Was German Reunification a Mistake?

[The New California Republic]

and was done with an extreme level of arrogance and views centric to the West German government with zero regard or understanding that like France, the Netherlands, Denmark etc

The roles of Netherlands and Denmark during the reunification were negligible afaik.

I certainly haven't heard of either of them playing a major role in reunification either; or at least it has never popped up in any reading that I have done on the subject.

[North German Realm]

The East-West division was an artificial one, not based upon history or culture.
Germans endured great struggle to become one nations (as did others, such as Italy).
We should not lightly dismiss this achievement.

The "moving" of Poland westwards was also artificial, and not based upon history. They literally moved the border (almost) to the Curzon Line in the East, and to the Oder-Neisse Line in the West, because...because politics said so. History is chock full of "artificial" stuff, yet we don't try to rectify all of them. Or, for that matter, even some of them.

Yeah, but the forced ethnic cleansing of Poles, Ukrainians, and Germans is relatively recent, compared to many other artificial stuff we don't talk about. If we're being technical, everything in history is artificial after all.

[The South Falls]

Puppet state of poland? I could see reducing the GDR's size, but I wouldn't like for it to become a Russian puppet.

When did Poland become Russia?

When Russia spread its sprawling influence through eastern Europe in a quasi-soviet union.

[Vistulange]

The "moving" of Poland westwards was also artificial, and not based upon history. They literally moved the border (almost) to the Curzon Line in the East, and to the Oder-Neisse Line in the West, because...because politics said so. History is chock full of "artificial" stuff, yet we don't try to rectify all of them. Or, for that matter, even some of them.

Yeah, but the forced ethnic cleansing of Poles, Ukrainians, and Germans is relatively recent, compared to many other artificial stuff we don't talk about. If we're being technical, everything in history is artificial after all.

And there are a lot more recent things compared to 1945, and yet, we don't try to rectify those, either. Why prod this particular beehive in 2019?

And yes, everything in history is artificial, unless one happens to believe in some sort of odd, archaic, and deterministic understanding of history.

[The South Falls]

German reunification protected the GDR from the curling arms of the Russian Federation, imo.

[North German Realm]

Yeah, but the forced ethnic cleansing of Poles, Ukrainians, and Germans is relatively recent, compared to many other artificial stuff we don't talk about. If we're being technical, everything in history is artificial after all.

And there are a lot more recent things compared to 1945, and yet, we don't try to rectify those, either. Why prod this particular beehive in 2019?

And yes, everything in history is artificial, unless one happens to believe in some sort of odd, archaic, and deterministic understanding of history.

This beehive was prodded on this small political forum because someone talked about it. It may have been me, but there were others too. These beehives get prodded when someone mentions something about them, you know.

[Vistulange]

And there are a lot more recent things compared to 1945, and yet, we don't try to rectify those, either. Why prod this particular beehive in 2019?

And yes, everything in history is artificial, unless one happens to believe in some sort of odd, archaic, and deterministic understanding of history.

This beehive was prodded on this small political forum because someone talked about it. It may have been me, but there were others too. These beehives get prodded when someone mentions something about them, you know.

Right.

And I'm saying that it being "artificial" isn't any sort of justification in today's world to refer to reunification as a "mistake".

[The New California Republic]

German reunification protected the GDR from the curling arms of the Russian Federation, imo.

How? Russia is a long way from Eastern Germany...

[Thermodolia]

When did Poland become Russia?

When Russia spread its sprawling influence through eastern Europe in a quasi-soviet union.

Poland is still an independent state mate

[Thermodolia]

That makes no sense.

It's also factually incorrect, because the Soviet Union did exist at the time the Reunification happened.

It pretty much didn’t. The iron curtain came down in 89. The Soviet Union was a shell of its former self

[Thermodolia]

Break up Germany and split 90% of it between Poland and France

If you don't immediately want a civil war, it requires a massive restructuring of the French state. Federalization, dropping French as the sole national language (basically, the new states within France can use German). And probably some more things.

France's track record with regards to regional languages is abysmal.

The American government would aid and support the new French and polish states. The idea of a German state will be forever crushed.

Or the remaining parts of what was Germany, once Denmark and the Netherlands get their share of Germany, can form an independent German state under joint polish and French jurisdiction

[Thermodolia]

German reunification protected the GDR from the curling arms of the Russian Federation, imo.

How? Russia is a long way from Eastern Germany...

For some reason they think Poland is apart of Russia

[North German Realm]

German reunification protected the GDR from the curling arms of the Russian Federation, imo.

How? Russia is a long way from Eastern Germany...

It wasn't long enough a way from Königsberg. If they could find a way to justify that, they'd easily justify annexing half of Germany too.

[North German Realm]

It's also factually incorrect, because the Soviet Union did exist at the time the Reunification happened.

It pretty much didn’t. The iron curtain came down in 89. The Soviet Union was a shell of its former self

Except the Soviet Union was a party to the treaties ensuring German reunification, not to mention the negotiations behind it.

[The New California Republic]

German reunification protected the GDR from the curling arms of the Russian Federation, imo.

How? Russia is a long way from Eastern Germany...

It wasn't long enough a way from Königsberg. If they could find a way to justify that, they'd easily justify annexing half of Germany too.

After the wall fell though, as that's the period that we are talking about? Russia was in no fit state to annex anyone immediately after the fall of the wall...

[Thyrgga]

Germany never reunified. It's still missing Elass, Luxemburg, Liechtenstein, Austria, and the Ostgebiete.

EDIT: and the Sudetenland

not entirely serious

[Nilrahrarfan]

Germany never reunified. It's still missing Elass, Luxemburg, Liechtenstein, Austria, and the Ostgebiete.

