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Was German Reunification a Mistake?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Was German reunification, as it happened, a mistake?

Yes, Germany should never have been reunified
30
17%
Sort of, because it was done wrong and/or too quickly
47
26%
No
103
57%
 
Total votes : 180

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:05 am

Petrolheadia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:You seem to forget that Eastern Germany was left destitute when the industrial base was shut down by the Treuhand following reunification, which Eastern Germany still hasn't recovered from today, as many of the former industrial cities are still depopulating because of the massive unemployment that arose as a result...

It was no agreement, it was what happened in the Easten Bloc in general - companies cut off from the public budget found out that decades of mismanagement royally fucked them in the ass in terms of marketability.

See the post I made earlier regarding VEB Pentacon.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

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Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:07 am

Petrolheadia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:You seem to forget that Eastern Germany was left destitute when the industrial base was shut down by the Treuhand following reunification, which Eastern Germany still hasn't recovered from today, as many of the former industrial cities are still depopulating because of the massive unemployment that arose as a result...

It was no agreement, it was what happened in the Easten Bloc in general - companies cut off from the public budget found out that decades of mismanagement royally fucked them in the ass in terms of marketability.


East German industry was the most advanced in COMECON area. Its not like they had a level, like, uhm, Albania perhaps. They had definetively some good stuff that could have been salvaged with a better and less rushed economical policy.
Last edited by Nakena on Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Great-German Empire
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Postby The Great-German Empire » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:08 am

Nope. Mistakes were made in the process of reunification, but the reunification had a right and a duty to the whole German people to happen. It doesn't matter if Europe isn't as streamlined because of it (Because frankly screw the United States of Europe), and the political/open society argument is even more moot: East Germans and East Europeans in general are not against open and democratic societies, they just have a different view on what comes with such a society. As a Russian myself, I would even state that we eastern Europeans have a more realistic outside view on both the boons and the fallacies such societies have developed, but that's really besides the point; what matters is that West Germans and western Europeans alike should not fear new input on how a society should be shaped. Yes, its true that the Communist-shattered Eastern societies have taken some Western toil to rebuild, but what matters is that Germany is whole and independent, and Europe no longer has a literal front line drawn down the middle.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:10 am

Nakena wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:You seem to forget that Eastern Germany was left destitute when the industrial base was shut down by the Treuhand following reunification, which Eastern Germany still hasn't recovered from today, as many of the former industrial cities are still depopulating because of the massive unemployment that arose as a result...
Petrolheadia wrote:It was no agreement, it was what happened in the Easten Bloc in general - companies cut off from the public budget found out that decades of mismanagement royally fucked them in the ass in terms of marketability.


East German industry was the most advanced in COMECON area. Its not like they had standards, like, uhm, Albania perhaps. They had definetively some good stuff that could have been salvaged with a better and less rushed economical policy.

And the quality of East German exported goods did keep pace with those in the West in many areas. Sure, they drove their economy into the ground to achieve that, but the goods that resulted were perfectly marketable even in the early 90s.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

NS Hitman
White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Peoples Republic of Karlsruhe
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Postby Peoples Republic of Karlsruhe » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:10 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Rosethorn Autocracy wrote:
Fine the German Democratic Republic (a soviet Substate) built it apologies.
It was still built by a totalitarian regime to strengthen to deepen the divide between east and west Germany.

So basically your original point has dissolved away because your original point was targeting the winning powers for constructing the wall. Good to know.


My original pount was that a wall was built SPECIFICALLY to keep the two Germanies apart (yes it was also a seperation of NATO and Soviet states and part of the iron curtain, but a major reason for it’s existence was keeping East Germans from fleeing to West Germany (where back then they were still welcomed with open arms).

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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:11 am

The Great-German Empire wrote:Nope. Mistakes were made in the process of reunification, but the reunification had a right and a duty to the whole German people to happen. It doesn't matter if Europe isn't as streamlined because of it (Because frankly screw the United States of Europe), and the political/open society argument is even more moot: East Germans and East Europeans in general are not against open and democratic societies, they just have a different view on what comes with such a society. As a Russian myself, I would even state that we eastern Europeans have a more realistic outside view on both the boons and the fallacies such societies have developed, but that's really besides the point; what matters is that West Germans and western Europeans alike should not fear new input on how a society should be shaped. Yes, its true that the Communist-shattered Eastern societies have taken some Western toil to rebuild, but what matters is that Germany is whole and independent, and Europe no longer has a literal front line drawn down the middle.


Thank you for this post. :bow:
Last edited by Nakena on Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Petrolheadia
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Postby Petrolheadia » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:12 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:It was no agreement, it was what happened in the Easten Bloc in general - companies cut off from the public budget found out that decades of mismanagement royally fucked them in the ass in terms of marketability.

See the post I made earlier regarding VEB Pentacon.

