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Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25441
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:37 am

Torrocca wrote:
Novus America wrote:
And if you ban Nazism they will just be more subtle like in Germany.
Which will actually make them harder to track, and make it easier for them to recruit.
Saying you are a Nazi group is a great way to scare off 99.9% of the population.
Even if you are a Nazi it is better to brand yourself as something else.

So I would rather have known stupid Nazis who are easier for the government to watch and track, over forcing them to use smarter tactics.

Banning Nazism in Germany failed. For exactly these reasons.


... Not really, considering Germany's barely got a public* Nazi problem, subtle or otherwise. Denazification failed because of Cold War bullshittery that involved both sides using a fuckton of Nazis to further their goals against the other.


Public Nazis are not the really dangerous ones.
Better have them public than hidden.

And no, not just because of that.
Even Stalin failed to kill ideograms he wanted to kill.
Killing an ideology is nearly impossible.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Torrocca
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Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:37 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
It's not like it's magically impossible to ask those important questions and determine whether or not someone's a Nazi through context clues and the like.

I'd say it's very hard to come up with a satisfactory answer to all those many questions and more.


That's why investigations and due process exist. These things don't magically go away because something got banned.

The only two ultimate answers I could see to those questions are;

1. It is only acceptable to prosecute a Nazi if they are earnestly and explicitly inciting violence.

2. I am willing to accept heavy collateral damage to the rights and liberties of non-Nazis in order to prosecute Nazis.


Again, investigations and due process exist. Of course, besides that, something as monumental as eradicating Nazism would require extreme care and caution, legally.
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24992
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:38 am

Novus America wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
... Not really, considering Germany's barely got a public* Nazi problem, subtle or otherwise. Denazification failed because of Cold War bullshittery that involved both sides using a fuckton of Nazis to further their goals against the other.


Public Nazis are not the really dangerous ones.
Better have them public than hidden.


Public Nazis absolutely are the dangerous ones; if the shit's public, the ideology's capable of spreading so much more easily than it is if it's driven out of the public eye. Radicalization doesn't happen privately nearly as much as it does publicly, on things like open internet forums or the like.
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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Novus America
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Posts: 25441
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:39 am

North German Realm wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Well sure their desire to not punish everyone with the old regime was pragmatic.
But very few neo-Nazis in Germany today ever were or new a real Nazi (from the original NSDAP).

Killing an idea is nearly impossible.
Banning an ideology does not kill it.
No matter how hard you try.

Even the most totalitarian regimes (Stalin, Pol Pot, Kims) never succeeded in actually destroying all the ideologies they sought to destroy.
Banning Nazism will not stop Nazism.
You cannot stop an idea through a ban.
I'm not trying to stop them. I'm trying to neuter them. They can be nazis in their own homes and echo chambers as fucking much as they want, but a bunch of fucking Nazis in their home, mumbling Blood and Soil under their breath is no threat to Jews, the LGBT people, the Romani, the Slavs, etc. etc. Nazis marching out on the street, doing the same is. I can't make them stop being Nazis, but with some liberal use of water cannons, I can easily make them stop being Nazis in public, which is really all I'm looking for.


But why?
Matching in the street does not make them stronger.
Being open makes them weaker and easier to control.

The public ones are much less dangerous than the smarter ones.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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North German Realm
Minister
 
Posts: 2288
Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby North German Realm » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:43 am

Novus America wrote:
North German Realm wrote:I'm not trying to stop them. I'm trying to neuter them. They can be nazis in their own homes and echo chambers as fucking much as they want, but a bunch of fucking Nazis in their home, mumbling Blood and Soil under their breath is no threat to Jews, the LGBT people, the Romani, the Slavs, etc. etc. Nazis marching out on the street, doing the same is. I can't make them stop being Nazis, but with some liberal use of water cannons, I can easily make them stop being Nazis in public, which is really all I'm looking for.


But why?
Matching in the street does not make them stronger.
Being open makes them weaker and easier to control.

