NATION

PASSWORD

30 years of postcommunist democracy.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Petrolheadia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11032
Founded: May 02, 2015
New York Times Democracy

30 years of postcommunist democracy.

Postby Petrolheadia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:24 am

On this very day 30 years ago, June 4, 1989, the first democratic election since the communist takeover was held in the Eastern Bloc - Poland's legislative election. In that election, Poles chose their representatives to the Sejm (lower house of parliament) and Senat (upper house).

However, it was not fully free - as a result of an agreement with the ruling PZPR, the democratic Solidarity could only take 161 of 460 Sejm seats, with all the others granted to the PZPR and their puppet larties. In a landslide victory, that anticommunist movement got all 161 of them, as well as 99 of 100 Senat seats (#100 went to an independent senator), which surprised pretty much everyone involved, especially given the vast influence of the ruling party.

So, what's your take on that?

In my opinion, Solidarity should have tried to get more of the seats given to them with their influence on Poles, but given how surprising the victory was to both sides and how the government controlled the army and police, I can easily say that such claims are of the "hindsight is 20/20" variety.

As for the democracy itself, it has been a great development from my Polish point of view, combining prosperity (or at least stability) of many econonomies with a huge increase in personal freedoms. Granted, there are countries that would have been better without the fall of communism, but I wouldn't trade for such a scenario.
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Communism, socialism, Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, multiculturalism, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic, centre-libertarian.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

User avatar
Painisia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1585
Founded: Nov 02, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Painisia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:30 am

Poland was in a bad socioeconomic situation during the PZPR rule from the late 1970s to 1989. I do not think the Poles are yearning for a return of the draconian Communist system, which severely limited their living standards and consumption. Poland today in 2019 is a relatively stable nation, however nothing is perfect. Poland is divided between "Polska A" and "Polska B". Short said, "A" is the bastion of Pro-European cosmopolitanism and progressivism, whereas "B" is a bastion of Traditionalist Social Catholicism and rural values. Such political differences within a nation can cause a domestic stir. At the same time, the far-right in Poland is experiencing a surge
Christian Democrat--Syncretic--Integral Humanist --Distributist--Ecologist--Popolarismo--Corporatist

"Systems were made for men, and not men for systems, and the interest of man which is self-development, is above all systems, whether theological, political or economic."They shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid.What we really demand of existence is not that we shall be put into somebody else's Utopia, but we shall be put in a position to construct a Utopia of our own."

-C.H. Douglas (1879-1952)

User avatar
Tenebrous Imperium
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 10
Founded: Jun 02, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby Tenebrous Imperium » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:34 am

The counter revolution was pointless, Solidarity could have at least instituted syndicalism or something. What’s the point of giving it your all to institute some lame ass social conservative capitalism?
Last edited by Tenebrous Imperium on Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Enby. Chinese Legalist/Socialist Pagan.

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Senator
 
Posts: 3540
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:36 am

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:The counter revolution was pointless, Solidarity could have at least instituted syndicalism or something. What’s the point of giving it your all to institute some lame ass social conservative capitalism?

Well, it is better than the communism that preceded it.
Supports: Liberty, Capitalism, Libertarianism, Low Taxes, Free Speech, Civic Nationalism, Representative Republics, Secularism, Atheism

Against: Crony Capitalism, Fascism, Nazism, Antifa, Ethnic Nationalism, alt-right, Communism, Socialism, Religion, Totalitarianism, Authoritarianism, mass migration
Fascists on Gameside have declared me an Enemy of the State! lol.

User avatar
Tenebrous Imperium
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 10
Founded: Jun 02, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby Tenebrous Imperium » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:39 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Well, it is better than the communism that preceded it.

Probably, but it lead to their dissolution as a political power. They needed to take it over and reform it, they never should have allowed this nonsense.