"It was deemed that company was grossly inefficient, employing six thousand staff when it could have sufficed with one thousand, and selling its cameras at a loss."

Wikipedia is your friend. Companies don't close for no reason.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:13 am

Peoples Republic of Karlsruhe wrote:My original pount was that a wall was built SPECIFICALLY to keep the two Germanies apart (yes it was also a seperation of NATO and Soviet states and part of the iron curtain, but a major reason for it’s existence was keeping East Germans from fleeing to West Germany (where back then they were still welcomed with open arms).

It wasn't your original point at all. Your original point was a misplaced dig at the winning powers:

Rosethorn Autocracy wrote:The other argument that l haven’t seen here yet is purely a moral one, namely that our country was separated in negotiations we had no say in, and they had to build a wall to keep us apart.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

NS Hitman
White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Petrolheadia
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Postby Petrolheadia » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:14 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Nakena wrote:
East German industry was the most advanced in COMECON area. Its not like they had standards, like, uhm, Albania perhaps. They had definetively some good stuff that could have been salvaged with a better and less rushed economical policy.

And the quality of East German exported goods did keep pace with those in the West in many areas. Sure, they drove their economy into the ground to achieve that, but the goods that resulted were perfectly marketable even in the early 90s.

Source on that, with actual financial analysis?

Also, many closed factories were then rebuilt - like the Dresden auto factory, which used to make Trabants, and now, ironically, makes much lf VAG's luxury stuff and is going to be building their upcoming electric line.
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We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic.
Not sure if left-libertarian, ex-libertarian or without a damn clue.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:14 am

German reunification was not a mistake. The problems that were caused by reunification could have been prevented if Germany had never been divided. These problems are very real, but the division of the German people was much worse.
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Petrolheadia
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Postby Petrolheadia » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:15 am

Nakena wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:It was no agreement, it was what happened in the Easten Bloc in general - companies cut off from the public budget found out that decades of mismanagement royally fucked them in the ass in terms of marketability.


East German industry was the most advanced in COMECON area. Its not like they had a level, like, uhm, Albania perhaps. They had definetively some good stuff that could have been salvaged with a better and less rushed economical policy.

Less rushed? How much money would have to be pumped, and how much useful would it have been in the West?

Sometimes, scrapping is much better, and more industry is not always good.
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic.
Not sure if left-libertarian, ex-libertarian or without a damn clue.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:15 am

Petrolheadia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:See the post I made earlier regarding VEB Pentacon.

"It was deemed that company was grossly inefficient, employing six thousand staff when it could have sufficed with one thousand, and selling its cameras at a loss."

Wikipedia is your friend.

I have already read wikipedia regarding Pentacon, but did you read my post?

Petrolheadia wrote:Companies don't close for no reason.

And companies do close if the Treuhand made a catastrophic error...
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

NS Hitman
White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Petrolheadia
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Postby Petrolheadia » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:17 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:Companies don't close for no reason.

And companies do close if the Treuhand made a catastrophic error...

Sourced by a financial analysis or muh feelings?
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic.
Not sure if left-libertarian, ex-libertarian or without a damn clue.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:17 am

Petrolheadia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:And the quality of East German exported goods did keep pace with those in the West in many areas. Sure, they drove their economy into the ground to achieve that, but the goods that resulted were perfectly marketable even in the early 90s.

Source on that, with actual financial analysis?

I made a comment on the goods themselves, rather than anything needing financial analysis to back it up.

Petrolheadia wrote:Also, many closed factories were then rebuilt - like the Dresden auto factory, which used to make Trabants, and now, ironically, makes much lf VAG's luxury stuff and is going to be building their upcoming electric line.

Sure they did to a certain extent, but industrial output and employment in Eastern Germany is still much less than it once was.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

NS Hitman
White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:18 am

Petrolheadia wrote:
Nakena wrote:
East German industry was the most advanced in COMECON area. Its not like they had a level, like, uhm, Albania perhaps. They had definetively some good stuff that could have been salvaged with a better and less rushed economical policy.

Less rushed? How much money would have to be pumped, and how much useful would it have been in the West?

Sometimes, scrapping is much better, and more industry is not always good.


Fair point. However:

There were billions upon billions pumped into the Aufbau Ost to very little to no effect.

If just a friction of that money would have been used to help core industries to modernize the story might be a very different one.
Last edited by Nakena on Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mojave Confederation
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Postby Mojave Confederation » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:18 am

Was German reunification a mistake? No.

Was how the german reunified themselves a mistake? Maybe.

Is what i can summed up from the thread
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:19 am

Petrolheadia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:And companies do close if the Treuhand made a catastrophic error...

Sourced by a financial analysis or muh feelings?

