Hong Kong

[Heloin]

As someone who lives in Hong Kong, I don’t want any trouble.

That’s my priority.

If you ask me, then I consider any protests at this point to be highly irresponsible and reckless. I’m not interested in seeing a military crackdown here because some idealists start some demonstrations.

Having seen the mockery that is democracy in countries like the USA, I can safely say it’s not worth dying for (it’s more ugly than beautiful). And it would be a shame if this led to actual bloodshed and economic disruption.

Nah, dictatorships are terrible places to live. You can keep talking about how much better it is then places like the States but it just ain't true.

You'd rather live in a totalitarian country like China than a democracy like the USA?

*chuckles*

Okay, fam. Move to China. If you find a way around the internet censorship and can log on to NS, let us all know how it is.

NS is not blocked in China, at least not the last time I was there a couple months ago.

Great Firewall to lax, eh Comrade.

[Infected Mushroom]

Quite honestly I'd be ok with the Cantonese speaking population of southern China seceding but that will never happen.

I too love unironically dreaming of a more Balkanized mainland. But even if just Hong Kong and Taiwan got their independence I'd be 10x happier.

And I’m telling you that’s a highly irresponsible point of view because millions will be killed for some lofty idea of Freedom

[Pasong Tirad]

NS is not blocked in China, at least not the last time I was there a couple months ago.

It's not?

That's surprising, tbh.

I can post a copypasta that might get the site flagged by Beijing but that might count as spam.

[Nakena]

I too love unironically dreaming of a more Balkanized mainland. But even if just Hong Kong and Taiwan got their independence I'd be 10x happier.

And I’m telling you that’s a highly irresponsible point of view because millions will be killed for some lofty idea of Freedom

I doubt the PRC is going to kill millions of people in HK. How would that going to happen anyways?

It's not?

That's surprising, tbh.

I can post a copypasta that might get the site flagged by Beijing but that might count as spam.

Ah I know that one too. A splendid idea.

[Pasong Tirad]

I too love unironically dreaming of a more Balkanized mainland. But even if just Hong Kong and Taiwan got their independence I'd be 10x happier.

And I’m telling you that’s a highly irresponsible point of view because millions will be killed for some lofty idea of Freedom

Authoritarian wet dreams are disgusting. Dictatorships are and forever will be terrible for everyone but the elites.

[Nova Cyberia]

It's not?

That's surprising, tbh.

I can post a copypasta that might get the site flagged by Beijing but that might count as spam.

Eh, let's not. If this is one of the few outlets that Chinese people can view that isn't complete CPC propaganda then let's keep it that way.

[Infected Mushroom]

As someone who lives in Hong Kong, I don’t want any trouble.

That’s my priority.

If you ask me, then I consider any protests at this point to be highly irresponsible and reckless. I’m not interested in seeing a military crackdown here because some idealists start some demonstrations.

Having seen the mockery that is democracy in countries like the USA, I can safely say it’s not worth dying for (it’s more ugly than beautiful). And it would be a shame if this led to actual bloodshed and economic disruption.

Nah, dictatorships are terrible places to live. You can keep talking about how much better it is then places like the States but it just ain't true.

You can already elect half the legislature here.

That should honestly be enough.

It’s not worth fighting a war/throwing this place into anarchy just so we can replace a corrupt partly unelected pro big corporation oligarchy... with a completely elected corrupt pro big corporation oligarchy

The people advocating are doing so from a comfortable place abroad or else have just not really thought it through

[Nakena]

And I’m telling you that’s a highly irresponsible point of view because millions will be killed for some lofty idea of Freedom

Authoritarian wet dreams are disgusting. Dictatorships are and forever will be terrible for everyone but the elites.

The PRC isn't authoritarian or even autocratic. It is currently turning into a totalitarian state. Thats something very different. And way, way worse.

[Bombadil]

It's hard to know what's going on right now.. with the reading delayed I'd hope things become slightly less tense today. The bill is set to be passed next Thursday however so I doubt this will go away anytime soon. Meanwhile..

“Just like equipping us with guns, it’s just to be used as a very last resort to protect ourselves, just look at how many people there are,” he said. “As long as they don’t attack us, I don’t think we need to escalate to use of force.”

The officer said that within the force some were more sympathetic to students, while others felt annoyed at having to work long hours. “But neither students nor police can solve this, that’s beyond us,” he said.

Still, not sure how I will get home today as it's centred on my way.. I can get a shitty ferry from Aberdeen back to my island I suppose. Much like many other companies I both allowed my team to work from home and attend the protest according to their conscience with the caveat to stay away from the front lines and run if there's any trouble.