User avatar
Petrolheadia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11032
Founded: May 02, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Petrolheadia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:40 am

Painisia wrote:Poland was in a bad socioeconomic situation during the PZPR rule from the late 1970s to 1989. I do not think the Poles are yearning for a return of the draconian Communist system, which severely limited their living standards and consumption. Poland today in 2019 is a relatively stable nation, however nothing is perfect. Poland is divided between "Polska A" and "Polska B". Short said, "A" is the bastion of Pro-European cosmopolitanism and progressivism, whereas "B" is a bastion of Traditionalist Social Catholicism and rural values. Such political differences within a nation can cause a domestic stir. At the same time, the far-right in Poland is experiencing a surge

I wouldn't say that there is much of a divide, it's more political than personal. Also, what far right?
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Communism, socialism, Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, multiculturalism, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic, centre-libertarian.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

User avatar
Petrolheadia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11032
Founded: May 02, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Petrolheadia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:40 am

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:The counter revolution was pointless, Solidarity could have at least instituted syndicalism or something. What’s the point of giving it your all to institute some lame ass social conservative capitalism?

'Cause it works, mate.
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Communism, socialism, Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, multiculturalism, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic, centre-libertarian.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

User avatar
Tenebrous Imperium
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 10
Founded: Jun 02, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby Tenebrous Imperium » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:42 am

Petrolheadia wrote:'Cause it works, mate.

But it’s lame. We could have had syndicalist Poland.

User avatar
Petrolheadia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11032
Founded: May 02, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Petrolheadia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:43 am

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:'Cause it works, mate.

But it’s lame. We could have had syndicalist Poland.

Why?
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Communism, socialism, Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, multiculturalism, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic, centre-libertarian.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

User avatar
Tenebrous Imperium
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 10
Founded: Jun 02, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby Tenebrous Imperium » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:53 am

Petrolheadia wrote:
Tenebrous Imperium wrote:But it’s lame. We could have had syndicalist Poland.

Why?

For worker management? Capitalism is lame, does lame jobs, monopolizes management and wealth. And it brought about the child-molesting Catholicism.

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Senator
 
Posts: 3540
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:58 am

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:Why?

For worker management? Capitalism is lame, does lame jobs, monopolizes management and wealth. And it brought about the child-molesting Catholicism.

Catholicism can exist without capitalism and vice versa.
Supports: Liberty, Capitalism, Libertarianism, Low Taxes, Free Speech, Civic Nationalism, Representative Republics, Secularism, Atheism

Against: Crony Capitalism, Fascism, Nazism, Antifa, Ethnic Nationalism, alt-right, Communism, Socialism, Religion, Totalitarianism, Authoritarianism, mass migration
Fascists on Gameside have declared me an Enemy of the State! lol.

User avatar
Petrolheadia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11032
Founded: May 02, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Petrolheadia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:00 pm

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:Why?

For worker management? Capitalism is lame, does lame jobs, monopolizes management and wealth. And it brought about the child-molesting Catholicism.

Catholicism has been in Poland since the 10th century.
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Communism, socialism, Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, multiculturalism, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic, centre-libertarian.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

User avatar
Cekoviu
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9237
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:14 pm

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:Why?

For worker management? Capitalism is lame, does lame jobs, monopolizes management and wealth. And it brought about the child-molesting Catholicism.

uh
what
⮽⮽⮽ Copy and paste this in your sig if you hate the meme that your grade in 9th grade biology has literally anything to do with your fake-edgy views on gender. ⮽⮽⮽
Hickenlooper 2020
Cockroaches are cool. 8):
♀, not Bhutanese
  • Not knowing what the below sentence means
  • Picking Grookey over Sobble or Scorbunny
Spider Justice Warriors, unite!

User avatar
Highever
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1386
Founded: Dec 21, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Highever » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:40 pm

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:Why?

For worker management? Capitalism is lame, does lame jobs, monopolizes management and wealth. And it brought about the child-molesting Catholicism.

Catholicism came to Poland long before capitalism was developed as an economic system.
ΦΣK
⚦ Through the souls of your brothers and sisters I take My place amongst the Three; through their pleasure I ascend my Throne. Pleasure, for Pleasure's sake! ⚦
Remember Bloody Sunday
Dante Alighieri wrote:There is no greater sorrow than to recall happiness in times of misery
Charlie Chaplin wrote:Nothing is permanent in this wicked world, not even our troubles.