The public ones are much less dangerous than the smarter ones.
And the smart ones are smart enough to keep their ideology at home. If they try to bring it to the Parliament, one can use a constitutional mechanic to block it on principle, and as long as they don't act out, I have no reason to go after them.
The idiots who march out in the streets in LARP SA uniforms, waving tiki torches and Nazi Flags? Those idiots are dangerous, because being around similar idiots gives them the courage to go out and do actual, visible damage. Increase far right terrorism. Kill people. Those idiots endanger the lives of everyone they call for the extermination of by being in the streets, not by being Nazis. If every Nazi was a smart Nazi who spent their life in home, trying -and failing- to bring about the Nazi regime by law -law that would arrest anyone making Nazi-like statements regardless of political position mind you-, we'd live in a better world.
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North Germany
Norddeutschland

Poisonous gas, constant artillery barrages, machines that can mow through trenches without a halt! Will this cursed War ever end?
Overview | Kaiser | Chancellor | Legislature | Military
15 October 1910
Norddeutsche Morgenpost: Revolution in Portugal! Portuguese King flees to Berlin! Angola, Portuguese India, and Macau occupied by North Germany! Dutch, South African forces occupy neighboring Portuguese colonies accordingly. | France humiliated in Dhaka by British and Native Indian forces! | Terrorist Bombing destroys Los Angeles Times offices! | British-American Fishery dispute resolved in The Hague, Netherlands!

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Novus America
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Posts: 25441
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:44 am

Torrocca wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Public Nazis are not the really dangerous ones.
Better have them public than hidden.


Public Nazis absolutely are the dangerous ones; if the shit's public, the ideology's capable of spreading so much more easily than it is if it's driven out of the public eye. Radicalization doesn't happen privately nearly as much as it does publicly, on things like open internet forums or the like.


No.
Because the ideology is so toxic, openly proclaiming yourself a Nazi drives people away.
Makes it harder to spread. The best way to spread a totally out there ideology is via subterfuge.

Slowly bring people in, only telling the full truth once you have them fully convinced and invested.

You just sweep the problem under the rug so you can pretend it is not there.

And make it harder for the police to keep an eye on them.

The way you kill their groups is infiltrate them, so you always know where they are an what they are doing, and can bust them the second the cross the line into a crime.
Last edited by Novus America on Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Dumb Ideologies
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Posts: 40385
Founded: Sep 30, 2007
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:46 am

Torra, how would you, in an ideologically "antifascist" justice system, avoid a "Nazi panic" where people denounce the peaceable non-Nazi far right, anyone who is suspected of being in any way influenced by fascist ideas, and even moderate rightists as a way to prove their ideological zeal?

Do you acknowledge that "we know these people when we see them" is extremely dangerous when one advocates for a decentralised and revolutionary politics based on the popular energy of the masses?
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Novus America
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Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:48 am

North German Realm wrote:
Novus America wrote:
But why?
Matching in the street does not make them stronger.
Being open makes them weaker and easier to control.

The public ones are much less dangerous than the smarter ones.
And the smart ones are smart enough to keep their ideology at home. If they try to bring it to the Parliament, one can use a constitutional mechanic to block it on principle, and as long as they don't act out, I have no reason to go after them.
The idiots who march out in the streets in LARP SA uniforms, waving tiki torches and Nazi Flags? Those idiots are dangerous, because being around similar idiots gives them the courage to go out and do actual, visible damage. Increase far right terrorism. Kill people. Those idiots endanger the lives of everyone they call for the extermination of by being in the streets, not by being Nazis. If every Nazi was a smart Nazi who spent their life in home, trying -and failing- to bring about the Nazi regime by law -law that would arrest anyone making Nazi-like statements regardless of political position mind you-, we'd live in a better world.


Why do you think the smart covert ones never commit crimes?
Kill people? Commit terrorism? Recruit? They do more and do it better.
And the smart ones will easily enter your parliament by saying the are not Nazis.