I like how you are trying to get a rise out of me with that "muh feelings" BS. ;)

There was a report I mentioned in my original post regarding VEB Pentacon earlier.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

NS Hitman
White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Peoples Republic of Karlsruhe
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Founded: Jun 30, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Peoples Republic of Karlsruhe » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:19 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Peoples Republic of Karlsruhe wrote:My original pount was that a wall was built SPECIFICALLY to keep the two Germanies apart (yes it was also a seperation of NATO and Soviet states and part of the iron curtain, but a major reason for it’s existence was keeping East Germans from fleeing to West Germany (where back then they were still welcomed with open arms).

It wasn't your original point at all. Your original point was a misplaced dig at the winning powers:

Rosethorn Autocracy wrote:The other argument that l haven’t seen here yet is purely a moral one, namely that our country was separated in negotiations we had no say in, and they had to build a wall to keep us apart.


I agree l could have worded that better and that is on me. However my original point was NOT meant to imply that the allies agreed to the wall in some way, my point was meant to convey that our country was separated in negotiations we had no say in AND additionally to that later on the totalitarian DDR built a wall that it’s people had no say in.
I apologize, you’re right my point was not made most eloquently there.

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Petrolheadia
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Postby Petrolheadia » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:20 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:Sourced by a financial analysis or muh feelings?

I like how you are trying to get a rise out of me with that "muh feelings" BS. ;)

There was a report I mentioned in my original post regarding VEB Pentacon earlier.

Do you have a link to that?

Even then, is it just one company, or the entire industry?
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Not sure if left-libertarian, ex-libertarian or without a damn clue.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:21 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:Sourced by a financial analysis or muh feelings?

I like how you are trying to get a rise out of me with that "muh feelings" BS. ;)

There was a report I mentioned in my original post regarding VEB Pentacon earlier.


The Treuhand was driven by a "muh free murket" ideology. But in fact it was carpetbaggery up to eleven. Didn help that the first Treuhand boss got sniped off by the RAF, however.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:23 am

Petrolheadia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:I like how you are trying to get a rise out of me with that "muh feelings" BS. ;)

There was a report I mentioned in my original post regarding VEB Pentacon earlier.

Do you have a link to that?

Even then, is it just one company, or the entire industry?

As I mentioned, this was back in the 90s, before the internet, that I read the report; so no links, as the concept of url links didn't exist back then. It may be out there somewhere now, but I haven't dug around.

And I used VEB Pentacon as a case in point, rather than being reflective of the entire industry. But it is indicative that the Treuhand could and did make mistakes.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

NS Hitman
White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Petrolheadia
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Postby Petrolheadia » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:24 am

Nakena wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:I like how you are trying to get a rise out of me with that "muh feelings" BS. ;)

There was a report I mentioned in my original post regarding VEB Pentacon earlier.


The Treuhand was driven by a "muh free murket" ideology. But in fact it was carpetbaggery up to eleven.

I'd rather carpetbag than waste money.
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic.
Not sure if left-libertarian, ex-libertarian or without a damn clue.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

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Germanyt
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Postby Germanyt » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:27 am

It doesn't matter the cost of unification, but what matters is the unity of all of Germany under one banner and the reuniting of families and the German people. Also, Germany has never really been TRULY unified. Austria remains outside of Germany, and the traditional German lands ethnically and culturally cleansed by Stalin remain lost. Germany has experienced many hardships due to the end of the war, but the worst of all the hardships was dividing the German people in appeasing the Soviet Union's lust for power.
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:30 am

Germanyt wrote:It doesn't matter the cost of unification, but what matters is the unity of all of Germany under one banner and the reuniting of families and the German people. Also, Germany has never really been TRULY unified. Austria remains outside of Germany, and the traditional German lands ethnically and culturally cleansed by Stalin remain lost. Germany has experienced many hardships due to the end of the war, but the worst of all the hardships was dividing the German people in appeasing the Soviet Union's lust for power.

I mostly agree that Germany should be united, but Austria is not a part of Germany anymore. Still, reunification was worth it.
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God is love.
Housing, food, education, and health are human rights.
Discrimination is immoral.
God is not a Republican.
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I was wrong, and I'm sorry. Those opinions were formed by me and only me, and I was responsible for the effect they had. I'm sorry.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:32 am

Geneviev wrote:German reunification was not a mistake. The problems that were caused by reunification could have been prevented if Germany had never been divided. These problems are very real, but the division of the German people was much worse.

I think that some kind of division was inevitable due to the way that WW2 in Europe progressed on two fronts towards Germany; it was just a question of how it was going to be divided, and what form said division would take.

Germanyt wrote:Austria remains outside of Germany, and the traditional German lands ethnically and culturally cleansed by Stalin remain lost.

There was a price to be paid for trying to annex half of Europe, and that was part of the price I'm afraid.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

NS Hitman
White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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