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Was German Reunification a Mistake?

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Was German reunification, as it happened, a mistake?

Yes, Germany should never have been reunified
30
17%
Sort of, because it was done wrong and/or too quickly
47
26%
No
103
57%
 
Total votes : 180

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:43 am

I'll go even further to say look at the major cultural depictions of philosophy over what we pretend to believe; take Avengers, Star Wars and LOTR, even Avatar, the biggest global movies of all time, that a group of supernatural powers and beliefs are better than science, technology and, this is a disputable point.. order.

We cheer supremacist beliefs in the organic while pretending to call for equality of rights.

Hyperbole intensified.
Last edited by Bombadil on Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Walkerfort
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Postby Walkerfort » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:47 am

Pasong Tirad wrote:Yes, and quite frankly they weren't divided enough. They should have been divided into several hundred states nominally united under one head of state elected not by the general populace but by several specially-designated electors.

This all seems familiar somehow, but I can't quite place it.




it could never work.... besides we could have worse things happening if germany stayed divided, like france becoming something like nazi germany
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Neu Leonstein
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Postby Neu Leonstein » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:50 am

Bombadil wrote:To the OP.. how much do you agree with the New Statesman article?

I saw it the first time a few years back, and have thought about it ever since. I think I've settled on it mostly being a coincidence ... there clearly is a difference between west and east (as there is between north and south, of course - though that one is less political). But to track that difference back to Prussian days seems a stretch, when the more obvious cause of the GDR is so much closer. Still - the thing I always take away is how little people like Adenauer (and actually, probably a lot of our grandparents) thought of modern Germany as one thing.

But then, I see these maps of elections in various eastern European countries, and how closely it corresponds to things like the former borders of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and while those might also just be explainable coincidences, I can't help but think that institutions can have very long-lasting and often underappreciated effects.
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:55 am

District H wrote:No, not at all. But, the 2 Koreas are in a worse situation than Germany


Obviously.

Their separation is longer, and there is currently no window of opportunity to bring about a unification.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:22 am

Neu Leonstein wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:The Treuhand being allowed to close much of East German industry following reunification was a big mistake that is still having economic repercussions today.

All sorts of dodgy shit happened there, no doubt. But the fundamental issue was that at a 1:1 exchange rate east German companies were not competitive and many barely worth the scrap value of the machinery they had. Even that scrap was sold below value in many cases, but it's more of a social justice issue than a macroeconomic one.

As a case in point I read an economic report regarding the post-unification viability of VEB Pentacon, which correctly pointed out that even prior to unification the VEB was making a net loss on every camera that they were selling, because they were manufacturing every single part of the cameras themselves and assembling them all themselves. The workforce at VEB Pentacon was bloated as a result of that, and as a result the Treuhand decided that Pentacon should go to the chopping block. However, I also read another report (this was back many years ago in the 1990s, so please don't ask me to try to find it :p) that mentioned that VEB Pentacon could be restructured, so that they were producing the same good quality cameras and sell them at a profit if they offshored the manufacture and assembly of some components to Asia. It would clearly entail some job losses locally at Pentacon's places of manufacture such as Dresden etc, but many jobs would be preserved, in contrast to a full closure. But for some reason during the chaos of those days the recommendation was lost in the general noise, and VEB Pentacon was consigned to the dustbin of history (excluding a fairly recent revival of the Pentacon name, but it's a poor shadow of its former self).
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:24 am

Neu Leonstein wrote:
Bombadil wrote:To the OP.. how much do you agree with the New Statesman article?

I saw it the first time a few years back, and have thought about it ever since. I think I've settled on it mostly being a coincidence ... there clearly is a difference between west and east (as there is between north and south, of course - though that one is less political). But to track that difference back to Prussian days seems a stretch, when the more obvious cause of the GDR is so much closer. Still - the thing I always take away is how little people like Adenauer (and actually, probably a lot of our grandparents) thought of modern Germany as one thing.

But then, I see these maps of elections in various eastern European countries, and how closely it corresponds to things like the former borders of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and while those might also just be explainable coincidences, I can't help but think that institutions can have very long-lasting and often underappreciated effects.


