Nazis disrupt Detroit gay pride parade

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

Strange, I was born and raised in Detroit and never saw a neo nazi or kkk. Moved south and they are everywhere.

I saw their rallies, twice, in Lansing. Never seen them around here in AR. Despite living an hour away from one of their HQs.

Here in south Carolina it is a yearly thing. Never saw any in Detroit but I guess Lansing might since it is the capitol. I suspect they are always vastly outnumbered by counter protesters and police.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Because human rights are for all humans. To be protected by police is a right. Being a Nazi doesn't mean you're not a human anymore. Even if we make Nazism a crime, they would still be entitled to police protection, and must be punished through the mechanisms of due process and the legal system. Even murderers are entitled to police protection. The only way you could really say a Nazi isn't entitled to police protection is if you say a Nazi is not a human.

Nazis aren't any less human because they're Nazis, but their ideology has absolutely no place in any society, and should be removed from it - nonviolently, as much as is possible, of course, and only violently in self-defense or in defense of other people.

Whether Nazism should be stopped by force is one thing. However, they are still entitled to police protection regardless in the same way that murderers are. There's no way we should treat those guilty of housing murderous beliefs worse than we treat those guilty of committing murderous actions.

[Torrocca]

Nazis aren't any less human because they're Nazis, but their ideology has absolutely no place in any society, and should be removed from it - nonviolently, as much as is possible, of course, and only violently in self-defense or in defense of other people.

Whether Nazism should be stopped by force is one thing. However, they are still entitled to police protection regardless in the same way that murderers are. There's no way we should treat those guilty of housing murderous beliefs worse than we treat those guilty of committing murderous actions.

Well, yeah, obviously. We shouldn't be monsters because they choose to be. Either way, Nazism needs to be removed from society, though.

[The Emerald Legion]

Why?

[North German Realm]

Whether Nazism should be stopped by force is one thing. However, they are still entitled to police protection regardless in the same way that murderers are. There's no way we should treat those guilty of housing murderous beliefs worse than we treat those guilty of committing murderous actions.

Well, yeah, obviously. We shouldn't be monsters because they choose to be. Either way, Nazism needs to be removed from society, though.

I disagree. We should be monsters. Fuck "it might make them martyrs". Any Nazi that is marching on the street, waving a Swasitka flag, is a traitor to whatever state and nation they live in who's explicitly calling for its violent overthrow and the murder of many of its subjects (unless it's Nazi Germany, I guess?), and should face the punishment of treason to its full extent.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Because human rights are for all humans. To be protected by police is a right. Being a Nazi doesn't mean you're not a human anymore. Even if we make Nazism a crime, they would still be entitled to police protection, and must be punished through the mechanisms of due process and the legal system. Even murderers are entitled to police protection. The only way you could really say a Nazi isn't entitled to police protection is if you say a Nazi is not a human.

Nazis aren't any less human because they're Nazis, but their ideology has absolutely no place in any society, and should be removed from it - nonviolently, as much as is possible, of course, and only violently in self-defense or in defense of other people.

Can we operationalise this a bit - without more information on the "trigger points" it's hard to see what precisely you're advocating.

Who gets to decide who qualifies as a "Nazi", and at what point is the right of violent self-defence and self-appointed community defence against said groups activated - at the point when someone is offended, at the point where they unequivocally advocate violence, or at the point of them actively engaging in violence?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Well, yeah, obviously. We shouldn't be monsters because they choose to be. Either way, Nazism needs to be removed from society, though.

I disagree. We should be monsters. Fuck "it might make them martyrs". Any Nazi that is marching on the street, waving a Swasitka flag, is a traitor to whatever state and nation they live in who's explicitly calling for its violent overthrow and the murder of many of its subjects (unless it's Nazi Germany, I guess?), and should face the punishment of treason to its full extent.

We should never be monsters. And charging people promoting an alien ideology with "treason" sets a bad precedent.

[Novus America]

Because human rights are for all humans. To be protected by police is a right. Being a Nazi doesn't mean you're not a human anymore. Even if we make Nazism a crime, they would still be entitled to police protection, and must be punished through the mechanisms of due process and the legal system. Even murderers are entitled to police protection. The only way you could really say a Nazi isn't entitled to police protection is if you say a Nazi is not a human.