[Heloin]

I too love unironically dreaming of a more Balkanized mainland. But even if just Hong Kong and Taiwan got their independence I'd be 10x happier.

And I’m telling you that’s a highly irresponsible point of view because millions will be killed for some lofty idea of Freedom

If that were the case then Africa and Asia should have never been decolonised by the Empires of Europe.

[Infected Mushroom]

Authoritarian wet dreams are disgusting. Dictatorships are and forever will be terrible for everyone but the elites.

The PRC isn't authoritarian or even autocratic. It is currently turning into a totalitarian state. Thats something very different. And way, way worse.

I agree that the internet policy and this “you must be a CCP member to have social status” policies are pretty vexing.

But on most other fronts, things are quite acceptable

[Infected Mushroom]

And I’m telling you that’s a highly irresponsible point of view because millions will be killed for some lofty idea of Freedom

If that were the case then Africa and Asia should have never been decolonised by the Empires of Europe.

Yes

Your point?

[New Bremerton]

Please elaborate.

I mean Singapore was originally part of Malaysia until it was expelled in '65. It functions perfectly well as an independent city state. If the UK had set up HK as an independent and democratic state in the 60's for example, I think it could be functioning well as an independent city state as well.

Obviously by the 80's it would have been impossible as China would never accept it. Yet, similar to Taiwan, it might not necessarily take the step of invading HK if it had been established as independent earlier.

Quite honestly I'd be ok with the Cantonese speaking population of southern China seceding but that will never happen.

Britain was in no position to cling on to Hong Kong, grant it independence or hand it over to Taiwan. Britain is no longer the imperial superpower it once was and China was already an emerging superpower by the time of the Handover. Granting Hong Kong independence would likely have resulted in it being invaded and annexed immediately. Besides, the only British politician who really cares about Hong Kong is its last colonial governor, Chris Patten. Westminster doesn't really give two shits otherwise. China made all these promises of freedom and autonomy only to renege on them. The people of Taiwan are not going to fall for the same trick. As for Singapore, it would be nice if they rejoined Malaysia and contributed to the Malaysian economy and political landscape. Not only that, but the authoritarian PAP would likely either be toppled or lose most of its bite, being reduced to a mere state government within Malaysia.

[Nakena]

The PRC isn't authoritarian or even autocratic. It is currently turning into a totalitarian state. Thats something very different. And way, way worse.

I agree that the internet policy and this “you must be a CCP member to have social status” policies are pretty vexing.

But on most other fronts, things are quite acceptable

If the CCP is going to win the current confrontation they're probably in the short or long run imposing their system to varying degrees over the very place where you, by your own admission, currently reside in.

Including internet censorship, social credit points etc.

[Bombadil]

The PRC isn't authoritarian or even autocratic. It is currently turning into a totalitarian state. Thats something very different. And way, way worse.

I agree that the internet policy and this “you must be a CCP member to have social status” policies are pretty vexing.

But on most other fronts, things are quite acceptable

If China was opening up more I might agree, but all signs point to it cracking down on any form of dissent - this is a nation that bans Winnie-the-Pooh because of a comic reference to its leader.

HK is the one place people can reasonably voice out their desire for greater freedom, that a protest like this can even occur. I am fine with making as much noise as possible to retain it and glad the issue is on many front covers around the world.

[Infected Mushroom]

And I’m telling you that’s a highly irresponsible point of view because millions will be killed for some lofty idea of Freedom

I doubt the PRC is going to kill millions of people in HK. How would that going to happen anyways?

As someone with lots and lots to lose, I’m not interested in rolling the dice

Protests and revolutions are often started by irresponsible people with nothing to lose (and cheered on by spectators from abroad). End result is usually that everyone in the immediate aftermath is worse off.

[Heloin]

If that were the case then Africa and Asia should have never been decolonised by the Empires of Europe.

Yes

Your point?

Ok... You just opened a completely different can of worms unrelated to this thread because I didn't think anyone would ever reasonably say yes to that question.

[Infected Mushroom]

I agree that the internet policy and this “you must be a CCP member to have social status” policies are pretty vexing.

But on most other fronts, things are quite acceptable

If the CCP is going to win the current confrontation they're probably in the short or long run imposing their system to varying degrees over the very place where you, by your own admission, currently reside in.

Including internet censorship, social credit points etc.

