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Hong Kong

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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In retrospect..

The UK was right to handover HK to China
217
16%
The UK should have kept HK
276
20%
The UK should have set up HK as an independent, democratic state
814
60%
Other
54
4%
 
Total votes : 1361

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:58 am

Kowani wrote:
Communal concils wrote:
This seems like a weak counter argument. What I care most about is Order, and history has shown that mass uprisings can lead to civil war and unnecessary bloodshed. I dislike many policies of the PRC, but I find it even worse to encourage a destruction of a country with a billion people.

To use an old idea of mine, since Xeno’s back: Order is of no inherent value.

Xeno was wrong, without order there is no such thing as a stop sign.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:02 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
Kowani wrote:To use an old idea of mine, since Xeno’s back: Order is of no inherent value.

Xeno was wrong, without order there is no such thing as a stop sign.

So…Italy?
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Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

Turbofolkia wrote:And it’s not like the 1000 different offshoots of Protestantism that you have in America are any better. Even if they’re not abusing children, it’s just megachurches filled with people on mobility strollers donating their life savings to Pastor Hamburglar so that he can buy his sixth McMansion.

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Communal concils
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Postby Communal concils » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:03 am

Kowani wrote:
Communal concils wrote:
This seems like a weak counter argument. What I care most about is Order, and history has shown that mass uprisings can lead to civil war and unnecessary bloodshed. I dislike many policies of the PRC, but I find it even worse to encourage a destruction of a country with a billion people.

To use an old idea of mine, since Xeno’s back: Order is of no inherent value.



Your right. I see all material things as subjective. So order is another construct. However, libertarian rejections of order are not helping with anything. especially in this situation. My main concern is that a collapse of a country like china would be worse than what we experience with Yugoslavia.
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List of liberal or semi-liberal ideologies to avoid: "Left"-communism, trotskyism, Intersectionalism, anarchism,classical liberal, social liberalism and economic liberalism( conservatives are addicted to this)

Become anti-woke, and free yourself from the lies of mainstream corporate consumerist media.you should also become an anti-consumerist and anti-capitalist. Embrace socialism( the command economy is better.)
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:08 am

Communal concils wrote:
Kowani wrote:To use an old idea of mine, since Xeno’s back: Order is of no inherent value.



Your right. I see all material things as subjective. So order is another construct. However, libertarian rejections of order are not helping with anything. especially in this situation. My main concern is that a collapse of a country like china would be worse than what we experience with Yugoslavia.


You’d have to prove that democracy would automatically lead to the collapse of China.
I mean, fucking Sudan’s doing it, there’s no reason China can’t.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist. Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

Turbofolkia wrote:And it’s not like the 1000 different offshoots of Protestantism that you have in America are any better. Even if they’re not abusing children, it’s just megachurches filled with people on mobility strollers donating their life savings to Pastor Hamburglar so that he can buy his sixth McMansion.

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Communal concils
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Postby Communal concils » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:15 am

Kowani wrote:
Communal concils wrote:

Your right. I see all material things as subjective. So order is another construct. However, libertarian rejections of order are not helping with anything. especially in this situation. My main concern is that a collapse of a country like china would be worse than what we experience with Yugoslavia.


You’d have to prove that democracy would automatically lead to the collapse of China.
I mean, fucking Sudan’s doing it, there’s no reason China can’t.



Well, I already hinted that the 1911 Revolution in china caused a brutal civil war with countless warlords. https://alphahistory.com/chineserevolution/warlord-era/

I always cheer the collapse of Monarchies, but I don't think it would be desirable to do this again to china in the 21st century.
Woke Leftist: Anti-Liberal Leftist

List of liberal or semi-liberal ideologies to avoid: "Left"-communism, trotskyism, Intersectionalism, anarchism,classical liberal, social liberalism and economic liberalism( conservatives are addicted to this)

Become anti-woke, and free yourself from the lies of mainstream corporate consumerist media.you should also become an anti-consumerist and anti-capitalist. Embrace socialism( the command economy is better.)
NOTE: Make Cultural Marxism a Real Thing !

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:28 pm

Kowani wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Xeno was wrong, without order there is no such thing as a stop sign.

So…Italy?

Foods pretty good there, so. Ok.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

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Sovaal
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Sovaal » Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:09 pm

Tuthina wrote:
Great Kysilia wrote:Surprisingly enough, Hong Kong is still a part of China so it is relevant.

Only if you prescribe to the idea that the only way Hong Kong can have democracy is for the rest of China to have democracy as well, though, which I'm not sure is valid.