I think cultural mythologies can have even longer-lasting and more under-appreciated effects.
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Page
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Postby Page » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:05 am

Neu Leonstein wrote:The latter is my own position. Pegging the currencies effectively pulled the rug out from under the East German economy, and was a big factor in the depression that followed and still hasn't been fully overcome. Going more slowly would also have given East Germans time to decide what sort of country they really wanted. The way it was handled, they rushed into reunification in the belief that they'd get freedom and wealth - but as their subsequent electoral choices tend to demonstrate, they've never been as open to a liberal society as those in the west are. In many ways, their preferences seem more similar to those in eastern European countries than they are to those in West Germany. It's probably too late to split things up again (at least until the EU unifies enough to allow these sorts of splits to be done easily and without causing particular disruption), but if there was a chance for a do-over, I would have given things a few years before reunification would be seriously considered.

But what say you?


What do you mean by the electoral choices of former East Germany indicating they aren't as open to a liberal society? Yes, the AfD is stronger in the East than anywhere else in Germany, but they still aren't close to the majority. There is quite a lot of support for Die Linke in the East which indicates there is a strong committment to social democracy. I'm not sure whether you meant 'liberal' in a classical or modern sense but there is definitely significant support for democracy of the left of center variety.
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Impaled Nazarene
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Postby Impaled Nazarene » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:06 am

Germany was a mistake.
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:08 am

Neu Leonstein wrote:I'm not in any of the countries you mention. Nor, in truth, does it matter a great deal because as you well know, one addresses the message rather than the messenger. And the message is that east Germany by itself would be a less liberal country, and arguably west Germany a more liberal country, than the unified one. So if east Germans preferred to build a little Hungary, they'd have been better off doing that as an independent nation.


Nah its good that they're part of Germany. At least one part that does resist the rampant merkelism those days. I dont always like their choices either, but someone got to fight when nobody else does. For this I commend the east germans.
Last edited by Nakena on Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Neu Leonstein
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Postby Neu Leonstein » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:41 am

Nakena wrote:Nah its good that they're part of Germany. At least one part that does resist the rampant merkelism those days. I dont always like their choices either, but someone got to fight when nobody else does. For this I commend the east germans.

Define "merkelism".
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:49 am

Neu Leonstein wrote:
Nakena wrote:Nah its good that they're part of Germany. At least one part that does resist the rampant merkelism those days. I dont always like their choices either, but someone got to fight when nobody else does. For this I commend the east germans.

Define "merkelism".


I suppose it is the current dominant ideology in Germany that you adhere to?
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Mutz
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Postby Mutz » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:57 am

Nakena wrote:
Neu Leonstein wrote:Define "merkelism".


I suppose it is the current dominant ideology in Germany that you adhere to?


You suppose? So the depth of your political analysis boils down to "This is a thing and thing is bad because you like it". Like, is the CDU/CSU "Merkelism"? What about the conflicts a-plenty and ideological differences in the party itself? Or the that it's ludicrous to talk about a "rampant dominant ideology" when the highest result of Merkels party in 2013 was 41.5%, never mind that e.g. the CSU pretty much always hated her?

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The Rich Union
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some what

Postby The Rich Union » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:00 am

i think if Germany was fully reunited they should have East Prussia back form Poland first

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Neu Leonstein
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Postby Neu Leonstein » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:02 am

The Rich Union wrote:i think if Germany was fully reunited they should have East Prussia back form Poland first

It was part of the 2+4 Treaty that Germany's eastern border was finally and officially set at the Oder River, and everyone's cool with that.
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North German Realm
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Postby North German Realm » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:06 am

The Rich Union wrote:i think if Germany was fully reunited they should have East Prussia back form Poland first

They specifically had to revoke their claims on East and West Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia, and Posen for any hope of German Reunification to take place though.


Neu Leonstein wrote:
The Rich Union wrote:i think if Germany was fully reunited they should have East Prussia back form Poland first

It was part of the 2+4 Treaty that Germany's eastern border was finally and officially set at the Oder River, and everyone's cool with that.

Honestly, nobody should have been. Not because of muh "lost territory" or shit like that, but because it gave legitimacy to the Soviet and Russian theft of Polish Land (the very thing that lost Germany Silesia and Pomerania in the first place).
Last edited by North German Realm on Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:10 am

Katganistan wrote:Allowing Russia to grab East Germany in the first place was the mistake. You can't blame people who were born under the communist regime there and lived their entire lives that way to magically become prosperous and loving of democracy. It'll be generations before the damage is healed.

