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Hong Kong

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

In retrospect..

The UK was right to handover HK to China
45
19%
The UK should have kept HK
61
26%
The UK should have set up HK as an independent, democratic state
115
49%
Other
14
6%
 
Total votes : 235

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Bombadil
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Posts: 10004
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Hong Kong

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:15 pm

My walk to work takes me along the harbour and up through Tamar Park, where today there are thousands, soon to be tens if not hundreds, of people gathered to protest the discussions of a bill that opens extradition to China.

Thousands of demonstrators have gathered in Hong Kong as the city braced for fresh protests and politicians prepared to debate extradition legislation critics fear would let China spirit its political critics across the border.

What are the HK protests about?

Even as I walked through scuffles were breaking out, the atmosphere is thick with emotion - everyone's wearing black and donning masks.. it's.. tense.

What are the wider fears about Beijing’s influence on Hong Kong?
Many in the protests on Sunday said they felt overwhelmed by a sense of helplessness in the face of mainland China’s increasing political, economic and cultural influence in Hong Kong. Hong Kong’s top political leader is not elected by ordinary voters but by a 1,200-strong election committee accountable to Beijing. Half of its legislature are chosen through indirect electoral systems that favour pro-Beijing figures.

Many Hong Kongers also cited the jailing of leaders and activists from the 2014 Occupy Central movement– a 79-day mass civil disobedience movement – as well as the disqualification of young localist lawmakers as signs of the erosion of civil freedoms.

Resentment towards China has been intensified by soaring property prices – with increasing numbers of mainland Chinese buying properties in the city – as well as the government’s “patriotic education” drive, and the large numbers of mainland tourists who flock to Hong Kong.

Many Hong Kongers are also concerned about China’s growing control over the city’s news media, as they increasingly self-censor and follow Beijing’s tacit orders.


Did you know that HK is technically the most visited city in the world.. Paris receives some 23M a year.. for HK..

In 2014, a record 60.8 million visitors came to the city. Last year, the total number of visitors was 58.4 million.

So..

Is it simply inevitable that HK becomes merely another city of China? Does the two systems one country policy work, or mean much anymore?

The crux of this is that more than 1M people came out at the weekend to oppose this bill, out of a population of just over 7M. In US terms that would be the equivalent of everyone who voted for Trump, some 60M.. imagine that..

Regardless of the bill it's clear people are opposed, and yet the legislation will likely go through. The HK government is citing a Taiwan murder case as the rationale yet the leader of Taiwan has said they will not accept any extradition based on this law. Beijing say they're not involved but they're certainly supporting it.

Mostly I hope it doesn't turn violent, though given the atmosphere of this morning I suspect it will.

Oddly enough I don't mind the actual bill, HK should have extradition laws, it's more the adamant stance of the government to absolutely ignore the people claiming 'they don't understand it'. It drops any pretence they represent HK beyond the fact they're only voted in by 1, 200 people out of the total population.

In a sense this stands at the crux of whether the world moves to greater suffrage or less.

What thinks ye all?

The West should stand up for the rule of law in Hong Kong
Last edited by Bombadil on Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Heloin
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Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:25 pm

Another step by China to try and do as much as possible until it can properly and violently kill off one country, two systems in 2047.
Last edited by Heloin on Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aidonaian Soviet Republic
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Founded: Jun 10, 2019
Anarchy

Postby Aidonaian Soviet Republic » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:30 pm

I’d support Democratic socialism instead.

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Rojava Free State
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Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:31 pm

I bet they're gonna sell the taiwanese out some day just like they did to the people of Hong Kong and Macao
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Bombadil
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Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:36 pm

Heloin wrote:Another step by China to try and do as much as possible until it can properly and violently kill off one country, two systems in 2047.


I very much doubt it will last until 2047.. or it will be in name only with no practical difference.

I actually lived in Beijing pre-Olympic bid when everything was open and optimistic, the extent to which it has regressed is disturbing. It's causing me to seriously consider whether I need to start planning to move elsewhere.
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Duhon
Minister
 
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Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:43 pm

Anyone up for another Tiananmen? If you think Hong Kong's economic status will preserve it from violence, Xi Jinping has one of his thousand and on thoughts to share with you.

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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:43 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Heloin wrote:Another step by China to try and do as much as possible until it can properly and violently kill off one country, two systems in 2047.


I very much doubt it will last until 2047.. or it will be in name only with no practical difference.

I actually lived in Beijing pre-Olympic bid when everything was open and optimistic, the extent to which it has regressed is disturbing. It's causing me to seriously consider whether I need to start planning to move elsewhere.


Move.

If Xi can kill off Hong Kong's penchant for democracy before 2047 without disrupting its economic activity, that would be welcome... but if it comes right down to it? He'd take the L and raze Hong Kong to the ground. Better that than a base for destabilization.
Last edited by Duhon on Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ayeinc
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 6
Founded: May 03, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Hong Kong

Postby Ayeinc » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:44 pm

I wish China would just leave Hong Kong and Macao alone. They have different systems of government and society. I'm pretty sure the citizens of Hong Kong and Macao are not going to give up their freedoms without a fight.
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Heloin
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Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:47 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:I bet they're gonna sell the taiwanese out some day just like they did to the people of Hong Kong and Macao

Until the US doesn't give a shit about the ROC, Beijing can't touch Taiwan without risking everything.

Bombadil wrote:
Heloin wrote:Another step by China to try and do as much as possible until it can properly and violently kill off one country, two systems in 2047.


I very much doubt it will last until 2047.. or it will be in name only with no practical difference.

I actually lived in Beijing pre-Olympic bid when everything was open and optimistic, the extent to which it has regressed is disturbing. It's causing me to seriously consider whether I need to start planning to move elsewhere.