Short of a major change in the PRC government, Hong Kong’s current position as autonomous and nominally democratic is not going to be forever.
Most of the time I have no idea what the hell I'm doing or talking about.

”Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe.
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is
the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time." -
Winston Churchill, 1947.

"Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon – so long as there is no answer to it – gives claws to the weak.” - George Orwell

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:25 pm

Great Kysilia wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Short of a major change in the PRC government, Hong Kong’s current position as autonomous and nominally democratic is not going to be forever.

The agreement they made with Britain only required them to guarantee Hong Kong's autonomy for 50 years.

So how long has it been now? Sorry, I'm drunk fam.


22ish.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

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New haven america
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:49 pm

Great Kysilia wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:
22ish.

So they've got a good 28 years or so before the PRC can legally strip them of all autonomy.

They better work faster to preserve it.

The PRC can legally strip them of all autonomy right now.

There's no force in the world that can prevent them from doing so.
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Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

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Relikai
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Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Relikai » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:01 pm

Communal concils wrote:
Great Kysilia wrote:Well, it's more of a cultural thing. The Chinese don't exactly have the long history of democracy and the peaceful exchange of power that we do in many Western countries. Similarly to the Russians, they just don't believe that they need a Western-style democracy.



Thank you. Just like any other anti-realist in Politics, this guy believes that one frame work for a society has universal applications. With a world with so many diverse groups, I find such beliefs laughable.


Given how victim blaming is supported in this forum against non-supporters of Western Democracy.

I'm not really surprised to see many with such views here.
NationStates reveals to all the delusional fantasies of a certain people, and the proud ignorance of the circlejerking community.
Deliberate target of sinophobia on and off NS, victim of the Western media-influenced, proud victim of pro-West rhetoric. Staunch opposition of anarchy, of hypocrites shown by the myopic western-influenced crowd when it comes to hard evidence.
Due to trolling and cyberbullying, I shall therefore dedicate myself to walking the Party Line of this community, and adopt the stance which so many demand instead of possessing a free mind. The Party Line of being a western shill shall be followed in all discussions to further the racist Anti-PRC agenda by the community.

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Bombadil
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:07 pm

It's childish to push the narrative that the Chinese can't handle democracy, a narrative that only serves the CCP. It's terribly condescending to the people of China.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

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The Underestimated Ones
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Posts: 96
Founded: Apr 06, 2018
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The Underestimated Ones » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:11 pm

so, whats the situation in hong kong rn
Imma normal boii, with normal boii's interests.
WE DO NOT USE NS STATS (mostly)
A 1.5 power civilization, according to this index.
YEET-----> Being a 10/10 Nation According to DGES
National Anthem: DEMONITIZED (Also RIP)
Military Anthem: XD LOL
Factbook: ~Snip~

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Relikai
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Postby Relikai » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:14 pm

Bombadil wrote:It's childish to push the narrative that the Chinese can't handle democracy, a narrative that only serves the CCP. It's terribly condescending to the people of China.


Pretty much true, but then again many Westerners said it's condescending to think the Middle East can't handle democracy, the same people cheered when Iraq had illegal democracy forced upon itself by unjustified foreign invaders.
NationStates reveals to all the delusional fantasies of a certain people, and the proud ignorance of the circlejerking community.
Deliberate target of sinophobia on and off NS, victim of the Western media-influenced, proud victim of pro-West rhetoric. Staunch opposition of anarchy, of hypocrites shown by the myopic western-influenced crowd when it comes to hard evidence.
Due to trolling and cyberbullying, I shall therefore dedicate myself to walking the Party Line of this community, and adopt the stance which so many demand instead of possessing a free mind. The Party Line of being a western shill shall be followed in all discussions to further the racist Anti-PRC agenda by the community.

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New haven america
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:25 pm

The Underestimated Ones wrote:so, whats the situation in hong kong rn

The CCP backed government of Hon Kong tried pushing through an extradition bill that would allow PRC police and investigators to come in and arrest/deport to the mainland anyone they even suspected of being a criminal, regardless or status or nationality or etc...

This pissed off Hong Kong's population as they viewed it as PRC strengthening its grip over them (Which is was), and have since started protesting not only the extradition bill, but China in general.
Human of the male variety
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Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

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Relikai
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Postby Relikai » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:26 pm

New haven america wrote:
The Underestimated Ones wrote:so, whats the situation in hong kong rn

The CCP backed government of Hon Kong tried pushing through an extradition bill that would allow PRC police and investigators to come in and arrest/deport to the mainland anyone they even suspected of being a criminal, regardless or status or nationality or etc...

This pissed off Hong Kong's population as they viewed it as PRC strengthening its grip over them (Which is was), and have since started protesting not only the extradition bill, but China in general.


