kong Institute of Certified Public Accountants are being judged largely based on whether they support the city’s pro-democracy movement or are seen to align the pro-Beijing establishment.

It’s not the first time citywide debates have influenced the institute, which certifies accountants and is responsible for overseeing industry standards. But this year’s election is proving especially heated in the wake of protests that have rocked the financial hub for almost six months, according to Rosalind Lee, one of the six pro-democracy candidates.

It underscores the degree to which pro-democracy and pro-government forces are fighting for influence across Hong Kong, even at institutions that ostensibly have little to do with politics. Similar battles have reported to have played out in varying degrees at other professional groups for architects, engineers, doctors and lawyers.

With votes from 44,000 members of the accounting institute due on Dec. 9, the pro-democracy camp has taken to social media to drum up support from younger members of the profession. Pro-Beijing accounting firms and related organizations have been urging staff to support their favored candidates, while officials from China’s Liaison Office in Hong Kong have frequented industry banquets and forums.

All of the so-called Big Four global accounting firms -- Deloitte LLP, PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP, Ernst & Young LLP and KPMG LLP -- have sent identical lists of pro-establishment candidates to staff, according to notices seen by Bloomberg. All four firms have a big presence in China. EY, Deloitte and KPMG spokespeople declined to comment. PwC wasn’t available to comment.

The Chinese government is using various groups in Hong Kong, commonly known as satellite associations, to mobilize support for their preferred candidates, said Benson Wong, a political scientist and former assistant professor at Hong Kong Baptist University.

For some pro-democracy industry practitioners, Beijing’s attempts to influence the election look excessive. “It’s very bad for the profession, and it’s bad for ‘one country, two systems,’” said Kenneth Leung, an accountant and lawmaker on the Legislative Council.

“I don’t object to the Liaison Office regularly meeting with Hong Kong people from different walks of life to build mutual understanding,” said Frankie Yan, a spokesman for financial services at the Professional Commons, a pro-democracy affiliated pressure group. “But it shouldn’t influence our decision or give directions. Hong Kong professionals should have their own stance and professional judgment.”

The accounting council, which counts Hong Kong Financial Secretary Paul Chan among its former leaders, said in a statement that it’s “confident in the integrity” of the election. “We trust and expect that no parties will manipulate the system, as integrity is the bedrock of the CPA profession.”

The China Liaison Office didn’t respond to a fax seeking a comment.

While pro-establishment council members have long dominated the accounting institute, their grip has weakened in recent years. Five from the pro-democracy side were elected last year to the 21-member council after campaigning together for the first time the previous year.

In some ways, the candidates’ platforms mirror those of pro-democracy politicians in Hong Kong. They’re advocating for a one-person, one vote system for the council president -- which is currently elected by only council members -- and for the institute to take a stance on social issues such as the now withdrawn extradition bill that sparked the city’s protests.

This year’s vote involves seven seats on the council and pits six pro-democracy candidates against seven from the establishment camp. Four of the pro-democracy candidates are running for re-election, meaning that at most they’ll be able to pick up two more seats.

It would be a far cry from the historic shift seen in last month’s district council elections, but pro-democracy supporters are pushing for every victory they can get.


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North German Realm
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby North German Realm » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:23 am

Rojava Free State wrote:We need to be looking over our shoulders when it comes to china. They're not your average enemy (and yes they are an enemy)

At the risk of being called a "Yellow Menace-ist" or Sinophobe, China has always been an enemy. Not just to the west, but to anyone that could ever have a relationship with them. The ideologies they're erected by necessitated it, even during their long age of isolation.
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North German Confederation
NationStates Flag Bracket II - 6th place!

Norddeutscher Bund
Homepage || Overview | Sovereign | Chancellor | Military | Legislature || The World
9 Sep, 2020
Die Morgenpost: NVP-FVP clashes 'seem to have waned', Berlin law enforcement states as no major demonstration was held in the city for the first time in 5 weeks. | Tianjin calls for a ceasefire between China and Japan as Battle of the Bohai Sea continues. "We'll go home when they demilitarize the border with Ryoujun." Japanese politician states. | Constantinople to host 14 countries as negotiations for more permanent military cooperation in the Middle East finds popular support. | Inexplicable explosions reported by locals near Groom Lake, Nevada, conspiracy theorists claim Borealian Troupe responsible.

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Gorbehstan
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Postby Gorbehstan » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:27 am

North German Realm wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:We need to be looking over our shoulders when it comes to china. They're not your average enemy (and yes they are an enemy)

At the risk of being called a "Yellow Menace-ist" or Sinophobe, China has always been an enemy. Not just to the west, but to anyone that could ever have a relationship with them. The ideologies they're erected by necessitated it, even during their long age of isolation.


Sinostatism is a 2200-year-old social illness characterized by extreme absence of rights and a completely disarmed population.

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Red Ion
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Postby Red Ion » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:29 am

Hmmmmm

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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:30 am

North German Realm wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:We need to be looking over our shoulders when it comes to china. They're not your average enemy (and yes they are an enemy)

At the risk of being called a "Yellow Menace-ist" or Sinophobe, China has always been an enemy. Not just to the west, but to anyone that could ever have a relationship with them. The ideologies they're erected by necessitated it, even during their long age of isolation.


East Asian thought is different than that of Europe. That's not to say that east Asians by nature are this way or all think like this, but democracy doesn't have a strong tradition in that region of the world. Supporting the rulers even if they're horrible, obeying authority even if it sucks and honoring your superiors even if no one is actually superior are toxic ideas that have festered in China and surrounding areas since time immemorial. The CCP continues to push these ideas to justify their tyranny, while people in the city of Hong Kong question whether those ideas were ever good. As East Kekistan said before he vanished, China produces sociopaths. It's culture seeks to subjugate all and to control. The ideas of freedom or equality are seen as the enemy in that society and when you're fighting a society that tries to create the closest thing to a hive mind among men, you must understand that you're in danger.

This is not sinophobia or yellow peril paranoia. It's just the truth. Maybe things can change in China. I don't give up hope on that front. But right now, we face an enemy that wants to take over everything and everyone. They're watching us and slowly drawing their plans against us.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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