User avatar
Hammer Britannia
Senator
 
Posts: 4883
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Hammer Britannia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:46 pm

It was a step in the right direction to end the 46-year occupation of the Soviets and a transition to true Democracy. I think, in the end, it was worth it.
The FN FAL fetishist, Bisexual Libertarian Pagan, 27-year-old Boomer your mom warned you about
Buy my Chemical Weapons pls.
Supreme Dictator WA delegate of The Labyrinth. Please join, we have memes
Click here for free cake.
On a crusade to destroy summer posters

User avatar
Diopolis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12218
Founded: May 15, 2012
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:00 pm

Tenebrous Imperium wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:Why?

For worker management? Capitalism is lame, does lame jobs, monopolizes management and wealth. And it brought about the child-molesting Catholicism.

Most of the child molesting in the Catholic church happened during the cold war era.
Trad-Catholic, hispanophile Texas nationalist and paleoconservative. Yes, my politics are in somewhat of a flux rn, so the description changes on a weekly basis.
Economic left -3.88, authoritarian 6.15
Thoughts
Abortion is not healthcare.
St Generalissimo Francisco Franco, pray for us!

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Senator
 
Posts: 3540
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:05 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Tenebrous Imperium wrote:For worker management? Capitalism is lame, does lame jobs, monopolizes management and wealth. And it brought about the child-molesting Catholicism.

Most of the child molesting in the Catholic church happened during the cold war era.

Well, the organisation is also trying to protect those responsible. The organisation certainly has not redeemed itself.
Supports: Liberty, Capitalism, Libertarianism, Low Taxes, Free Speech, Civic Nationalism, Representative Republics, Secularism, Atheism

Against: Crony Capitalism, Fascism, Nazism, Antifa, Ethnic Nationalism, alt-right, Communism, Socialism, Religion, Totalitarianism, Authoritarianism, mass migration
Fascists on Gameside have declared me an Enemy of the State! lol.

User avatar
Diopolis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12218
Founded: May 15, 2012
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:13 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Most of the child molesting in the Catholic church happened during the cold war era.

Well, the organisation is also trying to protect those responsible. The organisation certainly has not redeemed itself.

We can get into a discussion about Catholic church response to sex abuse in another thread(no really- I'm happy to participate in one), but my point was that blaming the fall of communism for the Catholic sex abuse is rather absurd.
Trad-Catholic, hispanophile Texas nationalist and paleoconservative. Yes, my politics are in somewhat of a flux rn, so the description changes on a weekly basis.
Economic left -3.88, authoritarian 6.15
Thoughts
Abortion is not healthcare.
St Generalissimo Francisco Franco, pray for us!

User avatar
Tenebrous Imperium
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 10
Founded: Jun 02, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby Tenebrous Imperium » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:38 pm

Diopolis wrote:We can get into a discussion about Catholic church response to sex abuse in another thread(no really- I'm happy to participate in one), but my point was that blaming the fall of communism for the Catholic sex abuse is rather absurd.

They should have persecuted it more. For the children.

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Senator
 
Posts: 3540
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:24 pm

Diopolis wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Well, the organisation is also trying to protect those responsible. The organisation certainly has not redeemed itself.

We can get into a discussion about Catholic church response to sex abuse in another thread(no really- I'm happy to participate in one), but my point was that blaming the fall of communism for the Catholic sex abuse is rather absurd.

Now that I agree with you with.
Supports: Liberty, Capitalism, Libertarianism, Low Taxes, Free Speech, Civic Nationalism, Representative Republics, Secularism, Atheism

Against: Crony Capitalism, Fascism, Nazism, Antifa, Ethnic Nationalism, alt-right, Communism, Socialism, Religion, Totalitarianism, Authoritarianism, mass migration
Fascists on Gameside have declared me an Enemy of the State! lol.

