NATION

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The Mountain and the River

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Which option do you choose?

Option 1 (I told the commander, "If I talk I walk," I talked... now I'm walking)
8
44%
Option 2 (FOR THE RIVER KINGDOM! TO THE DEATH FINAL!"
10
56%
 
Total votes : 18

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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

The Mountain and the River

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:33 pm

Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are a powerful noble in the River Kingdom.

One day the Mountain Kingdom starts a war against your kingdom. You call up your bannermen and your knights and fight alongside your family.
The war goes badly for the River Kingdom. The Mountain Kingdom wins many battles; they proceed to slaughter many towns and villages. The vast majority of your relatives are killed in battle or executed. You find yourself captured after a particularly pitched battle.

While under captivity, you are treated very badly. The Mountain people move you around in a cage and keep you in chains. They feed you disgusting gruel and they never let you out of your cage (I’ll spare you the details about your toiletry but you get the idea). Since it rains a lot in the River Kingdom, it gets really nasty and muddy outdoors too.

You remain a captive of the Mountain Kingdom for years, during this time, you are severely hurt and damaged on a physical and psychological level.

After a few years of war, the only nobleman of importance on your side is your distant uncle. Your uncle has always been rather hard on you (in fact, he considers you to be kind of an idiot, somewhat unfairly). Your uncle tries his best to defeat the Mountain people in pitched battles, after this fails, he takes what’s left of his army and retreats to a big castle where he intends to fight to the death.

The giant Mountain army, outnumbering your people five to one, surround the castle and prepare to lay siege to it.

The commander of the Mountain Army has had enough of the fighting and the bloodshed and so he offers your uncle a peaceful surrender (“Surrender the castle, and I promise to let you and your men leave the country as exiles unharmed”).

Your uncle tells the Mountain Army, “WE WILL NEVER SURRENDER. This is my home, and I will fight to the end. You can and will probably take us down. But it will take you YEARS. Hundreds of us will die but thousands of yours will. I’m counting on it.”


Irritated by your uncle’s spirit of defiance but still hoping to take the castle without having to fight, the commander of the Mountain Army has you dragged out where the uncle can see you from the battlements.

The commander takes out a large knife and puts it against your throat. You feel the cold and hard blade against the surface of your throat.
“Surrender the castle, or I’ll cut your nephew’s throat open,” the commander proclaims coldly.

Not wanting to give the Mountain Kingdom any sense of leverage (and perhaps he never particularly cared for you), your uncle promptly says: “Go ahead. Cut it open. “ He coldly walks away from the castle’s battlements.

Terror courses through your veins as you realize you are going to die. However, it doesn’t happen. The furious Mountain Kingdom commander considers cutting your throat but decides against it. He has you dragged back into the cage.


At night, while you are chained in your cage, the Mountain commander comes to you and offers you a deal.

He will release you and allow you to go back to your uncle’s side. In exchange, you will order every single soldier inside the castle to put down their weapons, surrender, and allow the Mountain Army inside. Since the Mountain Kingdom has killed nearly every single one of your relatives now, you are technically the ruler of the River Kingdom now outranking even your uncle.

You understand the culture of your people very well, if you tell them to surrender, they will (maybe a little resentfully but they will).
In exchange, the Mountain commander promises you that you will be allowed to live in a comfortable castle in the Mountain Kingdom countryside with servants to look after you. He promises you a comfortable existence.

However, your uncle will be arrested and executed for the rebellion. The remaining soldiers will be treated in accordance with their degree of previous participation in the war.

Wanting to get out of the cage at any cost, you “agree” to the deal. The Mountain commander makes you swear that when you enter the castle again you will order your men to surrender.


You walk up to the castle. You declare to the guards on the battlement your true name and rightful title. You demand entry.


