Hong Kong

[The South Falls]

I would say that bigotry is not necessary, though achieving separation from China among the issues that are presented should come above all else, even considerations of bigotry.

It's not necessary, but it is a side effect, a lamentable one, given that those mainlanders would -- if they aren't apolitical or too fearful of China's response -- be more sympathetic to HK demands.

Cooperation is required and can be achieved even with bigotry from some. Reconciliation just has to come afterwards.

There has to be some sort of at least partial separation. There's a difference between "really close friends" and "joined at the hip", which is the case.

In the Sinosphere (or even East Asia as a whole), the two are one in the same, so I won't have high hopes of that actually being achievable. There are a lot of dealings between mainland and Hong Kong, many of which is vital to Hong Kong merchants, if not the residents of the city as a whole, which means it is quite unlikely that it won't bleed over like how it happened in RL.

The protestors should petition for a partially autonomous Hong Kong. Deals can still be pursued, just with less legal interference from the PRC.

[Infected Mushroom]

If the protest did not stop... then sooner or later, we will have casualties

When was the last time someone died during mass demonstrations in Hong Kong IM?

No one died because the forces of law and order prevailed before it could spread and escalate

[Duhon]

...who is dead IM?

If the protest did not stop... then sooner or later, we will have casualties

and all for what MIGHT happen in 2047 or some unspecified point in the distant future

"Will".

What makes you think Hong Kong is so special, that a crackdown turning it into just another prosperous Chinese city devoid of protest and mummified in social credit before or after 2047 is unfathomable for you?

[Infected Mushroom]

If the protest did not stop... then sooner or later, we will have casualties

and all for what MIGHT happen in 2047 or some unspecified point in the distant future

"Will".

What makes you think Hong Kong is so special, that a crackdown turning it into just another prosperous Chinese city devoid of protest and mummified in social credit before or after 2047 is unfathomable for you?

because Hong Kong is a cash cow

[The New California Republic]

When was the last time someone died during mass demonstrations in Hong Kong IM?

No one died because the forces of law and order prevailed before it could spread and escalate

So you are talking nonsense. Good to know.

[Hammer Britannia]

No one died because the forces of law and order prevailed before it could spread and escalate

So you are talking nonsense. Good to know.

You just now realized that?

jk, jk

[Duhon]

"Will".

What makes you think Hong Kong is so special, that a crackdown turning it into just another prosperous Chinese city devoid of protest and mummified in social credit before or after 2047 is unfathomable for you?

because Hong Kong is a cash cow

So is Shanghai. Does Shanghai enjoy the same sort of leeway as Hong Kong?

[The South Falls]

Hong Kong will look like the rest of China by 2047 if no action is taken.

Dissent - crushed

Protestors - executed on trumped-up charges

Pollution - yes

Social credit - yep

[The New California Republic]

So you are talking nonsense. Good to know.

You just now realized that?

jk, jk

[Tuthina]

It's not necessary, but it is a side effect, a lamentable one, given that those mainlanders would -- if they aren't apolitical or too fearful of China's response -- be more sympathetic to HK demands.

Cooperation is required and can be achieved even with bigotry from some. Reconciliation just has to come afterwards.

In the Sinosphere (or even East Asia as a whole), the two are one in the same, so I won't have high hopes of that actually being achievable. There are a lot of dealings between mainland and Hong Kong, many of which is vital to Hong Kong merchants, if not the residents of the city as a whole, which means it is quite unlikely that it won't bleed over like how it happened in RL.

The protestors should petition for a partially autonomous Hong Kong. Deals can still be pursued, just with less legal interference from the PRC.

Not that such a petition would be considered, but the bigger issue is that on the paper, Hong Kong is very autonomous all things considered, with only issues like defence and some foreign policies being something explicitly stated to be under the purview of PRC - although difference between the legal systems of the two places have resulted in some disputes that arguably flamed the whole HK-PRC conflict in the first place.

The issue is that there are no shortage of pure-blood (or as much as it could be, given the city's immigrant past) HKers who are perfectly willing to cater to PRC's demands, or what they consider to be pleasing to them, that they can push through legally while keeping the theoretical autonomy of Hong Kong - it's the HK government's own decision to be closer to PRC, after all. That is, as I mentioned before, not something that has an easy answer to.

[The South Falls]

This is a watershed moment for Hong Kong. If China wins, Hong Kong will forever be under their thumb.

[Nakena]

This is a watershed moment for Hong Kong. If China wins, Hong Kong will forever be under their thumb.

This, pretty much.

[Tuthina]

This is a watershed moment for Hong Kong. If China wins, Hong Kong will forever be under their thumb.

Not really, no. It will probably be more a question of how much damage, literal or reputation-wise, protesters can inflict on the law enforcement and government before the demonstration is ended. From the look of it, though, probably not a lot.

[Duhon]

This is a watershed moment for Hong Kong. If China wins, Hong Kong will forever be under their thumb.

"When".