User avatar
Jack Thomas Lang
Diplomat
 
Posts: 676
Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:26 pm

The fall of the Soviet Empire may have been a tragedy in some of its aspects, but ultimately it is something to be celebrated.
Catholic Distributist
Three Acres and a Cow

"In the race of life, always back self-interest — at least you know it's trying."
Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno

User avatar
Rojava Free State
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1721
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:49 pm

Most of the eastern block never became truly free. Many of its countries are crooked dictatorships and the idea that the end of communism=freedom was just downright childish. you would think america, a country that propped up tyrannical maniacs worldwide, would understand that lack of communism doesn't add up to freedoms and justice
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property, and sexy brown women

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
Half Lebanese, Half Puerto Rican. All american. Not Kurdish at all.

User avatar
Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23711
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:04 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:Most of the eastern block never became truly free. Many of its countries are crooked dictatorships and the idea that the end of communism=freedom was just downright childish. you would think america, a country that propped up tyrannical maniacs worldwide, would understand that lack of communism doesn't add up to freedoms and justice


While true, especially in Russia and Central Asia, Poland and the Baltics have been quite successful and become functioning democracies.
Obviously many other post Soviet/Eastern bloc states never did though.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Highever
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1386
Founded: Dec 21, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Highever » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:35 pm

Novus America wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:Most of the eastern block never became truly free. Many of its countries are crooked dictatorships and the idea that the end of communism=freedom was just downright childish. you would think america, a country that propped up tyrannical maniacs worldwide, would understand that lack of communism doesn't add up to freedoms and justice


While true, especially in Russia and Central Asia, Poland and the Baltics have been quite successful and become functioning democracies.
Obviously many other post Soviet/Eastern bloc states never did though.

Hell, it seems some never really fully acknowledged their independence at all.
ΦΣK
⚦ Through the souls of your brothers and sisters I take My place amongst the Three; through their pleasure I ascend my Throne. Pleasure, for Pleasure's sake! ⚦
Remember Bloody Sunday
Dante Alighieri wrote:There is no greater sorrow than to recall happiness in times of misery
Charlie Chaplin wrote:Nothing is permanent in this wicked world, not even our troubles.

User avatar
Soviet Tankistan
Envoy
 
Posts: 343
Founded: Mar 27, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Soviet Tankistan » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:00 am

Novus America wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:Most of the eastern block never became truly free. Many of its countries are crooked dictatorships and the idea that the end of communism=freedom was just downright childish. you would think america, a country that propped up tyrannical maniacs worldwide, would understand that lack of communism doesn't add up to freedoms and justice


While true, especially in Russia and Central Asia, Poland and the Baltics have been quite successful and become functioning democracies.
Obviously many other post Soviet/Eastern bloc states never did though.

Poland is starting not to be a functioning democracy, so it ironic this was brought up now.
Highever wrote:
Novus America wrote:
While true, especially in Russia and Central Asia, Poland and the Baltics have been quite successful and become functioning democracies.
Obviously many other post Soviet/Eastern bloc states never did though.

Hell, it seems some never really fully acknowledged their independence at all.

Poland had been part of Russia for a very long time and they aren't looking good by themselves. The nationalists are too powerful and ready to use violence.
☭Welcome to Soviet Tankistan!☭
In Soviet Tankistan, everyone is considered a worker if they contribute. Fascists and terrorists are not welcome.

Current focus: joining the international community and setting up diplomacy.
Neither a particularly corrupt nor a dictatorial government despite stats.

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aclion, Aeritai, Al Mumtahanah, Benuty, Cedoria, Cerinda, Demorvian, Fartsniffage, Genivaria, Harmonic Empire, Iridencia, Kannap, Kowani, La Habana Cuba, Lillorainen, Loben The 2nd, Majestic-12 [Bot], Nakena, Nanatsu no Tsuki, Newark Aristocracy, Northern Davincia, Novus America, Pacomia, Russoslava, Saiwania, Samudera Darussalam, San Lumen, Sidesh0w B0b, Sodoran Alesia, South Odreria, SovCol, The New California Republic, The Rich Port, The UniFed Conglomerate, Uiiop, Upper Secundus, Washington Resistance Army

Advertisement

Remove ads