I'm thinking this is part of the process to make the change in '47 less noticeable or completely unnoticeable.
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I would not worship a God who is homophobic and that is how deeply I feel about this - Desmond Tutu

My Names Jennifer, a 20 something Rabbit and Rhodie Girl. Proudly Zimbabwean, and currently a Floridian too. TET Disc Jockey.
I love Rugby. Go Springboks, Go Sables! I draw things and make pixel stuff. And now maps! Take a look!

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Duhon
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Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:50 pm

Of course it's all part of the plan to turn Hong Kong into yet another docile Chinese city, where everyone is on social credit and Xi (or his successor/s) grace them with their thoughts. What made you all think otherwise?

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Pasong Tirad
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Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:51 pm

Bombadil wrote:Regardless of the bill it's clear people are opposed, and yet the legislation will likely go through. The HK government is citing a Taiwan murder case as the rationale yet the leader of Taiwan has said they will not accept any extradition based on this law. Beijing say they're not involved but they're certainly supporting it.

Good on Tsai. Taiwan stands in solidarity with Hong Kong - and we should be too.
Last edited by Pasong Tirad on Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aidonaian Soviet Republic
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Founded: Jun 10, 2019
Anarchy

Postby Aidonaian Soviet Republic » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:53 pm

Hold on, there’s only one China. We have to support them against US imperialism.
Last edited by Aidonaian Soviet Republic on Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bombadil
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Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:57 pm

Aidonaian Soviet Republic wrote:Hold on, there’s only one China. We have to support them against US imperialism.


..through the suppression of people's right to have a say in their own future.. sweet..
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

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Duhon
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Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:02 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Aidonaian Soviet Republic wrote:Hold on, there’s only one China. We have to support them against US imperialism.


..through the suppression of people's right to have a say in their own future.. sweet..


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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:04 pm

Jesus..

9:56AM
'Disperse or we fire'
Police earlier unfurled an orange flag with the words "Disperse or we fire" on Tim Mei Avenue, which briefly heightened tension with protesters. Some protesters had pushed barriers.


Rolling coverage
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Duhon
Minister
 
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Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:04 pm

Bombadil wrote:Jesus..

9:56AM
'Disperse or we fire'
Police earlier unfurled an orange flag with the words "Disperse or we fire" on Tim Mei Avenue, which briefly heightened tension with protesters. Some protesters had pushed barriers.


Rolling coverage


Jesus fuck I what?

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Northwest Slobovia
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Founded: Sep 16, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Northwest Slobovia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:05 pm

Aidonaian Soviet Republic wrote:Hold on, there’s only one China, the government in exile in Taiwan. We have to support them against US totalitarian ex-communist, now sorta fascist imperialism.

You had made some small typos in your post, but I fixed them for you. :P
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:07 pm

China has been attempting a slow cultural & political creep across its dissident territories (whether ethnic/religious as Xinjiang or political as HK). I feel really bad for the people affected by it.
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Pasong Tirad
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:10 pm

Aidonaian Soviet Republic wrote:Hold on, there’s only one China. We have to support them against US imperialism.

There is only one China if only the Mainland would recognize the independence of Taiwan. ;)
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:11 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Aidonaian Soviet Republic wrote:Hold on, there’s only one China. We have to support them against US imperialism.

There is only one China if only the Mainland would recognize the independence of Taiwan. ;)

Taiwan shouldn't be the administrator of all of China either tbh.
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Aidonaian Soviet Republic
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Anarchy

Postby Aidonaian Soviet Republic » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:11 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Aidonaian Soviet Republic wrote:Hold on, there’s only one China. We have to support them against US imperialism.


..through the suppression of people's right to have a say in their own future.. sweet..

We shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water but support democratic socialism there, not bourgeois democracy.

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:11 pm

July 1, 1997 worst day of life.
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:12 pm

Aidonaian Soviet Republic wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
..through the suppression of people's right to have a say in their own future.. sweet..

We shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water but support democratic socialism there, not bourgeois democracy.

I'd quite prefer throwing the baby out with the bathwater if Chinese socialism is the alternative.
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:12 pm

Heloin wrote:
Bombadil wrote:I very much doubt it will last until 2047.. or it will be in name only with no practical difference.

I actually lived in Beijing pre-Olympic bid when everything was open and optimistic, the extent to which it has regressed is disturbing. It's causing me to seriously consider whether I need to start planning to move elsewhere.

I'm thinking this is part of the process to make the change in '47 less noticeable or completely unnoticeable.


China have openly said they don't care for the agreement.

“Now that Hong Kong has returned to the embrace of the motherland for 20 years, the Sino-British Joint Declaration – as a historical document – no longer has any practical significance,” he said.

“It also does not have any binding power on how the Chinese central government administers Hong Kong. Britain has no sovereignty, no governing power and no supervising power over Hong Kong. I hope the relevant parties will reckon with this reality.”

The UK has been publishing reports on Hong Kong every six months since 1997.

In response, a British Foreign Office spokesperson told Reuters: “The Sino-British Joint Declaration remains as valid today as it did when it was signed over thirty years ago… It is a legally binding treaty, registered with the UN and continues to be in force. As a co-signatory, the UK government is committed to monitoring its implementation closely.”
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:13 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:There is only one China if only the Mainland would recognize the independence of Taiwan. ;)

Taiwan shouldn't be the administrator of all of China either tbh.


Wrong.

Aidonaian Soviet Republic wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
..through the suppression of people's right to have a say in their own future.. sweet..

We shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water but support democratic socialism there, not bourgeois democracy.


Well considering Socialism sucks, no.
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Trazyn the Infinite encourages Imperial forces to embark on the Indomitus Crusade after the Fall of Cadia. Circa. M42
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Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Come back when the French aren't protesting about something. That's real news.

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