They haven’t yet to a degree where it’s worth rolling the dice

It doesn’t concern me if my corrupt pro business overlords are completely elected or partially elected (because let’s face it, it’s rigged either way and these are the only types of people they’d install in this corrupt place)

The technical or symbolic process behind the machinery isn’t worth dying for

[Bombadil]

I mean Singapore was originally part of Malaysia until it was expelled in '65. It functions perfectly well as an independent city state. If the UK had set up HK as an independent and democratic state in the 60's for example, I think it could be functioning well as an independent city state as well.

Obviously by the 80's it would have been impossible as China would never accept it. Yet, similar to Taiwan, it might not necessarily take the step of invading HK if it had been established as independent earlier.

Quite honestly I'd be ok with the Cantonese speaking population of southern China seceding but that will never happen.

Britain was in no position to cling on to Hong Kong, grant it independence or hand it over to Taiwan. Britain is no longer the imperial superpower it once was and China was already an emerging superpower by the time of the Handover. Granting Hong Kong independence would likely have resulted in it being invaded and annexed immediately. Besides, the only British politician who really cares about Hong Kong is its last colonial governor, Chris Patten. Westminster doesn't really give two shits otherwise. China made all these promises of freedom and autonomy only to renege on them. The people of Taiwan are not going to fall for the same trick. As for Singapore, it would be nice if they rejoined Malaysia and contributed to the Malaysian economy and political landscape. Not only that, but the authoritarian PAP would likely either be toppled or lose most of its bite, being reduced to a mere state government within Malaysia.

Well hence I said if it was to be done it had to have been done in the 60's, the 80's were indeed far too late for anything other than handing it over.

[Infected Mushroom]

Yes

Your point?

Ok... You just opened a completely different can of worms unrelated to this thread because I didn't think anyone would ever reasonably say yes to that question.

I believe European Empires brought a great deal of world stability

I prefer it to the new model of irresponsible “pro-freedom” imperialism used by countries like the USA where they enter, destabilize a country, and leave no functional government for a while

[Nakena]

They haven’t yet to a degree where it’s worth rolling the dice

It doesn’t concern me if my corrupt pro business overlords are completely elected or partially elected (because let’s face it, it’s rigged either way and these are the only types of people they’d install in this corrupt place)

The technical or symbolic process behind the machinery isn’t worth dying for

I do not even disagree. My point is not the system of governance, nor I am argueing in favor of democracy in this case. I doubt how democratic British HK was with a imperial appointed Governor.

However theres a difference between that and the kind of a totalitarian system as it is currently implemented in mainland China. In the former you can just stay out of politics and mind your own business, while the later won't let you. Thats where I draw the line.

I hope you have an exit and escape plan for the worst case, though I do not expect Beijing to crack down too heavily even if they manage to pull it through.

[Bombadil]

Ok... You just opened a completely different can of worms unrelated to this thread because I didn't think anyone would ever reasonably say yes to that question.

I believe European Empires brought a great deal of world stability

I prefer it to the new model of irresponsible “pro-freedom” imperialism used by countries like the USA where they enter, destabilize a country, and leave no functional government for a while

Yeah, the stability of the First World War..

[Bombadil]

They haven’t yet to a degree where it’s worth rolling the dice

It doesn’t concern me if my corrupt pro business overlords are completely elected or partially elected (because let’s face it, it’s rigged either way and these are the only types of people they’d install in this corrupt place)

The technical or symbolic process behind the machinery isn’t worth dying for

I do not even disagree. My point is not the system of governance, nor I am argueing in favor of democracy in this case. I doubt how democratic British HK was with a imperial appointed Governor.

However theres a difference between that and the kind of a totalitarian system as it is currently implemented in mainland China. In the former you can just stay out of politics and mind your own business, while the later won't let you. Thats where I draw the line.

I hope you have an exit and escape plan for the worst case, though I do not expect Beijing to crack down too heavily even if they manage to pull it through.

HK did sort of shoot itself in the foot given it was offered a form of universal suffrage, where the entire city would be able to vote for approved candidates. I personally think they should have accepted that given it's a step in a better direction than having 1,200 business elites voting for a leader.

Aspects of the protests can be relatively futile 'anti-Beijing at all costs' actions, but this particular law is specifically troubling given it directly steps on the right to dissent.

[Heloin]

Ok... You just opened a completely different can of worms unrelated to this thread because I didn't think anyone would ever reasonably say yes to that question.

I believe European Empires brought a great deal of world stability

I prefer it to the new model of irresponsible “pro-freedom” imperialism used by countries like the USA where they enter, destabilize a country, and leave no functional government for a while

You don't know a lot about colonial history do you?

[Pasong Tirad]

If that were the case then Africa and Asia should have never been decolonised by the Empires of Europe.

Yes

Your point?

Disgusting.