You are completely off base.
Looking at things completely backwards here.
Tell me where has banning them ever worked?
Last edited by Novus America on Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Torrocca
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Posts: 24992
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:49 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Torra, how would you, in an ideologically "antifascist" justice system, avoid a "Nazi panic" where people denounce the peaceable non-Nazi far right, anyone who is suspected of being in any way influenced by fascist ideas, and even moderate rightists as a way to prove their ideological zeal?

Do you acknowledge that "we know these people when we see them" is extremely dangerous when one advocates for a decentralised and revolutionary politics based on the popular energy of the masses?


There's a reason I'm advocating for e x t r e m e c a r e a n d c a u t i o n, ensuring proper due process, and creating thorough, proper investigations in order to mitigate any potential problems as much as is realistically possible.

Also yes, because of the above.
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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The South Falls
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Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The South Falls » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:50 am

Where do we draw the line, then? What nuance do we use? Which yardstick.
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North German Realm
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Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby North German Realm » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:54 am

Novus America wrote:
North German Realm wrote:And the smart ones are smart enough to keep their ideology at home. If they try to bring it to the Parliament, one can use a constitutional mechanic to block it on principle, and as long as they don't act out, I have no reason to go after them.
The idiots who march out in the streets in LARP SA uniforms, waving tiki torches and Nazi Flags? Those idiots are dangerous, because being around similar idiots gives them the courage to go out and do actual, visible damage. Increase far right terrorism. Kill people. Those idiots endanger the lives of everyone they call for the extermination of by being in the streets, not by being Nazis. If every Nazi was a smart Nazi who spent their life in home, trying -and failing- to bring about the Nazi regime by law -law that would arrest anyone making Nazi-like statements regardless of political position mind you-, we'd live in a better world.


Why do you think the smart covert ones never commit crimes?
Kill people? Commit terrorism? Recruit? They do more and do it better.
And the smart ones will easily enter your parliament by saying the are not Nazis.

You are considered off base.
Tell me where has banning them ever worked?

I'm not, once again, talking about "banning" them. I'm talking about criminalizing the ideology and the arrest -at minimum- of its public adherents on first notice. And honestly? The ones doing the terrorism now are the morons. Why should I not stop the morons because of the possibility the smart ones might start doing the terrorism? The idiots are marching, the smart ones are organizing. If I arrest the idiots, eventually the smart ones will run out of people to organize for. The idiots are killing, the smart ones are recruiting. If I arrest people when they walk out in SS armbands -and if I give heavier punishment on a murderer who's killed as a hate crime-, the smart ones will run out of people to recruit at some point.

"Banning" Nazis doesn't work, because ideologies don't die. Stopping Nazis is pretty easy if you stick by your principles. A bunch of drunken fascists marching in Munich under a putsch? Shoot the fuck all of them while they're marching and you won't have to risk some well-spoken fucker writing a book about his petty problems with everyone not White, Blonde, and Blue while in prison. Risk "I can't arrest these morons, the smart ones might get more subtle" and eventually, you have a problem.
Last edited by North German Realm on Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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------------------
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North Germany
Norddeutschland

Poisonous gas, constant artillery barrages, machines that can mow through trenches without a halt! Will this cursed War ever end?
Overview | Kaiser | Chancellor | Legislature | Military
15 October 1910
Norddeutsche Morgenpost: Revolution in Portugal! Portuguese King flees to Berlin! Angola, Portuguese India, and Macau occupied by North Germany! Dutch, South African forces occupy neighboring Portuguese colonies accordingly. | France humiliated in Dhaka by British and Native Indian forces! | Terrorist Bombing destroys Los Angeles Times offices! | British-American Fishery dispute resolved in The Hague, Netherlands!

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Torrocca
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Posts: 24992
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:54 am

The South Falls wrote:Where do we draw the line, then?


Between Nazism and its dog-whistles and... everything else?
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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Torrocca
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Posts: 24992
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:57 am

North German Realm wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Why do you think the smart covert ones never commit crimes?
Kill people? Commit terrorism? Recruit? They do more and do it better.
And the smart ones will easily enter your parliament by saying the are not Nazis.