Nazis aren't any less human because they're Nazis, but their ideology has absolutely no place in any society, and should be removed from it - nonviolently, as much as is possible, of course, and only violently in self-defense or in defense of other people.

Removing an ideology is nearly impossible.
Germany tried to remove Nazism completely.
It failed.
Banning an ideology does not end it.
It is actually often counterproductive.
Sometimes makes it more popular.
Europe despite many countries banning Nazism has a worse Nazi problem than we do.

While definitely I would like Nazism to disappear, ideas are very hard to destroy.

[North German Realm]

I disagree. We should be monsters. Fuck "it might make them martyrs". Any Nazi that is marching on the street, waving a Swasitka flag, is a traitor to whatever state and nation they live in who's explicitly calling for its violent overthrow and the murder of many of its subjects (unless it's Nazi Germany, I guess?), and should face the punishment of treason to its full extent.

We should never be monsters. And charging people promoting an alien ideology with "treason" sets a bad precedent.

No. We absolutely should. Civilized and humanitarian conduct with people who are by their very inherent ideology not civilized -quite literally the opposite of it- is only detrimental. And "precedent" is for chumps who can't be arsed decide every situation and instead have to use one situation for everyone. A Nazi waving the Swastika is literally calling for the violent murder of, at the very least, Jews, LGBT people, Disabled people, and other people they consider subhuman (this really depends. Slavs and Romani people are usually on the list though). To consider an ideology that is literally "let's cause the genocide of X people and take their lands because we're superior" is not one that should be considered legitimate as an "alien ideology".

[Torrocca]

Well, yeah, obviously. We shouldn't be monsters because they choose to be. Either way, Nazism needs to be removed from society, though.

I disagree. We should be monsters. Fuck "it might make them martyrs". Any Nazi that is marching on the street, waving a Swasitka flag, is a traitor to whatever state and nation they live in who's explicitly calling for its violent overthrow and the murder of many of its subjects (unless it's Nazi Germany, I guess?), and should face the punishment of treason to its full extent.

We should absolutely destroy Nazism, but there's no reason to be monstrous in going about it. Nazism's goals are monstrosities of the highest order, as we all know, but eradicating Nazism is, in essence, the exact opposite of that, and it ought to stay that way.

Nazis aren't any less human because they're Nazis, but their ideology has absolutely no place in any society, and should be removed from it - nonviolently, as much as is possible, of course, and only violently in self-defense or in defense of other people.

Who gets to decide who qualifies as a "Nazi",

... It's not really that hard to figure out who the Nazis are, seeing as how they're so keen recently toward showing their faces in public.

and at what point is the right of violent self-defence and self-appointed community defence against said groups activated - at the point when someone is offended, at the point where they unequivocally advocate violence, or at the point of them actively engaging in violence?

Presumably at the same point self-defense is usually argued to be allowed. Otherwise, non-violent, proactive deterrents and other activities would be better for stopping Nazis, if they're only just advocating their genocidal ideology, up until they actually begin committing violence.

[North German Realm]

Nazis aren't any less human because they're Nazis, but their ideology has absolutely no place in any society, and should be removed from it - nonviolently, as much as is possible, of course, and only violently in self-defense or in defense of other people.

Removing an ideology is nearly impossible.
Germany tried to remove Nazism completely.
It failed.
Banning an ideology does not end it.

While definitely I would like Nazism to disappear, ideas are very hard to destroy.

Germany (and really, the Allied occupation) failed because their pragmatic decision that "We might go to war with the USSR and might need the Nazis' knowledge and help" was the main reason why denazification didn't continue to its natural conclusion. Never mistake Germans cancelling denazification as "it wasn't possible". It just wasn't beneficial.

[The Emerald Legion]

I disagree. We should be monsters. Fuck "it might make them martyrs". Any Nazi that is marching on the street, waving a Swasitka flag, is a traitor to whatever state and nation they live in who's explicitly calling for its violent overthrow and the murder of many of its subjects (unless it's Nazi Germany, I guess?), and should face the punishment of treason to its full extent.