Allies should have kept marching till they got to the sea of Japan.
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Definitely Not Trumptonium
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Postby Definitely Not Trumptonium » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:10 am

North German Realm wrote:
The Rich Union wrote:i think if Germany was fully reunited they should have East Prussia back form Poland first

They specifically had to revoke their claims on East and West Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia, and Posen for any hope of German Reunification to take place though.


Neu Leonstein wrote:It was part of the 2+4 Treaty that Germany's eastern border was finally and officially set at the Oder River, and everyone's cool with that.

Honestly, nobody should have been. Not because of muh "lost territory" or shit like that, but because it gave legitimacy to the Soviet and Russian theft of Polish Land (the very thing that lost Germany Silesia and Pomerania in the first place).


Ukraine and Belarus were independent states before German reunification, what you're proposing is annexing internationally recognised sovereign nations to give a favour to Germany.

Also, only Lower Silesia. Upper Silesia belonged to Poland since the referendums after WW1.
Last edited by Definitely Not Trumptonium on Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Neu Leonstein
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Postby Neu Leonstein » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:15 am

Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:Ukraine and Belarus were independent states before German reunification, what you're proposing is annexing internationally recognised sovereign nations to give a favour to Germany.

And a favour that Germany's people or leadership didn't ask for, want or need, at that.
“Every age and generation must be as free to act for itself in all cases as the age and generations which preceded it. The vanity and presumption of governing beyond the grave is the most ridiculous and insolent of all tyrannies. Man has no property in man; neither has any generation a property in the generations which are to follow.”
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North German Realm
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Postby North German Realm » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:16 am

Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:
North German Realm wrote:They specifically had to revoke their claims on East and West Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia, and Posen for any hope of German Reunification to take place though.



Honestly, nobody should have been. Not because of muh "lost territory" or shit like that, but because it gave legitimacy to the Soviet and Russian theft of Polish Land (the very thing that lost Germany Silesia and Pomerania in the first place).


Ukraine and Belarus were independent states before German reunification, what you're proposing is annexing internationally recognised sovereign nations to give a favour to Germany.
Except not. West and East Germany reunified in 1989-90 (3 October 1990). Ukraine and Belarus existed only as part of the Soviet Union, without any authority as a sovereign state outside of it (like the modern Republics of the Russian Federation). They became sovereign nations in August 1991, and their statehood internationally recognized -at some points- later into 1992-3. At the point the 4+2 negotiations were going on, Ukraine and Belarus existed only as members of the Soviet Union, and under jurisdiction thereof. Their "internationally recognized statehood" was like that of the Republic of Dagestan. None at all. Whether or not Pomerania and (EDITED: Lower) Silesia should have been returned to Germany isn't my point, it's that Kresy should have been returned to Poland first, before any form of negotiation over German unification could start (as Germany still had claims on lands held by Poland, which it did not rescind until after the agreement).
Last edited by North German Realm on Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Definitely Not Trumptonium
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Postby Definitely Not Trumptonium » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:19 am

North German Realm wrote:
Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:
Ukraine and Belarus were independent states before German reunification, what you're proposing is annexing internationally recognised sovereign nations to give a favour to Germany.
Except not. West and East Germany reunified in 1989-90 (3 October 1990). Ukraine and Belarus existed only as part of the Soviet Union, without any authority as a sovereign state outside of it (like the modern Republics of the Russian Federation). They became sovereign nations in August 1991, and their statehood internationally recognized -at some points- later into 1992-3. At the point the 4+2 negotiations were going on, Ukraine and Belarus existed only as members of the Soviet Union, and under jurisdiction thereof. Their "internationally recognized statehood" was like that of the Republic of Dagestan. None at all. Whether or not Pomerania and Silesia should have been returned to Germany isn't my point, it's that Kresy should have been returned to Poland first, before any form of negotiation over German unification could start (as Germany still had claims on lands held by Poland, which it did not rescind until after the agreement).


The joy of forceful expulsion of tens of millions of people once again 50 years later.

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North German Realm
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Postby North German Realm » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:20 am

Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:
North German Realm wrote:Except not. West and East Germany reunified in 1989-90 (3 October 1990). Ukraine and Belarus existed only as part of the Soviet Union, without any authority as a sovereign state outside of it (like the modern Republics of the Russian Federation). They became sovereign nations in August 1991, and their statehood internationally recognized -at some points- later into 1992-3. At the point the 4+2 negotiations were going on, Ukraine and Belarus existed only as members of the Soviet Union, and under jurisdiction thereof. Their "internationally recognized statehood" was like that of the Republic of Dagestan. None at all. Whether or not Pomerania and Silesia should have been returned to Germany isn't my point, it's that Kresy should have been returned to Poland first, before any form of negotiation over German unification could start (as Germany still had claims on lands held by Poland, which it did not rescind until after the agreement).