You are considered off base.
Tell me where has banning them ever worked?

I'm not, once again, talking about "banning" them. I'm talking about criminalizing the ideology and the arrest -at minimum- of its public adherents on first notice. And honestly? The ones doing the terrorism now are the morons. Why should I not stop the morons because of the possibility the smart ones might start doing the terrorism? The idiots are marching, the smart ones are organizing. If I arrest the idiots, eventually the smart ones will run out of people to organize for. The idiots are killing, the smart ones are recruiting. If I arrest people when they walk out in SS armbands -and if I give heavier punishment on a murderer who's killed as a hate crime-, the smart ones will run out of people to recruit at some point.

"Banning" Nazis doesn't work, because ideologies don't die. Stopping Nazis is pretty easy if you stick by your principles. A bunch of drunken fascists marching in Munich under a putsch? Shoot the fuck all of them while they're marching and you won't have to risk some well-spoken fucker writing a book about his petty problems with everyone not White, Blonde, and Blue while in prison. Risk "I can't arrest these morons, the smart ones might get more subtle" and eventually, you have a problem.


Yeah, driving the smart ones underground, as well, creates a natural deterrent to recruitment. How are the ones prone to committing terrorism and violence in the name of Nazism going to find avenues for recruitment if they're not public, like something like Stormfront is?
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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The South Falls
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Posts: 12357
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The South Falls » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:58 am

Torrocca wrote:
The South Falls wrote:Where do we draw the line, then?


Between Nazism and its dog-whistles and... everything else?

No, I mean between what is a dangerous ideology and what is not? If I say that anarcho-communism is dangerous, and get enough people behind me, can I put you in jail?
This is an MT nation that reflects some of my beliefs, trade deals and debate always welcome! Call me TeaSF. A level 8, according to This Index.


Political Compass Results:

Economic: -6.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.28
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Torrocca
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Posts: 24992
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:00 am

The South Falls wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Between Nazism and its dog-whistles and... everything else?

No, I mean between what is a dangerous ideology and what is not? If I say that anarcho-communism is dangerous, and get enough people behind me, can I put you in jail?


I mean, you probably could do that legally, if you could successfully prove that Anarcho-Communism has a danger potential akin to, say, Nazism and its genocidal goals, assuming we had a justice system that was anti-Nazi.
Last edited by Torrocca on Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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The Xenopolis Confederation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7453
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:02 am

Torrocca wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:I'd say it's very hard to come up with a satisfactory answer to all those many questions and more.


That's why investigations and due process exist. These things don't magically go away because something got banned.

The only two ultimate answers I could see to those questions are;

1. It is only acceptable to prosecute a Nazi if they are earnestly and explicitly inciting violence.

2. I am willing to accept heavy collateral damage to the rights and liberties of non-Nazis in order to prosecute Nazis.


Again, investigations and due process exist. Of course, besides that, something as monumental as eradicating Nazism would require extreme care and caution, legally.

While it's encouraging to see you're supportive of due process rather than "bash the fash" vigilante justice, none of my questions are answered by due process alone, in fact all my questions were assuming we practiced due process.

It's also worth noting that you will need to choose between due process/presumption of innocence and, as you put it, "eradicating Nazism." Presumption of innocence and erradication campaigns don't mix.
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The Emerald Legion
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6694
Founded: Mar 18, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby The Emerald Legion » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:04 am

Torrocca wrote:
The South Falls wrote:No, I mean between what is a dangerous ideology and what is not? If I say that anarcho-communism is dangerous, and get enough people behind me, can I put you in jail?


I mean, you probably could do that legally, if you could successfully prove that Anarcho-Communism has a danger potential akin to, say, Nazism and its genocidal goals, assuming we had a justice system that was anti-Nazi.


Which we don't because such a thing would be unconstitutional.
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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
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Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:05 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
That's why investigations and due process exist. These things don't magically go away because something got banned.