Leaving out the main cause of the extradition bill I see... on purpose?

Edit - I just expected people to bring out a fair and full picture given how passionate they are on the subject, to understand the underlying factors regardless of their agenda.
Last edited by Relikai on Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NationStates reveals to all the delusional fantasies of a certain people, and the proud ignorance of the circlejerking community.
Deliberate target of sinophobia on and off NS, victim of the Western media-influenced, proud victim of pro-West rhetoric. Staunch opposition of anarchy, of hypocrites shown by the myopic western-influenced crowd when it comes to hard evidence.
Due to trolling and cyberbullying, I shall therefore dedicate myself to walking the Party Line of this community, and adopt the stance which so many demand instead of possessing a free mind. The Party Line of being a western shill shall be followed in all discussions to further the racist Anti-PRC agenda by the community.

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The Underestimated Ones
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Posts: 96
Founded: Apr 06, 2018
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The Underestimated Ones » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:39 pm

wtf china, just wtf...
Imma normal boii, with normal boii's interests.
WE DO NOT USE NS STATS (mostly)
A 1.5 power civilization, according to this index.
YEET-----> Being a 10/10 Nation According to DGES
National Anthem: DEMONITIZED (Also RIP)
Military Anthem: XD LOL
Factbook: ~Snip~

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Sovaal
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Postby Sovaal » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:39 pm

The Underestimated Ones wrote:wtf china, just wtf...

I mean it fits with their MO.
Most of the time I have no idea what the hell I'm doing or talking about.

”Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe.
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is
the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time." -
Winston Churchill, 1947.

"Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon – so long as there is no answer to it – gives claws to the weak.” - George Orwell

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The Underestimated Ones
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Posts: 96
Founded: Apr 06, 2018
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The Underestimated Ones » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:02 pm

yep

but in a world full of democracy, that act will sure stand out
Imma normal boii, with normal boii's interests.
WE DO NOT USE NS STATS (mostly)
A 1.5 power civilization, according to this index.
YEET-----> Being a 10/10 Nation According to DGES
National Anthem: DEMONITIZED (Also RIP)
Military Anthem: XD LOL
Factbook: ~Snip~

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:17 pm

On the ground arrests continue, frankly the police are out of control. The images and videos that stream across channels each day are terrible. They're not even bothering to file reports anymore. Unless there's a wholesale investigation, clean out and reform over this they'll never be a part of society again.

Regardless of one's stance it's simply dangerous and wrong to allow the police to act outside the law with impunity.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

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Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia
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Postby Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:22 pm

Hanxia wrote:
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:Yes, they were comparing Xi to Pooh Bear, which is an innocuous joke. Which was banned because the CCP can't stand having its leaders being made fun of.

That’s the type of childish Western reason. After the first comparisons/jokes were made (these were tolerated for some time), the bear then became a euphemism for the President (visual code) in communications by criminal elements working against the state. By censoring the bear, these dangerous sociopaths have been deprived of yet another tool in their attempts to sabotage our society.

"Muh sociopathic criminals" is not a good argument at all. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence after all.

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New haven america
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:38 pm

Relikai wrote:
New haven america wrote:The CCP backed government of Hon Kong tried pushing through an extradition bill that would allow PRC police and investigators to come in and arrest/deport to the mainland anyone they even suspected of being a criminal, regardless or status or nationality or etc...

This pissed off Hong Kong's population as they viewed it as PRC strengthening its grip over them (Which is was), and have since started protesting not only the extradition bill, but China in general.


Leaving out the main cause of the extradition bill I see... on purpose?

Edit - I just expected people to bring out a fair and full picture given how passionate they are on the subject, to understand the underlying factors regardless of their agenda.

Oh, my bad.

The Hong Kong government said it was a bad idea but the CCP said "Fuck that" and forced them to pass it through anyway.
Human of the male variety
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Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

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Bloodshade
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Founded: May 28, 2017
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Postby Bloodshade » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:13 pm

Bombadil wrote:It's childish to push the narrative that the Chinese can't handle democracy, a narrative that only serves the CCP. It's terribly condescending to the people of China.


No disagreements here. Many people around the world generally prefer a system of democracy (not necessarily the US's brand) and China is not somehow incapable of democracy like some might say. The only thing stopping them is the CPC really.

Relikai wrote:
Pretty much true, but then again many Westerners said it's condescending to think the Middle East can't handle democracy, the same people cheered when Iraq had illegal democracy forced upon itself by unjustified foreign invaders.


