I certainly haven't heard of either of them playing a major role in reunification either; or at least it has never popped up in any reading that I have done on the subject.
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by The New California Republic » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:33 pm
by North German Realm » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:33 pm
Vistulange wrote:Pope Joan wrote:The East-West division was an artificial one, not based upon history or culture.
Germans endured great struggle to become one nations (as did others, such as Italy).
We should not lightly dismiss this achievement.
The "moving" of Poland westwards was also artificial, and not based upon history. They literally moved the border (almost) to the Curzon Line in the East, and to the Oder-Neisse Line in the West, because...because politics said so. History is chock full of "artificial" stuff, yet we don't try to rectify all of them. Or, for that matter, even some of them.
5 Nov, 2020
Die Morgenpost: "We will reconsider our relationship with Poland" Reichskanzler Lagenmauer says after Polish president protested North German ultimatum that made them restore reproductive freedom. | European Society votes not to persecute Hungary for atrocities committed against Serbs, "Giving a rogue state leave to commit genocide as it sees fit." North German delegate bemoans. | Negotiations still underway in Rome, delegates arguing over the extent of indemnities Turkey might be made to pay, lawful status of Turkish collaborators during occupation of Azerbaijan, Cyprus, Syria.
by The South Falls » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:35 pm
by Vistulange » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:37 pm
North German Realm wrote:Vistulange wrote:The "moving" of Poland westwards was also artificial, and not based upon history. They literally moved the border (almost) to the Curzon Line in the East, and to the Oder-Neisse Line in the West, because...because politics said so. History is chock full of "artificial" stuff, yet we don't try to rectify all of them. Or, for that matter, even some of them.
Yeah, but the forced ethnic cleansing of Poles, Ukrainians, and Germans is relatively recent, compared to many other artificial stuff we don't talk about. If we're being technical, everything in history is artificial after all.
by The South Falls » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:37 pm
by North German Realm » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:39 pm
Vistulange wrote:North German Realm wrote:Yeah, but the forced ethnic cleansing of Poles, Ukrainians, and Germans is relatively recent, compared to many other artificial stuff we don't talk about. If we're being technical, everything in history is artificial after all.
And there are a lot more recent things compared to 1945, and yet, we don't try to rectify those, either. Why prod this particular beehive in 2019?
And yes, everything in history is artificial, unless one happens to believe in some sort of odd, archaic, and deterministic understanding of history.
5 Nov, 2020
Die Morgenpost: "We will reconsider our relationship with Poland" Reichskanzler Lagenmauer says after Polish president protested North German ultimatum that made them restore reproductive freedom. | European Society votes not to persecute Hungary for atrocities committed against Serbs, "Giving a rogue state leave to commit genocide as it sees fit." North German delegate bemoans. | Negotiations still underway in Rome, delegates arguing over the extent of indemnities Turkey might be made to pay, lawful status of Turkish collaborators during occupation of Azerbaijan, Cyprus, Syria.
by Vistulange » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:41 pm
North German Realm wrote:Vistulange wrote:And there are a lot more recent things compared to 1945, and yet, we don't try to rectify those, either. Why prod this particular beehive in 2019?
And yes, everything in history is artificial, unless one happens to believe in some sort of odd, archaic, and deterministic understanding of history.
This beehive was prodded on this small political forum because someone talked about it. It may have been me, but there were others too. These beehives get prodded when someone mentions something about them, you know.
by The New California Republic » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:42 pm
The South Falls wrote:German reunification protected the GDR from the curling arms of the Russian Federation, imo.
by Thermodolia » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:00 pm
by Thermodolia » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:01 pm
by Thermodolia » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:05 pm
The Blaatschapen wrote:Thermodolia wrote:Break up Germany and split 90% of it between Poland and France
If you don't immediately want a civil war, it requires a massive restructuring of the French state. Federalization, dropping French as the sole national language (basically, the new states within France can use German). And probably some more things.