Again, investigations and due process exist. Of course, besides that, something as monumental as eradicating Nazism would require extreme care and caution, legally.

While it's encouraging to see you're supportive of due process rather than "bash the fash" vigilante justice, none of my questions are answered by due process alone, in fact all my questions were assuming we practiced due process.

It's also worth noting that you will need to choose between due process/presumption of innocence and, as you put it, "eradicating Nazism." Presumption of innocence and erradication campaigns don't mix.


You can still uphold due process and the presumption of innocence with Nazism criminalized. The whole point of the presumption of innocence is to prove guilt, not to prove innocence; in that regard, it'd make thorough investigative work (that, again, would absolutely need to be handled with EXTREME care and caution) all the more important.
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 185242
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:11 am

Unstoppable Empire of Doom wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
I saw their rallies, twice, in Lansing. Never seen them around here in AR. Despite living an hour away from one of their HQs.

Here in south Carolina it is a yearly thing. Never saw any in Detroit but I guess Lansing might since it is the capitol. I suspect they are always vastly outnumbered by counter protesters and police.


Pretty much. It was just a few of them. Heck, even without protestors around, the police contingency present outnumbered them. But yes, between protestors and police, they were quite outnumbered.

I’m from Spain. Seeing that was... like stepping into another dimension.
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The Xenopolis Confederation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7453
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:17 am

Torrocca wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:While it's encouraging to see you're supportive of due process rather than "bash the fash" vigilante justice, none of my questions are answered by due process alone, in fact all my questions were assuming we practiced due process.

It's also worth noting that you will need to choose between due process/presumption of innocence and, as you put it, "eradicating Nazism." Presumption of innocence and erradication campaigns don't mix.


You can still uphold due process and the presumption of innocence with Nazism criminalized. The whole point of the presumption of innocence is to prove guilt, not to prove innocence; in that regard, it'd make thorough investigative work (that, again, would absolutely need to be handled with EXTREME care and caution) all the more important.

Yes, you can theoretically, but that still doesn't answer my questions. To reiterate, is attending an explicitly 100% Nazi rally evidence enough? What about a Unite the Right style rally? Are other third positionist and/or far right ideologies criminalized as well? Can internet activity be admitted as evidence? If so, what if the accused insists it was ironic? How credible must that insistence be to have them acquitted? Would you convict; Spencer? Southern? Watson? Shapiro? Pool? Where's the line drawn there? How can you make it so that people who expressed Nazi talking points and meant it can't "it was ironic" out, while ensuring that people who expressed Nazi points and didn't mean it still can't?

These are questions which all must be meticulously answered, even if you support due process.
Last edited by The Xenopolis Confederation on Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25441
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:20 am

North German Realm wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Why do you think the smart covert ones never commit crimes?
Kill people? Commit terrorism? Recruit? They do more and do it better.
And the smart ones will easily enter your parliament by saying the are not Nazis.

You are considered off base.
Tell me where has banning them ever worked?

I'm not, once again, talking about "banning" them. I'm talking about criminalizing the ideology and the arrest -at minimum- of its public adherents on first notice. And honestly? The ones doing the terrorism now are the morons. Why should I not stop the morons because of the possibility the smart ones might start doing the terrorism? The idiots are marching, the smart ones are organizing. If I arrest the idiots, eventually the smart ones will run out of people to organize for. The idiots are killing, the smart ones are recruiting. If I arrest people when they walk out in SS armbands -and if I give heavier punishment on a murderer who's killed as a hate crime-, the smart ones will run out of people to recruit at some point.

"Banning" Nazis doesn't work, because ideologies don't die. Stopping Nazis is pretty easy if you stick by your principles. A bunch of drunken fascists marching in Munich under a putsch? Shoot the fuck all of them while they're marching and you won't have to risk some well-spoken fucker writing a book about his petty problems with everyone not White, Blonde, and Blue while in prison. Risk "I can't arrest these morons, the smart ones might get more subtle" and eventually, you have a problem.


