NationStates

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:The counter revolution was pointless, Solidarity could have at least instituted syndicalism or something. What’s the point of giving it your all to institute some lame ass social conservative capitalism?

this isn't kaiserreich bro, Stalin wasn't a totalist security minister in Georgia when he brought socialism to the Poles

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:The fall of the Soviet Empire may have been a tragedy in some of its aspects, but ultimately it is something to be celebrated.

"Lang is greater than Lenin" wasn't just a slogan, was it?

It's a shame that after suffering atrocities at the hands of the Nazis and then being subjugated by the Soviet Union that Poland, now democratic, is drifting fast toward authoritarianism again, as is the same situation in Hungary.

Page wrote:It's a shame that after suffering atrocities at the hands of the Nazis and then being subjugated by the Soviet Union that Poland, now democratic, is drifting fast toward authoritarianism again, as is the same situation in Hungary.

To be fair, the only real reason this drift is happening is because the center-right and center-left parties are Pro-EU and so the populace, which like large swathes of Europe is becoming disillusioned and wary of the efficacy of the European Union, is simply voting for the party which has the strongest vein of Euroscepticism.

Soviet Tankistan wrote:

Novus America wrote:
While true, especially in Russia and Central Asia, Poland and the Baltics have been quite successful and become functioning democracies.
Obviously many other post Soviet/Eastern bloc states never did though.

Poland is starting not to be a functioning democracy, so it ironic this was brought up now.

Highever wrote:Hell, it seems some never really fully acknowledged their independence at all.

Poland had been part of Russia for a very long time and they aren't looking good by themselves. The nationalists are too powerful and ready to use violence.

Poland was only “part” of Russia for about 100 years.
And that has been not part of it for over 100.
And is despite some issues is doing pretty well.
Much better than it was as a Russian Empire colony or a Soviet Satellite,

Soviet Tankistan wrote:

Novus America wrote:
While true, especially in Russia and Central Asia, Poland and the Baltics have been quite successful and become functioning democracies.
Obviously many other post Soviet/Eastern bloc states never did though.

Poland is starting not to be a functioning democracy, so it ironic this was brought up now.

Highever wrote:Hell, it seems some never really fully acknowledged their independence at all.

Poland had been part of Russia for a very long time and they aren't looking good by themselves. The nationalists are too powerful and ready to use violence.

Then what is dysfunctional about it?

Also, Poland was a country when the proto-Russians were running away from Vikings with some birchwood.

Claorica wrote:

Page wrote:It's a shame that after suffering atrocities at the hands of the Nazis and then being subjugated by the Soviet Union that Poland, now democratic, is drifting fast toward authoritarianism again, as is the same situation in Hungary.

To be fair, the only real reason this drift is happening is because the center-right and center-left parties are Pro-EU and so the populace, which like large swathes of Europe is becoming disillusioned and wary of the efficacy of the European Union, is simply voting for the party which has the strongest vein of Euroscepticism.

Sort of - but even as countries like Hungary and Poland gain more economic prowess, there is still an abundance of discontentment and societal woes in the former Eastern Bloc. More people leave these countries than immigrate, populations are on the decline etc etc, in such a society, it stands to reason that their citizens might be drawn to love strongman rhetoric and zany hyper-nationalism.

Petrolheadia wrote:In my opinion, Solidarity should have tried to get more of the seats given to them with their influence on Poles, but given how surprising the victory was to both sides and how the government controlled the army and police, I can easily say that such claims are of the "hindsight is 20/20" variety.

Of course, but as you say, hindsight is 20/20. It is similar to the transitions to civilian regimes in Latin America in the 1980's and the 1990's, with Brazil, Chile, and Argentina providing examples of different degrees of military autonomy and influence following their removal from office. The degree to which the military forces continued to influence politics, or evade persecution, depended largely on the conditions of their removal: Argentina faced serious economic troubles and had lost a largely unpopular war - the Falklands War - and was pretty much forced to surrender power to the civilians, with little to leverage. On the other, opposite side, the junta in Brazil did not have serious problems, and could negotiate from a position of advantage and supremacy, allowing themselves more privileges. In the middle sits Chile.

So, basically, it all depends on how actors view the power position and bargaining chips of the other side. As you correctly stated, the victory was considered to be a surprise, indicating a large amount of bargaining power on the PZPR, thus resulting in the PZPR retaining their influence. Of course, as we well know, they were eventually forced to give up all that power, but that's besides the point.

Congratulations Poland! Hope you try to get away from the eu.

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:The counter revolution was pointless, Solidarity could have at least instituted syndicalism or something. What’s the point of giving it your all to institute some lame ass social conservative capitalism?

I think you've been playing too much Ostalgie.