We should absolutely destroy Nazism, but there's no reason to be monstrous in going about it. Nazism's goals are monstrosities of the highest order, as we all know, but eradicating Nazism is, in essence, the exact opposite of that, and it ought to stay that way.

Who gets to decide who qualifies as a "Nazi",

... It's not really that hard to figure out who the Nazis are, seeing as how they're so keen recently toward showing their faces in public.

and at what point is the right of violent self-defence and self-appointed community defence against said groups activated - at the point when someone is offended, at the point where they unequivocally advocate violence, or at the point of them actively engaging in violence?

Presumably at the same point self-defense is usually argued to be allowed. Otherwise, non-violent, proactive deterrents and other activities would be better for stopping Nazis, if they're only just advocating their genocidal ideology, up until they actually begin committing violence.

It's actually extremely difficult apparently.

Either that or 90% of the human race are secretly Nazis and this is all one very very amusing case of the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

[Torrocca]

We should absolutely destroy Nazism, but there's no reason to be monstrous in going about it. Nazism's goals are monstrosities of the highest order, as we all know, but eradicating Nazism is, in essence, the exact opposite of that, and it ought to stay that way.



... It's not really that hard to figure out who the Nazis are, seeing as how they're so keen recently toward showing their faces in public.



Presumably at the same point self-defense is usually argued to be allowed. Otherwise, non-violent, proactive deterrents and other activities would be better for stopping Nazis, if they're only just advocating their genocidal ideology, up until they actually begin committing violence.

It's actually extremely difficult apparently.

Either that or 90% of the human race are secretly Nazis and this is all one very very amusing case of the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

... It's not really that hard to figure out who the Nazis are, seeing as how they're so keen recently toward showing their faces in public.

Wrong. There are waaaaaay to many variables. Sure, maybe someone marching in draped in swastikas is probably a Nazi. But what about someone marching in the same rally of them holding an American flag or a Gadsden flag instead? In an explicitly 100% Nazi rally, is it ethical to perform mass arrests even if we made Nazism a crime? What about a Unite the Right type deal where not everyone is explicitly a Nazi? Are other forms of third positionists safe or not? What if someone expresses Nazi views on the internet only to troll people, not out of sincere belief? Would Richard Spencer be charged? Yes? How about Black Pigeon Speaks? Yes? How about Lauren Southern? Yes? How about Alex Jones? Yes? How about Ben Shapiro? Yes? How about Tim Pool? Do you only prosecute explicit Nazis, or dogwhistlers too? How can you make it so that Nazis don't have an easy way to plead not guilty and say "I didn't mean that." or "it's not what you think" without making it impossible for a non-Nazi to defend themselves from the charge of being a Nazi? There are a lot of questions about where the line is drawn in multiple dimensions, because banning ideologies is extremely tricky business.

[The Emerald Legion]

It's actually extremely difficult apparently.

Either that or 90% of the human race are secretly Nazis and this is all one very very amusing case of the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

It's almost like you don't get my point. Or are will fully ignoring it because you want the collateral damage to happen.

[Torrocca]

... It's not really that hard to figure out who the Nazis are, seeing as how they're so keen recently toward showing their faces in public.

Wrong. There are waaaaaay to many variables. Sure, maybe someone marching in draped in swastikas is probably a Nazi. But what about someone marching in the same rally of them holding an American flag or a Gadsden flag instead? In an explicitly 100% Nazi rally, is it ethical to perform mass arrests even if we made Nazism a crime? What about a Unite the Right type deal where not everyone is explicitly a Nazi? Are other forms of third positionists safe or not? What if someone expresses Nazi views on the internet only to troll people, not out of sincere belief? Would Richard Spencer be charged? Yes? How about Black Pigeon Speaks? Yes? How about Lauren Southern? Yes? How about Alex Jones? Yes? How about Ben Shapiro? Yes? How about Tim Pool? Do you only prosecute explicit Nazis, or dogwhistlers too? How can you make it so that Nazis don't have an easy way to plead not guilty and say "I didn't mean that." or "it's not what you think" without making it impossible for a non-Nazi to defend themselves from the charge of being a Nazi? There are a lot of questions about where the line is drawn in multiple dimensions, because banning ideologies is extremely tricky business.