Before we go further answer the question. Where has what you proposed ever worked?

You are assuming everyone is a potential Nazi and will turn Nazi if they see Nazis.
Like they are zombies or something.

It does not work that way. There is a societal ceiling on their growth, the vast majority of people will never even consider what an open Nazi is calling for. Will never join a openly Nazi group.
It is not like people seeing 15 idiots bumbling around will make them suddenly become Nazis.
By being openly Nazi the have ensured they will never get far.

And do not say “what about Hitler”. That was before people knew what it was and what it would become.

There will never be a Nazi takeover in the US. Ever.
If we fall to an authoritarian crazy ideology it will call itself something different, use different symbols and actually have substantively different policies.

And if letting people march makes the problem spread out of control, what about US Communists?
We never banned their ideology. But we crushed them in the 50s.

While still letting them march.
Last edited by Novus America on Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nilrahrarfan
Diplomat
 
Posts: 508
Founded: Sep 02, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Nilrahrarfan » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:36 am

Druulis wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Being a literal Nazi isn't against the rules.


It should be.

That's like saying that Tentacle Hentai should be against the rules of PornHub

It may give moral guardians even MORE creeps than usual, but it shouldn't be banned.
Torrocca wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Because human rights are for all humans. To be protected by police is a right. Being a Nazi doesn't mean you're not a human anymore. Even if we make Nazism a crime, they would still be entitled to police protection, and must be punished through the mechanisms of due process and the legal system. Even murderers are entitled to police protection. The only way you could really say a Nazi isn't entitled to police protection is if you say a Nazi is not a human.


Nazis aren't any less human because they're Nazis, but their ideology has absolutely no place in any society, and should be removed from it - nonviolently, as much as is possible, of course, and only violently in self-defense or in defense of other people.

Not gonna happen, because once the cat is out of the bag, it's basically impossible to put it back in. You're just using wishful thinking.
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Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 59572
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:37 am

Druulis wrote:
Galloism wrote:Why do people keep saying this?

Police should, and did, protect everyone. You don't lose your right to police services by being a nazi.


Why shouldn't you?

Because society shouldn't endorse or tolerate vigilante justice (except it's not even justice, we're talking being murdered for saying shitty things).
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Nilrahrarfan
Diplomat
 
Posts: 508
Founded: Sep 02, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Nilrahrarfan » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:39 am

Torrocca wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:While it's encouraging to see you're supportive of due process rather than "bash the fash" vigilante justice, none of my questions are answered by due process alone, in fact all my questions were assuming we practiced due process.

It's also worth noting that you will need to choose between due process/presumption of innocence and, as you put it, "eradicating Nazism." Presumption of innocence and erradication campaigns don't mix.


You can still uphold due process and the presumption of innocence with Nazism criminalized. The whole point of the presumption of innocence is to prove guilt, not to prove innocence; in that regard, it'd make thorough investigative work (that, again, would absolutely need to be handled with EXTREME care and caution) all the more important.

Yeah, but that doesn't matter when the first amendment exists. As long as there is true democracy, there is gonna be a fascist party out there, no matter how big or small it is. The only way to eradicate Nazism is to create a Totalitarian Dictatorship. In fact, I'm even gonna say that every nation is fascist to some degree (yes, this includes anarchism p.).
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The Xenopolis Confederation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7453
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:39 am

Nilrahrarfan wrote:
Druulis wrote:
It should be.

That's like saying that Tentacle Hentai should be against the rules of PornHub

It may give moral guardians even MORE creeps than usual, but it shouldn't be banned.
Torrocca wrote:
Nazis aren't any less human because they're Nazis, but their ideology has absolutely no place in any society, and should be removed from it - nonviolently, as much as is possible, of course, and only violently in self-defense or in defense of other people.

Not gonna happen, because once the cat is out of the bag, it's basically impossible to put it back in. You're just using wishful thinking.

I'm sure that as a Nazi, you apply your opposition to banning things in a very consistent and principled mammer.
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