NationStates

Posted: **Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:14 am**

The Natufian Nation wrote:Germany never should have formed in the first place, damn you Otto von Bismarck!. The more pieces the better. I say, bring back the Holy Roman Empire!!

People in this thread seem to keep forgetting that we are talking about the 1990 reunification, and not stuff that happened a century or two prior.

Posted: **Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:16 am**

Bears Armed wrote:
North German Realm wrote:Except not. West and East Germany reunified in 1989-90 (3 October 1990). Ukraine and Belarus existed only as part of the Soviet Union, without any authority as a sovereign state outside of it (like the modern Republics of the Russian Federation). They became sovereign nations in August 1991, and their statehood internationally recognized -at some points- later into 1992-3. At the point the 4+2 negotiations were going on, Ukraine and Belarus existed only as members of the Soviet Union, and under jurisdiction thereof. Their "internationally recognized statehood" was like that of the Republic of Dagestan. None at all. Whether or not Pomerania and (EDITED: Lower) Silesia should have been returned to Germany isn't my point, it's that Kresy should have been returned to Poland first, before any form of negotiation over German unification could start (as Germany still had claims on lands held by Poland, which it did not rescind until after the agreement).

Except that, to placate the Soviets, Belarus and the Ukraine had been given theoretically-separate seats in the UN from early on in that organisation's existence...

Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:I think you're forgetting that "Russia" in 1939 included Belarus and Lithuania, which border Kaliningrad.

Incorrect. The Soviet Union didn't annex Lithuania until the summer of 1940.

1939 1940 makes no difference, I'm simply illustrating that the USSR already bordered Kaliningrad de jure before the conferences deciding its future.

The New California Republic wrote:
Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:

In many respects, East Germany is one of the worst post-communist countries today.

In 2017, the East German unemployment rate was more than double that of the Czech Republic and Poland, for example. Wages in East Germany are lower than both of those, when adjusted for PPP.

Ignoring for a second that East Germany isn't a separate country, many of the current economic problems in that part of Germany can be laid at the feet of the wrecking ball tactics of the Treuhand.

So? Identical tactics were used in the Czech Republic/Slovakia and in Poland, originally called Balcerowicz Plan which predated Treuhand by a good few months. East German problems are precisely due to the fact that they are part of Germany at-large, as their currency is uncompetitive for their productivity and West German manufacturing companies obliterated East German competitors, while West German consumer goods companies set up networks in East Germany and then export profits back to the West. None of Germany's 100 largest firms are located in the East.

In the same fashion, a Korean reunification without at least some 30-year transitioning period of two independent cooperating states would completely obliterate North Korean society.

Posted: **Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:19 am**

Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:So? Identical tactics were used in the Czech Republic/Slovakia and in Poland, originally called Balcerowicz Plan which predated Treuhand by a good few months. East German problems are precisely due to the fact that they are part of Germany at-large, as their currency is uncompetitive for their productivity and West German manufacturing companies obliterated East German competitors, while West German consumer goods companies set up networks in East Germany and then export profits back to the West. None of Germany's 100 largest firms are located in the East.

And hence why many people on this thread have mentioned that reunification should have been done differently.

Posted: **Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:23 am**

The New California Republic wrote:
Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:So? Identical tactics were used in the Czech Republic/Slovakia and in Poland, originally called Balcerowicz Plan which predated Treuhand by a good few months. East German problems are precisely due to the fact that they are part of Germany at-large, as their currency is uncompetitive for their productivity and West German manufacturing companies obliterated East German competitors, while West German consumer goods companies set up networks in East Germany and then export profits back to the West. None of Germany's 100 largest firms are located in the East.

And hence why many people on this thread have mentioned that reunification should have been done differently.

Any 'reunification' into a single state is economic suicide, unless you plan to stop time for the richer neighbour until the poorer one catches up.

Posted: **Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:44 am**

Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:And hence why many people on this thread have mentioned that reunification should have been done differently.

Any 'reunification' into a single state is economic suicide, unless you plan to stop time for the richer neighbour until the poorer one catches up.

The case of VEB Pentacon that I mentioned earlier gives an example of how it could have been done differently.

Posted: **Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:58 am**

The edge behind muh "The 1870 German Unification was the mistake" posts present in this thread almost physically hurts tbh, and this NS only exists as one such AltHis scenario in the first place.

Posted: **Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:01 am**

No it was'nt.

Posted: **Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:48 am**

Posted: **Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:41 am**

The New California Republic wrote:
The Natufian Nation wrote:Germany never should have formed in the first place, damn you Otto von Bismarck!. The more pieces the better. I say, bring back the Holy Roman Empire!!

People in this thread seem to keep forgetting that we are talking about the 1990 reunification, and not stuff that happened a century or two prior.

No, it was clear the thread is talking about 1990 as the word reunification means making whole again after having once been separated, implying a previous state of unity. Yes, I was going tangential to the topic but I hope it is clear that was intentional to try to interject a bit of humor and maybe stimulate some thought as to whether or not the idea of a German nation ever really made sense in the first place. But thanks for trying to keep us all on topic.

If you really want to know my opinion about reunification, no, I don't think it was a mistake at all. A united Germany provides a robust economic and political anchor for the EU and is critical for a strong NATO, both forwarding the cause of peace in Europe and keeping Western Europe relevant on the world stage. And it seemed the majority of German people on both sides largely wanted it and I support self-determination. Just my $0.02

Posted: **Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:25 am**

Yes, absolutely, Britain should never have allowed such a thing - a United Germany allows for a United Europe which it is in Britain's interests to quell.

Posted: **Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:58 am**

Bro, when you expand territory and population your upkeep might go up, but your net income and productivity as a society goes WAYYYY up.

NationStates

Was German Reunification a Mistake?