It's not like it's magically impossible to ask those important questions and determine whether or not someone's a Nazi through context clues and the like.

[Proctopeo]

Wrong. There are waaaaaay to many variables. Sure, maybe someone marching in draped in swastikas is probably a Nazi. But what about someone marching in the same rally of them holding an American flag or a Gadsden flag instead? In an explicitly 100% Nazi rally, is it ethical to perform mass arrests even if we made Nazism a crime? What about a Unite the Right type deal where not everyone is explicitly a Nazi? Are other forms of third positionists safe or not? What if someone expresses Nazi views on the internet only to troll people, not out of sincere belief? Would Richard Spencer be charged? Yes? How about Black Pigeon Speaks? Yes? How about Lauren Southern? Yes? How about Alex Jones? Yes? How about Ben Shapiro? Yes? How about Tim Pool? Do you only prosecute explicit Nazis, or dogwhistlers too? How can you make it so that Nazis don't have an easy way to plead not guilty and say "I didn't mean that." or "it's not what you think" without making it impossible for a non-Nazi to defend themselves from the charge of being a Nazi? There are a lot of questions about where the line is drawn in multiple dimensions, because banning ideologies is extremely tricky business.

It's not like it's magically impossible to ask those important questions and determine whether or not someone's a Nazi through context clues and the like.

That doesn't answer Xenopolis's concerns.

[Novus America]

It's actually extremely difficult apparently.

Either that or 90% of the human race are secretly Nazis and this is all one very very amusing case of the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

And if you ban Nazism they will just be more subtle like in Germany.
Which will actually make them harder to track, and make it easier for them to recruit.
Saying you are a Nazi group is a great way to scare off 99.9% of the population.
Even if you are a Nazi it is better to brand yourself as something else.

So I would rather have known stupid Nazis who are easier for the government to watch and track, over forcing them to use smarter tactics.

Banning Nazism in Germany failed. For exactly these reasons.

[Torrocca]

It's almost like you don't get my point. Or are will fully ignoring it because you want the collateral damage to happen.

Does "investigations" ring a bell? Or are we just going to pretend that if Nazism's banned there's suddenly going to be mass-arrests, disappearances, etc.?

[North German Realm]

It's almost like you don't get my point. Or are will fully ignoring it because you want the collateral damage to happen.

It's more that you don't have a point. Nobody's saying "we should go door-to-dooring and kill anyone who's a Nazi". There's no way to know who a closet Nazi is for sure (until they open their mouth, anyway), and the idea of literally gestapo-ing the way to denazification is stupid in and of itself. However, if you can't recognize a Nazi when they're out in the street as a Nazi, you're the one who has a problem.

[Novus America]

Removing an ideology is nearly impossible.
Germany tried to remove Nazism completely.
It failed.
Banning an ideology does not end it.

While definitely I would like Nazism to disappear, ideas are very hard to destroy.

Germany (and really, the Allied occupation) failed because their pragmatic decision that "We might go to war with the USSR and might need the Nazis' knowledge and help" was the main reason why denazification didn't continue to its natural conclusion. Never mistake Germans cancelling denazification as "it wasn't possible". It just wasn't beneficial.

Well sure their desire to not punish everyone with the old regime was pragmatic.
But very few neo-Nazis in Germany today ever were or new a real Nazi (from the original NSDAP).

Killing an idea is nearly impossible.
Banning an ideology does not kill it.
No matter how hard you try.

Even the most totalitarian regimes (Stalin, Pol Pot, Kims) never succeeded in actually destroying all the ideologies they sought to destroy.
Banning Nazism will not stop Nazism.
You cannot stop an idea through a ban.

[Torrocca]

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And if you ban Nazism they will just be more subtle like in Germany.
Which will actually make them harder to track, and make it easier for them to recruit.
Saying you are a Nazi group is a great way to scare off 99.9% of the population.
Even if you are a Nazi it is better to brand yourself as something else.