EDIT: and the Sudetenland

not entirely serious

This, but unironically.

[Mojave Confederation]

Germany never reunified. It's still missing Elass, Luxemburg, Liechtenstein, Austria, and the Ostgebiete.

EDIT: and the Sudetenland

not entirely serious

Agree with the Lie-Lux-Aus, with addition of 80% of Swiss. Territorial loss with nobody even speaking German anymore is moot point, though a unified German-speaking country is peak kino.

[The Blaatschapen]

Stay away from Luxembourg!

I need my tax haven

[Dumb Ideologies]

Stay away from Luxembourg!

I need my tax haven

Send it into the abyss and call the void-citizens "Nothingbourgers".

[Mojave Confederation]

Stay away from Luxembourg!

I need my tax haven

All it is good for is to be a place to store pickled herrings

[Definitely Not Trumptonium]

And why would it be given to the Poles so long after the war anyway?

Because sense can go out of the window when you have hatred for Germans.

As the popular Polish saying goes

'Which do you kill first, the German or the Russian? The Russian. Work comes before fun.'

The East-West division was an artificial one, not based upon history or culture.
Germans endured great struggle to become one nations (as did others, such as Italy).
We should not lightly dismiss this achievement.

The "moving" of Poland westwards was also artificial, and not based upon history. They literally moved the border (almost) to the Curzon Line in the East, and to the Oder-Neisse Line in the West, because...because politics said so. History is chock full of "artificial" stuff, yet we don't try to rectify all of them. Or, for that matter, even some of them.

Think you'll find the modern western border of Poland is further east than how the borders of Poland looked like exactly 1000 years beforehand when they extended to just a few miles east of modern Berlin.

Modern Poland is remarkably close to the borders agreed between Otto I and Mieszko I on the Christianisation of Poland in 967 AD. East Prussia is a reasonable 'claim', however, the southern part of the Oder-Niesse line has been Polish right up to the 18th century until annexation by Prussia, while the northern part is Pomerania, inhabited by extinct Western Slavs who were Polonised and Germanised after Swedes annexed them for a hundred years. Germany has about as much cultural claim to the Pomeranians as it does to taking back the Namibians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y_1Z5YQw-c

This video covers it fairly well.

Economically I agree. However the practicality of letting East Germany rot slowly in isolation likely would be far worse

And this really is the crux of the argument. When the wall fell, 39 percent of total GDR trade was with the USSR, with around 20 percent to other Eastern European countries. So around 60% of their trade was with nations that would suddenly become less than reliable trade partners due to the collapse of COMECON; meaning that trade for the GDR would have hit a major crisis in the 1990s, had there not been a reunification with West Germany.

In many respects, East Germany is one of the worst post-communist countries today.

In 2017, the East German unemployment rate was more than double that of the Czech Republic and Poland, for example. Wages in East Germany are lower than both of those, when adjusted for PPP.

How? Russia is a long way from Eastern Germany...

It wasn't long enough a way from Königsberg. If they could find a way to justify that, they'd easily justify annexing half of Germany too.

I think you're forgetting that "Russia" in 1939 included Belarus and Lithuania, which border Kaliningrad. When USSR split in 1991, nobody else had a claim to that area. Far-right parties in Germany and in Poland both called for the annexation of Koningsberg/Krolewiec in 1991, but the governments and society dismissed them. In Lithuania there was a semi-serious attempt at getting the province back via their President Landsbergis, but nothing ever came of it. There's also a Kaliningrad Independence Party contesting local elections, but they died out in the 1990s.

[Bears Armed]

Except not. West and East Germany reunified in 1989-90 (3 October 1990). Ukraine and Belarus existed only as part of the Soviet Union, without any authority as a sovereign state outside of it (like the modern Republics of the Russian Federation). They became sovereign nations in August 1991, and their statehood internationally recognized -at some points- later into 1992-3. At the point the 4+2 negotiations were going on, Ukraine and Belarus existed only as members of the Soviet Union, and under jurisdiction thereof. Their "internationally recognized statehood" was like that of the Republic of Dagestan. None at all. Whether or not Pomerania and (EDITED: Lower) Silesia should have been returned to Germany isn't my point, it's that Kresy should have been returned to Poland first, before any form of negotiation over German unification could start (as Germany still had claims on lands held by Poland, which it did not rescind until after the agreement).

Except that, to placate the Soviets, Belarus and the Ukraine had been given theoretically-separate seats in the UN from early on in that organisation's existence...

I think you're forgetting that "Russia" in 1939 included Belarus and Lithuania, which border Kaliningrad.

Incorrect. The Soviet Union didn't annex Lithuania until the summer of 1940.

[The New California Republic]

And this really is the crux of the argument. When the wall fell, 39 percent of total GDR trade was with the USSR, with around 20 percent to other Eastern European countries. So around 60% of their trade was with nations that would suddenly become less than reliable trade partners due to the collapse of COMECON; meaning that trade for the GDR would have hit a major crisis in the 1990s, had there not been a reunification with West Germany.

In many respects, East Germany is one of the worst post-communist countries today.

In 2017, the East German unemployment rate was more than double that of the Czech Republic and Poland, for example. Wages in East Germany are lower than both of those, when adjusted for PPP.

Ignoring for a second that East Germany isn't a separate country, many of the current economic problems in that part of Germany can be laid at the feet of the wrecking ball tactics of the Treuhand.

[The Natufian Nation]

Germany never should have formed in the first place, damn you Otto von Bismarck!. The more pieces the better. I say, bring back the Holy Roman Empire!!