The joy of forceful expulsion of tens of millions of people once again 50 years later.

Whether or not Poland would forcefully expel tens of millions of people after getting Kresy and thus commit ethnic cleansing is on Poland, no? Poland, as a civilized member-state of a modern order could simply not do that if they wanted to.
Last edited by North German Realm on Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nationalist Teksas
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Postby Nationalist Teksas » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:22 am

The Roosevelt Plan should have gone through after WW2.
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Definitely Not Trumptonium
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Postby Definitely Not Trumptonium » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:22 am

North German Realm wrote:
Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:
The joy of forceful expulsion of tens of millions of people once again 50 years later.

Whether or not Poland would forcefully expel tens of millions of people after getting Kresy and thus commit ethnic cleansing is on Poland, no? Poland, as a civilized member-state of a modern order could simply not do that if they wanted to.


There's a bit of irony in mentioning being 'civilized' when your argument rests on turning people's lives upside down because Hans Owned This Land 100 Years Ago.
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Impaled Nazarene
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Postby Impaled Nazarene » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:23 am

Aclion wrote:
Katganistan wrote:Allowing Russia to grab East Germany in the first place was the mistake. You can't blame people who were born under the communist regime there and lived their entire lives that way to magically become prosperous and loving of democracy. It'll be generations before the damage is healed.

Allies should have kept marching till they got to the sea of Japan.

Them and what army? Patton's dead by that point, Bradley is a hack that took credit for victories achieved by his generals, Montgomery would get himself pinned down in the first fucking village he found like he did for all of 1944. The Soviets destroyed the majority of the Heer and Luftwaffe, have the likes of Konev who would bleed the allied forces dry, and Rokossovsky who could push on to Lisbon before American reinforcements arrived.
"marching till they got to the sea of Japan" don't make me fucking laugh. This isn't HOI4 you don't right click on Moscow and win. The Germans couldn't handle the atrocious logistics required to handle the massive Soviet front how the hell do you expect the allies to make it through even more land? The Germans besieged Leningrad for roughly 3 years and couldn't take it let alone Stalingrad or Moscow where the Soviets would be fighting down to the last able bodied man woman and child. Don't even say the Americans could have invaded from Japan and the far east, the Soviets had a big army there and I would LOVE to see the Americans who spent years fighting on semi-tropical and tropical islands suddenly have to fight in far eastern Russia and then having to cross over 8000 kilometres across SIBERIA and numerous mountains to get Europe.
The logistics of the allies attacking the Soviets who are in a far better position than they were in 1940-41 is an atrocity that'd make Vietnam look like a fucking bar fight. The Soviets aren't using garbage equipment either and unlike the Luftwaffe the Soviet Air Forces have fuel to fight a lengthy air campaign. Soviet armour is no joke either featuring functional heavy tanks, assault guns, tank destroyers, light and medium tanks which were easily mass produced, and so forth.

"marching till they got to the sea of Japan" there's a better chance of me being made a permanent admin of this website than the Allies beating the Soviets in 45-46.
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Neu Leonstein
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Postby Neu Leonstein » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:27 am

North German Realm wrote:Whether or not Poland would forcefully expel tens of millions of people after getting Kresy and thus commit ethnic cleansing is on Poland, no? Poland, as a civilized member-state of a modern order could simply not do that if they wanted to.

I suppose Germany did choose not to forcefully expel the population of the GDR...

Anyway, you do realise that the boundaries on a map are pretty irrelevant, right? It cost Germany a metric shit ton of money to even start to paper over the structural break between East and West. It would have been no cheaper to do the same for even bigger areas. And I imagine the same would have been true for Poland, had it had its borders changed again. Except that it had fewer resources to do it with.

So the whole idea is a bit silly. Past injustices were done. But the optimal solution for everyone's welfare is rarely to try and turn back the clock. Take today as the starting point, treat it as a clean slate and do the best you can from there.
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Economic Left/Right: 2.25 | Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.33
Time zone: GMT+10 (Melbourne), working full time.

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