So I would rather have known stupid Nazis who are easier for the government to watch and track, over forcing them to use smarter tactics.

Banning Nazism in Germany failed. For exactly these reasons.

... Not really, considering Germany's barely got a public* Nazi problem, subtle or otherwise. Denazification failed because of Cold War bullshittery that involved both sides using a fuckton of Nazis to further their goals against the other.

[Novus America]

It's almost like you don't get my point. Or are will fully ignoring it because you want the collateral damage to happen.

It's more that you don't have a point. Nobody's saying "we should go door-to-dooring and kill anyone who's a Nazi". There's no way to know who a closet Nazi is for sure (until they open their mouth, anyway), and the idea of literally gestapo-ing the way to denazification is stupid in and of itself. However, if you can't recognize a Nazi when they're out in the street as a Nazi, you're the one who has a problem.

Yes.
So it is better if you can recognize them!
Ban it and your job becomes much harder.
Also by openly calling themselves Nazis they dramatically reduce their recruiting potential plus banning it gives it the allure of the forbidden.

[North German Realm]

Germany (and really, the Allied occupation) failed because their pragmatic decision that "We might go to war with the USSR and might need the Nazis' knowledge and help" was the main reason why denazification didn't continue to its natural conclusion. Never mistake Germans cancelling denazification as "it wasn't possible". It just wasn't beneficial.

Well sure their desire to not punish everyone with the old regime was pragmatic.
But very few neo-Nazis in Germany today ever were or new a real Nazi (from the original NSDAP).

Killing an idea is nearly impossible.
Banning an ideology does not kill it.
No matter how hard you try.

Even the most totalitarian regimes (Stalin, Pol Pot, Kims) never succeeded in actually destroying all the ideologies they sought to destroy.
Banning Nazism will not stop Nazism.
You cannot stop an idea through a ban.

I'm not trying to stop them. I'm trying to neuter them. They can be nazis in their own homes and echo chambers as fucking much as they want, but a bunch of fucking Nazis in their home, mumbling Blood and Soil under their breath is no threat to Jews, the LGBT people, the Romani, the Slavs, etc. etc. Nazis marching out on the street, doing the same is. I can't make them stop being Nazis, but with some liberal use of water cannons, I can easily make them stop being Nazis in public, which is really all I'm looking for.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Wrong. There are waaaaaay to many variables. Sure, maybe someone marching in draped in swastikas is probably a Nazi. But what about someone marching in the same rally of them holding an American flag or a Gadsden flag instead? In an explicitly 100% Nazi rally, is it ethical to perform mass arrests even if we made Nazism a crime? What about a Unite the Right type deal where not everyone is explicitly a Nazi? Are other forms of third positionists safe or not? What if someone expresses Nazi views on the internet only to troll people, not out of sincere belief? Would Richard Spencer be charged? Yes? How about Black Pigeon Speaks? Yes? How about Lauren Southern? Yes? How about Alex Jones? Yes? How about Ben Shapiro? Yes? How about Tim Pool? Do you only prosecute explicit Nazis, or dogwhistlers too? How can you make it so that Nazis don't have an easy way to plead not guilty and say "I didn't mean that." or "it's not what you think" without making it impossible for a non-Nazi to defend themselves from the charge of being a Nazi? There are a lot of questions about where the line is drawn in multiple dimensions, because banning ideologies is extremely tricky business.

It's not like it's magically impossible to ask those important questions and determine whether or not someone's a Nazi through context clues and the like.

I'd say it's very hard to come up with a satisfactory answer to all those many questions and more. The only two ultimate answers I could see to those questions are;

1. It is only acceptable to prosecute a Nazi if they are earnestly and explicitly inciting violence.

2. I am willing to accept heavy collateral damage to the rights and liberties of non-Nazis in order to prosecute Nazis.

Context clues are unreliable as a method of ascertaining whether or not one is a Nazi. Some Nazis are, strangely enough, smart and won't display any signs. Whereas I personally know plenty of non-Nazis who bear many signs of Nazism.