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30 years of postcommunist democracy.

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Petrolheadia
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30 years of postcommunist democracy.

Postby Petrolheadia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:24 am

On this very day 30 years ago, June 4, 1989, the first democratic election since the communist takeover was held in the Eastern Bloc - Poland's legislative election. In that election, Poles chose their representatives to the Sejm (lower house of parliament) and Senat (upper house).

However, it was not fully free - as a result of an agreement with the ruling PZPR, the democratic Solidarity could only take 161 of 460 Sejm seats, with all the others granted to the PZPR and their puppet larties. In a landslide victory, that anticommunist movement got all 161 of them, as well as 99 of 100 Senat seats (#100 went to an independent senator), which surprised pretty much everyone involved, especially given the vast influence of the ruling party.

So, what's your take on that?

In my opinion, Solidarity should have tried to get more of the seats given to them with their influence on Poles, but given how surprising the victory was to both sides and how the government controlled the army and police, I can easily say that such claims are of the "hindsight is 20/20" variety.

As for the democracy itself, it has been a great development from my Polish point of view, combining prosperity (or at least stability) of many econonomies with a huge increase in personal freedoms. Granted, there are countries that would have been better without the fall of communism, but I wouldn't trade for such a scenario.
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Painisia
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Postby Painisia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:30 am

Poland was in a bad socioeconomic situation during the PZPR rule from the late 1970s to 1989. I do not think the Poles are yearning for a return of the draconian Communist system, which severely limited their living standards and consumption. Poland today in 2019 is a relatively stable nation, however nothing is perfect. Poland is divided between "Polska A" and "Polska B". Short said, "A" is the bastion of Pro-European cosmopolitanism and progressivism, whereas "B" is a bastion of Traditionalist Social Catholicism and rural values. Such political differences within a nation can cause a domestic stir. At the same time, the far-right in Poland is experiencing a surge
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Tenebrous Imperium
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Postby Tenebrous Imperium » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:34 am

The counter revolution was pointless, Solidarity could have at least instituted syndicalism or something. What’s the point of giving it your all to institute some lame ass social conservative capitalism?
Last edited by Tenebrous Imperium on Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:36 am

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:The counter revolution was pointless, Solidarity could have at least instituted syndicalism or something. What’s the point of giving it your all to institute some lame ass social conservative capitalism?

Well, it is better than the communism that preceded it.
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Tenebrous Imperium
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Postby Tenebrous Imperium » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:39 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Well, it is better than the communism that preceded it.

Probably, but it lead to their dissolution as a political power. They needed to take it over and reform it, they never should have allowed this nonsense.

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Petrolheadia
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Postby Petrolheadia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:40 am

Painisia wrote:Poland was in a bad socioeconomic situation during the PZPR rule from the late 1970s to 1989. I do not think the Poles are yearning for a return of the draconian Communist system, which severely limited their living standards and consumption. Poland today in 2019 is a relatively stable nation, however nothing is perfect. Poland is divided between "Polska A" and "Polska B". Short said, "A" is the bastion of Pro-European cosmopolitanism and progressivism, whereas "B" is a bastion of Traditionalist Social Catholicism and rural values. Such political differences within a nation can cause a domestic stir. At the same time, the far-right in Poland is experiencing a surge

I wouldn't say that there is much of a divide, it's more political than personal. Also, what far right?
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
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"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
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Petrolheadia
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Postby Petrolheadia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:40 am

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:The counter revolution was pointless, Solidarity could have at least instituted syndicalism or something. What’s the point of giving it your all to institute some lame ass social conservative capitalism?

'Cause it works, mate.
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
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"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

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Tenebrous Imperium
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Postby Tenebrous Imperium » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:42 am

Petrolheadia wrote:'Cause it works, mate.

But it’s lame. We could have had syndicalist Poland.

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Petrolheadia
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Postby Petrolheadia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:43 am

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:'Cause it works, mate.

But it’s lame. We could have had syndicalist Poland.

Why?
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Communism, socialism, Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, multiculturalism, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
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"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

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Tenebrous Imperium
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Postby Tenebrous Imperium » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:53 am

Petrolheadia wrote:
Tenebrous Imperium wrote:But it’s lame. We could have had syndicalist Poland.

Why?

For worker management? Capitalism is lame, does lame jobs, monopolizes management and wealth. And it brought about the child-molesting Catholicism.

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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:58 am

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:Why?

For worker management? Capitalism is lame, does lame jobs, monopolizes management and wealth. And it brought about the child-molesting Catholicism.

Catholicism can exist without capitalism and vice versa.
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Petrolheadia
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Postby Petrolheadia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:00 pm

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:Why?