Above on the battlements, your uncle protests.
“Don’t let him you idiots! He’s obviously made a deal with the Mountain Kingdom! He’s going to sell us out!”
However, the soldiers turn against your uncle. “He is the rightful lord of this castle. My lord has given a command. I am sworn to obey my lord.”
Your uncle is outraged but because of the River Kingdom’s culture (where the people are required to 100% obey the feudal hierarchy), your uncle is ousted and the castle opens up.

You walk inside and easily assume command of the castle.

Please discuss what you would do next. Please provide a moral and/or pragmatic justification. Your options are as follows:

1) Fulfill your “promise” to the Mountain commander and trust that he will keep his end of the deal. Tell your soldiers to arrest your uncle, put down all weapons, surrender, and then allow the Mountain Kingdom’s troops inside. You are tired of the war and there is no point in fighting a hopeless siege. This deal from the Mountain commander is the best deal you’re going to get (and your uncle is kind of a prick).

2) Renege on your “promise” and take command of the castle’s defenses. Prepare for the Mountain Kingdom’s incoming attack. Please note that the Mountain Kingdom’s chances of defeating you (as set by the hypothetical when all factors are considered) is 95 percent. However, you refuse to betray your uncle and you want to die fighting with honor even against overwhelming odds.


Please assume that the even though the Mountain commander has ordered many atrocities, he has previously offered and honored a similar deal with one of your cousins. Given the commander’s past actions, you are 100% clear that if you fight and are defeated, every single person in the castle will be killed (if not tortured first).

Please try to take into account everything in the above scenario, including your state of mind after having gone through so much hard times.

(Note that the above scenario is a variation of a fact pattern from a past season of Game of Thrones)

I will renege on the deal and fight to the very end for the River Kingdom. It is the honorable things to do. This is why I choose to do so.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:55 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Bombadil
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bombadil » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:42 pm

Never trust a Lannister.
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:47 pm

Option 3. Pull a Tokugawa, intimidate the heck out of them, and live to fight another day.
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Neanderthaland
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Neanderthaland » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:51 pm

Why would I want to live to see season 8?

Charge them like in Helms Deep.
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Klorgia1
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Ex-Nation

Postby Klorgia1 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:06 pm

Break the deal, get updated on all current events (to make sure I know how unlikely survival is), order my Uncle to a dungeon, and prepare for battle.

From behind the lines, I'm make sure my men to have the supplies to survive this siege. Seeing how much is left, I tell them to pack up as much of this (and equipment) as possible. I'm assuming I'm outflanked, but my men are well fed. I order the enemy kingdom to move our for the final surrender to take place. "I'll be a small feudal lordship in exile, as my family was promised long ago."

I move my men out of the castle, and leave a few spies with instructions to (amongst other things):

A. Burn the castle once it's been fully taken and our men evacuated.

B. Keep my updated on enemy affairs.

We will not abandon our people to these savages, as a future coalition will ensure. But for the moment, this will do.
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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:22 pm

Klorgia1 wrote:Break the deal, get updated on all current events (to make sure I know how unlikely survival is), order my Uncle to a dungeon, and prepare for battle.

From behind the lines, I'm make sure my men to have the supplies to survive this siege. Seeing how much is left, I tell them to pack up as much of this (and equipment) as possible. I'm assuming I'm outflanked, but my men are well fed. I order the enemy kingdom to move our for the final surrender to take place. "I'll be a small feudal lordship in exile, as my family was promised long ago."

I move my men out of the castle, and leave a few spies with instructions to (amongst other things):

A. Burn the castle once it's been fully taken and our men evacuated.

B. Keep my updated on enemy affairs.

We will not abandon our people to these savages, as a future coalition will ensure. But for the moment, this will do.


It was intended that your castle is completed surrounded (though the siege has not yet begun). Meaning that there is nowhere to run without fighting.

Hence the need to either stand and fight (with the defensive advantage of the castle) or surrender and try to take the deal.

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The Frozen Forest
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Frozen Forest » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:48 pm

Bombadil wrote:Never trust a Lannister.