[The South Falls]

Cooperation is required and can be achieved even with bigotry from some. Reconciliation just has to come afterwards.

The protestors should petition for a partially autonomous Hong Kong. Deals can still be pursued, just with less legal interference from the PRC.

Not that such a petition would be considered, but the bigger issue is that on the paper, Hong Kong is very autonomous all things considered, with only issues like defence and some foreign policies being something explicitly stated to be under the purview of PRC - although difference between the legal systems of the two places have resulted in some disputes that arguably flamed the whole HK-PRC conflict in the first place.

The issue is that there are no shortage of pure-blood (or as much as it could be, given the city's immigrant past) HKers who are perfectly willing to cater to PRC's demands, or what they consider to be pleasing to them, that they can push through legally while keeping the theoretical autonomy of Hong Kong - it's the HK government's own decision to be closer to PRC, after all. That is, as I mentioned before, not something that has an easy answer to.

Those PRCers have kids, though. There is no shortage of people raised as Hong Kongers, that may long for sovereignty. Conversely, there may be those raised by their parents. It looks bleak, it looks bleak.

[Tuthina]

Not that such a petition would be considered, but the bigger issue is that on the paper, Hong Kong is very autonomous all things considered, with only issues like defence and some foreign policies being something explicitly stated to be under the purview of PRC - although difference between the legal systems of the two places have resulted in some disputes that arguably flamed the whole HK-PRC conflict in the first place.

The issue is that there are no shortage of pure-blood (or as much as it could be, given the city's immigrant past) HKers who are perfectly willing to cater to PRC's demands, or what they consider to be pleasing to them, that they can push through legally while keeping the theoretical autonomy of Hong Kong - it's the HK government's own decision to be closer to PRC, after all. That is, as I mentioned before, not something that has an easy answer to.

Those PRCers have kids, though. There is no shortage of people raised as Hong Kongers, that may long for sovereignty. Conversely, there may be those raised by their parents. It looks bleak, it looks bleak.

They do - at least 60% of people in Hong Kong are, according to the last census. However, the line between "(mainland) Chinese born in Hong Kong" and "Hong Konger" is a blurry one, if one exists at all, in no small parts due to the lack of distinct identity of the place. Even then, whether it transforms into a desire for independence and sovereignty is questionable, given that there are rampant localism, even in the Han part of PRC which does not really translate to anything remotely against the central government.

[Infected Mushroom]

because Hong Kong is a cash cow

So is Shanghai. Does Shanghai enjoy the same sort of leeway as Hong Kong?

Shanghai's fine

[Nova Cyberia]

Hong Kong and Macau should have been given to the Republic of China just to piss of the PRC.

The PRC views Taiwan as a rebellious province, so doing that would have meant Hong Kong and Macau would probably have been immediately invaded and annexed.

[Duhon]

So is Shanghai. Does Shanghai enjoy the same sort of leeway as Hong Kong?

Shanghai's fine

In which ways is it "fine"? Be specific.

[Heloin]

Shanghai's fine

In which ways is it "fine"? Be specific.

They have money and the CCP says it's fine.

[The South Falls]

This is a watershed moment for Hong Kong. If China wins, Hong Kong will forever be under their thumb.

Not really, no. It will probably be more a question of how much damage, literal or reputation-wise, protesters can inflict on the law enforcement and government before the demonstration is ended. From the look of it, though, probably not a lot.

Let's hope it doesn't end like Tiananmen.

[Infected Mushroom]

Shanghai's fine

In which ways is it "fine"? Be specific.

people are not disappearing off the streets in large numbers

there are no concentration camps

people can go to work and come home, there is a bright economic future for the place, its a center of commerce

there is relative security in the streets

no one living there organically would go... "Oh wow this place is a totalitarian hellhole" unless they intentionally went about trying to cross lines; in other words, nothing like a random Stalinist purge would occur (but if you went looking for one by stirring up trouble, then that's something else)

[The South Falls]

This is a watershed moment for Hong Kong. If China wins, Hong Kong will forever be under their thumb.

"When".

It'll be negotiations or artillery.

[Heloin]

In which ways is it "fine"? Be specific.

people are not disappearing off the streets in large numbers

there are no concentration camps

people can go to work and come home, there is a bright economic future for the place, its a center of commerce

there is relative security in the streets

no one living there organically would go... "Oh wow this place is a totalitarian hellhole" unless they intentionally went about trying to cross lines; in other words, nothing like a random Stalinist purge would occur (but if you went looking for one by stirring up trouble, then that's something else)

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45806904

[Tuthina]

Not really, no. It will probably be more a question of how much damage, literal or reputation-wise, protesters can inflict on the law enforcement and government before the demonstration is ended. From the look of it, though, probably not a lot.

Let's hope it doesn't end like Tiananmen.

It most probably won't. I doubt even the HK equivalent of SWAT would need to be deployed to disperse the protesters. Hell, it seems to be almost done and the police didn't even get the water cannons online.