France's track record with regards to regional languages is abysmal.
by Thermodolia » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:05 pm
by North German Realm » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:09 pm
5 Nov, 2020
Die Morgenpost: "We will reconsider our relationship with Poland" Reichskanzler Lagenmauer says after Polish president protested North German ultimatum that made them restore reproductive freedom. | European Society votes not to persecute Hungary for atrocities committed against Serbs, "Giving a rogue state leave to commit genocide as it sees fit." North German delegate bemoans. | Negotiations still underway in Rome, delegates arguing over the extent of indemnities Turkey might be made to pay, lawful status of Turkish collaborators during occupation of Azerbaijan, Cyprus, Syria.
by North German Realm » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:11 pm
5 Nov, 2020
Die Morgenpost: "We will reconsider our relationship with Poland" Reichskanzler Lagenmauer says after Polish president protested North German ultimatum that made them restore reproductive freedom. | European Society votes not to persecute Hungary for atrocities committed against Serbs, "Giving a rogue state leave to commit genocide as it sees fit." North German delegate bemoans. | Negotiations still underway in Rome, delegates arguing over the extent of indemnities Turkey might be made to pay, lawful status of Turkish collaborators during occupation of Azerbaijan, Cyprus, Syria.
by The New California Republic » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:14 pm
North German Realm wrote:The South Falls wrote:German reunification protected the GDR from the curling arms of the Russian Federation, imo.The New California Republic wrote:How? Russia is a long way from Eastern Germany...
It wasn't long enough a way from Königsberg. If they could find a way to justify that, they'd easily justify annexing half of Germany too.
by Thyrgga » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:44 pm
by Nilrahrarfan » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:09 pm
Thyrgga wrote:Germany never reunified. It's still missing Elass, Luxemburg, Liechtenstein, Austria, and the Ostgebiete.
EDIT: and the Sudetenlandnot entirely serious
by Mojave Confederation » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:06 am
Thyrgga wrote:Germany never reunified. It's still missing Elass, Luxemburg, Liechtenstein, Austria, and the Ostgebiete.
EDIT: and the Sudetenlandnot entirely serious
by The Blaatschapen » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:35 am
by Dumb Ideologies » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:39 am
by Mojave Confederation » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:43 am
by Definitely Not Trumptonium » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:59 am
Vistulange wrote:Pope Joan wrote:The East-West division was an artificial one, not based upon history or culture.
Germans endured great struggle to become one nations (as did others, such as Italy).
We should not lightly dismiss this achievement.
The "moving" of Poland westwards was also artificial, and not based upon history. They literally moved the border (almost) to the Curzon Line in the East, and to the Oder-Neisse Line in the West, because...because politics said so. History is chock full of "artificial" stuff, yet we don't try to rectify all of them. Or, for that matter, even some of them.
The New California Republic wrote:Internationalist Bastard wrote:Economically I agree. However the practicality of letting East Germany rot slowly in isolation likely would be far worse
And this really is the crux of the argument. When the wall fell, 39 percent of total GDR trade was with the USSR, with around 20 percent to other Eastern European countries. So around 60% of their trade was with nations that would suddenly become less than reliable trade partners due to the collapse of COMECON; meaning that trade for the GDR would have hit a major crisis in the 1990s, had there not been a reunification with West Germany.
by Bears Armed » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:05 am
North German Realm wrote:Except not. West and East Germany reunified in 1989-90 (3 October 1990). Ukraine and Belarus existed only as part of the Soviet Union, without any authority as a sovereign state outside of it (like the modern Republics of the Russian Federation). They became sovereign nations in August 1991, and their statehood internationally recognized -at some points- later into 1992-3. At the point the 4+2 negotiations were going on, Ukraine and Belarus existed only as members of the Soviet Union, and under jurisdiction thereof. Their "internationally recognized statehood" was like that of the Republic of Dagestan. None at all. Whether or not Pomerania and (EDITED: Lower) Silesia should have been returned to Germany isn't my point, it's that Kresy should have been returned to Poland first, before any form of negotiation over German unification could start (as Germany still had claims on lands held by Poland, which it did not rescind until after the agreement).
Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:I think you're forgetting that "Russia" in 1939 included Belarus and Lithuania, which border Kaliningrad.
by The New California Republic » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:11 am
Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:The New California Republic wrote:And this really is the crux of the argument. When the wall fell, 39 percent of total GDR trade was with the USSR, with around 20 percent to other Eastern European countries. So around 60% of their trade was with nations that would suddenly become less than reliable trade partners due to the collapse of COMECON; meaning that trade for the GDR would have hit a major crisis in the 1990s, had there not been a reunification with West Germany.
In many respects, East Germany is one of the worst post-communist countries today.
In 2017, the East German unemployment rate was more than double that of the Czech Republic and Poland, for example. Wages in East Germany are lower than both of those, when adjusted for PPP.
by The Natufian Nation » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:12 am
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