The Lannisters send their regards.

No, but the answer the prompt. I would have to say that i would accept the deal offered to me. There is absolutely no benefit to fighting longer, the war is certainly lost and fighting on would lead to the complete destruction of my Dynasty. The only chance my family has is through myself, and possibly my Cousin, so in the interest of keeping my family alive, i would submit and do whatever i could to try to become an accepted bannerman of the King of the Mountain Kingdom. To climb back out of my situation as a simple captive-even if it means becoming entirely loyal to the Mountain King.

My people will do better if their sons return home rather than die in a useless siege. We have already lost the war at this point, so we might as well cut our losses and save our sons from further hardship.
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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:48 am

The Frozen Forest wrote:
Bombadil wrote:Never trust a Lannister.

The Lannisters send their regards.

No, but the answer the prompt. I would have to say that i would accept the deal offered to me. There is absolutely no benefit to fighting longer, the war is certainly lost and fighting on would lead to the complete destruction of my Dynasty. The only chance my family has is through myself, and possibly my Cousin, so in the interest of keeping my family alive, i would submit and do whatever i could to try to become an accepted bannerman of the King of the Mountain Kingdom. To climb back out of my situation as a simple captive-even if it means becoming entirely loyal to the Mountain King.

My people will do better if their sons return home rather than die in a useless siege. We have already lost the war at this point, so we might as well cut our losses and save our sons from further hardship.


this is a very pragmatic point of view

I like this

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Hanafuridake
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Ex-Nation

Postby Hanafuridake » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:14 am

So the uncle let me rot in a prison cell for several years and when a knife was pointed at my throat, told them to go ahead and kill me? Honestly I could forgive most of that if it weren't for having to suffer years without a toilet.

Execute him myself and present his head to the Mountain Kingdom as a sign of good faith.
Last edited by Hanafuridake on Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:20 am

Hanafuridake wrote:So the uncle let me rot in a prison cell for several years and when a knife was pointed at my throat, told them to go ahead and kill me? Honestly I could forgive most of that if it weren't for having to suffer years without a toilet.

Execute him myself and present his head to the Mountain Kingdom as a sign of good faith.


I mean, he was waging war against the Mountain Kingdom in your absence.

I think he's cynically accepted that you're never going to be freed and that you've effectively become a bargaining chip for the enemy team.

To be fair to him, if he wavered and showed weakness when they threatened you as a hostage, it could give the enemy team leverage.

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Alvecia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Alvecia » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:05 am

TL;DR: Wwyd if you were Edmure Tully in S6 E8 of Game of Thones.

That which would result in the fewest deaths.
Last edited by Alvecia on Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:13 am

Alvecia wrote:TL;DR: Wwyd if you were Edmure Tully in S6 E8 of Game of Thones.

That which would result in the fewest deaths.


Except in this version there is only one enemy faction (the Mountain Kingdom) instead of two and some characters are merged to make it less convoluted.

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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:19 am

Could someone give me the TL;DR version? I got bored two paragraphs in
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:19 am

Alvecia wrote:TL;DR: Wwyd if you were Edmure Tully in S6 E8 of Game of Thones.

That which would result in the fewest deaths.

What if I’ve never seen that shit?
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:27 am

Based off that scenario, a character similar to me would honour the deal. I'd imagine that just about everyone on both sides is sick of years of warfare, and I have no reason to be loyal to a psychopathic uncle who obviously doesn't place any value on me or the lives of his troops.

Besides, you should check out what Sun Tzu said, or read some historical accounts of sieges. There is no honour in such an engagement. The defenders will just sit inside the castle starving wishing for a relief force, the attackers will just sit around outside wishing for home, and after a 3 months the troops will beg for me to surrender anyway. And I almost certainly will, or I'd be deposed and then the mutineer commander will negotiate such a truce.