The US government never cared much about bringing democracy to the Middle East. It was more about serving the interests of their favorite gas station which is why you probably shouldn't trust a foreign power like the US to bring democracy to China and uphold the interests of the Chinese people. Spreading democracy might've been the motivator for the Iraq War but in the end, they knocked out competition and made sure the Saudi royal family remained untouched and happy.

Regardless, that's not an excuse for the CPC at all to continue what it's doing. There's only so much China can do with this current system of governance as their legitimacy is extremely vulnerable to any sort of civil disobedience as shown by their inability/impotence to peacefully resolve the Hong Kong. The CPC is not hurting the West when it gives the go ahead for the Hong Kong police to brutalize HK protesters. It's hurting the people of Hong Kong and the future stability of China.

That's just one of the reasons for why Xi and his buddies should back down. This current tyrannical one party system is detrimental to the Chinese people and the fact is, the only thing the CPC has going for it is high economic growth and it's not even caused by the CPC. What happens when the US and Chinese economies decouple and the economic growth they're maintaining starts to slow down?

I really don't want to see China in turmoil because of the stubbornness and brutality of its ruling class and I don't want to see the Hong Kong protesters brutalized for not wanting to live under the CPC's rule. I understand why you're skeptical with the interference of foreign governments but the oppressiveness of the CPC is only setting up China for failure in the future. In the end, the only country that's going to suffer from the CPC's tyranny is China.
Last edited by Bloodshade on Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tuthina
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Postby Tuthina » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:37 pm

Relikai wrote:
New haven america wrote:The CCP backed government of Hon Kong tried pushing through an extradition bill that would allow PRC police and investigators to come in and arrest/deport to the mainland anyone they even suspected of being a criminal, regardless or status or nationality or etc...

This pissed off Hong Kong's population as they viewed it as PRC strengthening its grip over them (Which is was), and have since started protesting not only the extradition bill, but China in general.


Leaving out the main cause of the extradition bill I see... on purpose?

Edit - I just expected people to bring out a fair and full picture given how passionate they are on the subject, to understand the underlying factors regardless of their agenda.

Because the cause (basically, a HKer is suspected to have murdered his possibly cheating girlfriend in Taiwan, before fleeing to Hong Kong, who benefited from a lack of formal extradition relations between the two places and was imprisoned for a lesser crime) doesn't really matter that much anymore. In fact, I would say the extradition bill itself doesn't matter that much, as the main focus has shifted towards the unrestrainted police brutality used by the government to suppress anyone it disgaree with, from protesters to simply passer-bys.
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Miami Shores
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Postby Miami Shores » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:15 am

Bombadil wrote:On the ground arrests continue, frankly the police are out of control. The images and videos that stream across channels each day are terrible. They're not even bothering to file reports anymore. Unless there's a wholesale investigation, clean out and reform over this they'll never be a part of society again.

Regardless of one's stance it's simply dangerous and wrong to allow the police to act outside the law with impunity.

I talked to my Cuban Chinese friend in Miami the other day, he is worried about his Chinese cousin and his family in Hong Kong. They keep in touch through Pics and letters translated for them into Spanish and Chinese by translators in Miami and Hong Kong. Since the time my Chinese Cuban friend visited his Chinese cousin and his family in Hong Kong. They communicated with each other by pointing at this and that and exchanged letters translated for them in Spanish and Chinese.

I am a strong supporter of the Chinese People and Taiwan China as I call them. I support a greater Taiwan China of Taiwan, Mainland China, Hong Kong and Macau, as the one and only true China.

As I have a girl cousin of Cuban Chinese Spaniard descent. She is a beautiful lady, looks white Spaniard with certain Chinese facial features. In the family we affectionately call her la China. Guys are called el Chino, which means Chinese.

Chinese Cubans and mixed descent in Cuba make up at least 1 % of the population. It is a higher percent % in Miami. Cuba used to have one of the largest China Towns in Hispanic Latin America and the largest of the Caribbean islands before the revolution.

Many Chinese Cubans were highly respected for their restaurants and businesses, many joined the middle class and upper class in Cuba before the revolution, most emigrated to Miami after the revolution, no Cuban American neighborhood is complete without its Chinese Cuban restaurants.
Last edited by Miami Shores on Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:19 am

Bloodshade wrote:The US government never cared much about bringing democracy to the Middle East. It was more about serving the interests of their favorite gas station

I love this phrase and I am stealing it.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist. Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

Turbofolkia wrote:And it’s not like the 1000 different offshoots of Protestantism that you have in America are any better. Even if they’re not abusing children, it’s just megachurches filled with people on mobility strollers donating their life savings to Pastor Hamburglar so that he can buy his sixth McMansion.

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