Communist Zombie Horde wrote:Congratulations Poland! Hope you try to get away from the eu.

Why?

It gets us development grants higher than what we pay in, the ability to easily emigrate and export, and a supply of cheap used cars. It would be pants-on-head, drooling-in-cup stupid to get out.

Petrolheadia wrote:

Communist Zombie Horde wrote:Congratulations Poland! Hope you try to get away from the eu.

Why?

It gets us development grants higher than what we pay in, the ability to easily emigrate and export, and a supply of cheap used cars. It would be pants-on-head, drooling-in-cup stupid to get out.

That's what I don't understand about Eastern European populism, so please enlighten me: What's the true aim of PiS (Poland) and Fidesz/Jobbik (Hungary) beyond simply breaking off from the EU and "illiberal democracy?" I know it must be a reaction, but to what? Or could it be that this resurgence is kind of an opportunistic takeover from the failures of Western-style liberalism? I don't understand how it kind of went south in less than 30 years.

Achaean Republic wrote:

Petrolheadia wrote:Why?

It gets us development grants higher than what we pay in, the ability to easily emigrate and export, and a supply of cheap used cars. It would be pants-on-head, drooling-in-cup stupid to get out.

That's what I don't understand about Eastern European populism, so please enlighten me: What's the true aim of PiS (Poland) and Fidesz/Jobbik (Hungary) beyond simply breaking off from the EU and "illiberal democracy?" I know it must be a reaction, but to what?

True aim? Breaking from the EU?

As far as I'm aware, there is no "true aim" or evil conpiracy. There is just a noticeably Christian democrat (social right, economic left) government.

Jeez, has it been that long?

And they went from under the cosh of Russia to being under the cosh of Brusssels.

Stiltball wrote:Jeez, has it been that long?

And they went from under the cosh of Russia to being under the cosh of Brusssels.

As if that was bad for us...

Petrolheadia wrote:

Stiltball wrote:Jeez, has it been that long?

And they went from under the cosh of Russia to being under the cosh of Brusssels.

As if that was bad for us...

What makes PiS get so much support in Poland?

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:The fall of the Soviet Empire may have been a tragedy in some of its aspects, but ultimately it is something to be celebrated.

Nothing tragic about it; it was a great day for all humanity.

Achaean Republic wrote:

Petrolheadia wrote:As if that was bad for us...

What makes PiS get so much support in Poland?

Good economy and expanded welfare system.

Achaean Republic wrote:

Petrolheadia wrote:Why?

It gets us development grants higher than what we pay in, the ability to easily emigrate and export, and a supply of cheap used cars. It would be pants-on-head, drooling-in-cup stupid to get out.

That's what I don't understand about Eastern European populism, so please enlighten me: What's the true aim of PiS (Poland) and Fidesz/Jobbik (Hungary) beyond simply breaking off from the EU and "illiberal democracy?" I know it must be a reaction, but to what? Or could it be that this resurgence is kind of an opportunistic takeover from the failures of Western-style liberalism? I don't understand how it kind of went south in less than 30 years.

As far as I'm aware, Fidesz and PIS are both "soft" eurosceptic parties that support the EU but think it has too much power.

Petrolheadia wrote:

Achaean Republic wrote:
What makes PiS get so much support in Poland?

Good economy and expanded welfare system.

Are you sure that’s it?

Loben The 2nd wrote:

Petrolheadia wrote:Good economy and expanded welfare system.

Are you sure that’s it?

Why not?

It’d be great if the former Warsaw Pact wasn’t becoming increasingly into the same authoritarian and anti-democratic policies they broke away from since it makes the last 30 years a waste of time.

The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:It’d be great if the former Warsaw Pact wasn’t becoming increasingly into the same authoritarian and anti-democratic policies they broke away from since it makes the last 30 years a waste of time.

Poland and Hungary isn't the whole Warsaw Pact, you know. Hell, as far as Central Europe + Baltics are concerned, they are outliers rather than any sort of trend (and the trend is democracy)

Finland SSR wrote:

The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:It’d be great if the former Warsaw Pact wasn’t becoming increasingly into the same authoritarian and anti-democratic policies they broke away from since it makes the last 30 years a waste of time.

Poland and Hungary isn't the whole Warsaw Pact, you know. Hell, as far as Central Europe + Baltics are concerned, they are outliers rather than any sort of trend (and the trend is democracy)

Ukraine, too.

Diopolis wrote:

Finland SSR wrote:Poland and Hungary isn't the whole Warsaw Pact, you know. Hell, as far as Central Europe + Baltics are concerned, they are outliers rather than any sort of trend (and the trend is democracy)

Ukraine, too.

>Central Europe + Baltics

Eastern Europe is a whole different beast. No need to even mention Ukraine when it has places like Belarus and Russia