Especially considering the Mountain commander's track record of honouring such deals in the past. I'll likely be a very valuable part of the post-war administration if he wants to actually rule of the River Kingdom anyway.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:30 am

Thermodolia wrote:Could someone give me the TL;DR version? I got bored two paragraphs in


Another kingdom has invaded your kingdom and captured King you. While in captivity, your uncle who hates you was leading the war effort but has lost everything except one castle, which he wants to fight to the death in. The enemy commander lets you go on the condition that you enter the castle and tell your troops to surrender without bloodshed. Do you honour your deal with the enemy commander or do you hold up inside the castle and fight to the bitter end?
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:36 am

Chan Island wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Could someone give me the TL;DR version? I got bored two paragraphs in


Another kingdom has invaded your kingdom and captured King you. While in captivity, your uncle who hates you was leading the war effort but has lost everything except one castle, which he wants to fight to the death in. The enemy commander lets you go on the condition that you enter the castle and tell your troops to surrender without bloodshed. Do you honour your deal with the enemy commander or do you hold up inside the castle and fight to the bitter end?

The enemy commander is an idiot for letting me leave. Let’s helms deeps this mofo
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:40 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
Another kingdom has invaded your kingdom and captured King you. While in captivity, your uncle who hates you was leading the war effort but has lost everything except one castle, which he wants to fight to the death in. The enemy commander lets you go on the condition that you enter the castle and tell your troops to surrender without bloodshed. Do you honour your deal with the enemy commander or do you hold up inside the castle and fight to the bitter end?

The enemy commander is an idiot for letting me leave. Let’s helms deeps this mofo


As in you're going to get everyone to charge out and die en masse in a single night?
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:04 am

Chan Island wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:The enemy commander is an idiot for letting me leave. Let’s helms deeps this mofo


As in you're going to get everyone to charge out and die en masse in a single night?

Well if he’s stupid enough to let me leave he’s probably too stupid to consider a counterattack
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>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
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Chan Island
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Ex-Nation

Postby Chan Island » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:07 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
As in you're going to get everyone to charge out and die en masse in a single night?

Well if he’s stupid enough to let me leave he’s probably too stupid to consider a counterattack


Except that he's basically already won the war.

And if he is really that stupid, then one shudders to imagine the depths of idiocy the uncle must be plumbing to lose to such a man.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:15 am

Chan Island wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Well if he’s stupid enough to let me leave he’s probably too stupid to consider a counterattack


Except that he's basically already won the war.

And if he is really that stupid, then one shudders to imagine the depths of idiocy the uncle must be plumbing to lose to such a man.

Well instead of raiding the supply lines he goes and holes himself up
Male, Jewish, lives somewhere in AZ, Disabled US Military Veteran, Oorah!, I'm GAY!
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>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
Click for Da Funies

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Ifreann
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:19 am

Order my men to burn the castle down and flee into the Riverlands.
He/Him

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we never summon the devil
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we never

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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:53 am

Ifreann wrote:Order my men to burn the castle down and flee into the Riverlands.


Its intended for the scenario for your forces to already be surrounded (but for the actual assault on the castle not to have begun yet)

so the only way out is to fight

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Ifreann
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:54 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Order my men to burn the castle down and flee into the Riverlands.


Its intended for the scenario for your forces to already be surrounded (but for the actual assault on the castle not to have begun yet)

so the only way out is to fight

Nah, the castle burning down will prove a pretty good distraction, I'm sure most of my men will be able to sneak off. If nothing else, they can always hop in the river.
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beating the devil
we never run from the devil
we never summon the devil
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we never

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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:55 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Order my men to burn the castle down and flee into the Riverlands.


Its intended for the scenario for your forces to already be surrounded (but for the actual assault on the castle not to have begun yet)

so the only way out is to fight

The fact that the enemy commander is waiting this fucking long to attack tells me that he’s a stupid mother fucker.
Male, Jewish, lives somewhere in AZ, Disabled US Military Veteran, Oorah!, I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
Click for Da Funies

RIP Dya

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