For worker management? Capitalism is lame, does lame jobs, monopolizes management and wealth. And it brought about the child-molesting Catholicism.

Catholicism has been in Poland since the 10th century.
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Communism, socialism, Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, multiculturalism, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic, centre-libertarian.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

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Postby Cekoviu » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:14 pm

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:Why?

For worker management? Capitalism is lame, does lame jobs, monopolizes management and wealth. And it brought about the child-molesting Catholicism.

uh
what
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Postby Highever » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:40 pm

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:Why?

For worker management? Capitalism is lame, does lame jobs, monopolizes management and wealth. And it brought about the child-molesting Catholicism.

Catholicism came to Poland long before capitalism was developed as an economic system.
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:46 pm

It was a step in the right direction to end the 46-year occupation of the Soviets and a transition to true Democracy. I think, in the end, it was worth it.
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Postby Diopolis » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:00 pm

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:Why?

For worker management? Capitalism is lame, does lame jobs, monopolizes management and wealth. And it brought about the child-molesting Catholicism.

Most of the child molesting in the Catholic church happened during the cold war era.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:05 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Tenebrous Imperium wrote:For worker management? Capitalism is lame, does lame jobs, monopolizes management and wealth. And it brought about the child-molesting Catholicism.

Most of the child molesting in the Catholic church happened during the cold war era.

Well, the organisation is also trying to protect those responsible. The organisation certainly has not redeemed itself.
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Postby Diopolis » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:13 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Most of the child molesting in the Catholic church happened during the cold war era.

Well, the organisation is also trying to protect those responsible. The organisation certainly has not redeemed itself.

We can get into a discussion about Catholic church response to sex abuse in another thread(no really- I'm happy to participate in one), but my point was that blaming the fall of communism for the Catholic sex abuse is rather absurd.
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Tenebrous Imperium
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Postby Tenebrous Imperium » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:38 pm

Diopolis wrote:We can get into a discussion about Catholic church response to sex abuse in another thread(no really- I'm happy to participate in one), but my point was that blaming the fall of communism for the Catholic sex abuse is rather absurd.

They should have persecuted it more. For the children.

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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:24 pm

Diopolis wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Well, the organisation is also trying to protect those responsible. The organisation certainly has not redeemed itself.

We can get into a discussion about Catholic church response to sex abuse in another thread(no really- I'm happy to participate in one), but my point was that blaming the fall of communism for the Catholic sex abuse is rather absurd.

Now that I agree with you with.
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Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:26 pm

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Postby Rojava Free State » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:49 pm

Most of the eastern block never became truly free. Many of its countries are crooked dictatorships and the idea that the end of communism=freedom was just downright childish. you would think america, a country that propped up tyrannical maniacs worldwide, would understand that lack of communism doesn't add up to freedoms and justice
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Postby Novus America » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:04 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:Most of the eastern block never became truly free. Many of its countries are crooked dictatorships and the idea that the end of communism=freedom was just downright childish. you would think america, a country that propped up tyrannical maniacs worldwide, would understand that lack of communism doesn't add up to freedoms and justice


While true, especially in Russia and Central Asia, Poland and the Baltics have been quite successful and become functioning democracies.
Obviously many other post Soviet/Eastern bloc states never did though.
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Postby Highever » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:35 pm

Novus America wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:Most of the eastern block never became truly free. Many of its countries are crooked dictatorships and the idea that the end of communism=freedom was just downright childish. you would think america, a country that propped up tyrannical maniacs worldwide, would understand that lack of communism doesn't add up to freedoms and justice


While true, especially in Russia and Central Asia, Poland and the Baltics have been quite successful and become functioning democracies.
Obviously many other post Soviet/Eastern bloc states never did though.

Hell, it seems some never really fully acknowledged their independence at all.
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Postby Soviet Tankistan » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:00 am

Novus America wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:Most of the eastern block never became truly free. Many of its countries are crooked dictatorships and the idea that the end of communism=freedom was just downright childish. you would think america, a country that propped up tyrannical maniacs worldwide, would understand that lack of communism doesn't add up to freedoms and justice


While true, especially in Russia and Central Asia, Poland and the Baltics have been quite successful and become functioning democracies.
Obviously many other post Soviet/Eastern bloc states never did though.

Poland is starting not to be a functioning democracy, so it ironic this was brought up now.
Highever wrote:
Novus America wrote:
While true, especially in Russia and Central Asia, Poland and the Baltics have been quite successful and become functioning democracies.
Obviously many other post Soviet/Eastern bloc states never did though.

Hell, it seems some never really fully acknowledged their independence at all.

Poland had been part of Russia for a very long time and they aren't looking good by themselves. The nationalists are too powerful and ready to use violence.
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