MAGAThread XVI: Raising the Barr

[Militant Costco]

Failure of prevention doesn't equate to being responsible for that crime. Unless Trump actively supported Turkey in the genocide, then he's not responsible for it. Turkey would have called our bluff if we had threatened anything, and had war started or sanctions been applied, Turkey would have started the genocide anyways.

Under your logic, Iran and Russia are responsible for America's crimes in Iraq since Russia could have stopped the U.S. diplomatically and Iran could have intervened physically. Yet we don't hold these nations responsible for good reasons.

I don't care about legal responsibility or whatever hocus-pocus shit is being used to justify why Trump can't possibly be blamed for knowingly and willingly taking actions that create a severely dangerous situation for the Kurds, I care about the fact of the matter that it's morally and ethically reprehensible on every level imaginable.

You might not be legally responsible for throwing open the door to one of your friends' homes to let another friend come in to kill them, knowing they were waiting on the other side to kill them, but you're sure as shit an absolute piece of shit for doing it.

Actually, you probably would be legally responsible for that in the form of aiding and abetting, which is basically what Trump's doing by knowingly giving Turkey the greenlight to invade Northern Syria.

I couldn't give less shits about Trump's ethics or his morality when Turkey is about to slaughter a few thousand Kurds. Yes, Trump did not stop Turkey if this ever happens, but that does not mean we as a nation or Trump as a person is responsible for every dead Kurd killed by Turkey. That is all on Turkey and they should be held full responsibility for it, legally, ethically and morally.

And no, it's not aiding or abetting if you never had any real power to stop that person in the beginning. The U.S. was never the door, it was just a sticky note with the word "No!" and a frowny face drawn on it. It shouldn't be surprise to anyone that our influence is waning, regardless of Trump.

[Torrocca]

I don't care about legal responsibility or whatever hocus-pocus shit is being used to justify why Trump can't possibly be blamed for knowingly and willingly taking actions that create a severely dangerous situation for the Kurds, I care about the fact of the matter that it's morally and ethically reprehensible on every level imaginable.

You might not be legally responsible for throwing open the door to one of your friends' homes to let another friend come in to kill them, knowing they were waiting on the other side to kill them, but you're sure as shit an absolute piece of shit for doing it.

Actually, you probably would be legally responsible for that in the form of aiding and abetting, which is basically what Trump's doing by knowingly giving Turkey the greenlight to invade Northern Syria.

I couldn't give less shits about Trump's ethics or his morality when Turkey is about to slaughter a few thousand Kurds. Yes, Trump did not stop Turkey if this ever happens, but that does not mean we as a nation or Trump as a person is responsible for every dead Kurd killed by Turkey. That is all on Turkey and they should be held full responsibility for it, legally, ethically and morally.

And no, it's not aiding or abetting if you never had any real power to stop that person in the beginning. The U.S. was never the door, it was just a sticky note with the word "No!" and a frowny face drawn on it. It shouldn't be surprise to anyone that our influence is waning, regardless of Trump.

There's a damn good reason that it wasn't until US forces were withdrawn that the Turkish military attacked, and you know it.

[Duhon]

I don't care about legal responsibility or whatever hocus-pocus shit is being used to justify why Trump can't possibly be blamed for knowingly and willingly taking actions that create a severely dangerous situation for the Kurds, I care about the fact of the matter that it's morally and ethically reprehensible on every level imaginable.

You might not be legally responsible for throwing open the door to one of your friends' homes to let another friend come in to kill them, knowing they were waiting on the other side to kill them, but you're sure as shit an absolute piece of shit for doing it.

Actually, you probably would be legally responsible for that in the form of aiding and abetting, which is basically what Trump's doing by knowingly giving Turkey the greenlight to invade Northern Syria.

I couldn't give less shits about Trump's ethics or his morality when Turkey is about to slaughter a few thousand Kurds. Yes, Trump did not stop Turkey if this ever happens, but that does not mean we as a nation or Trump as a person is responsible for every dead Kurd killed by Turkey. That is all on Turkey and they should be held full responsibility for it, legally, ethically and morally.

And no, it's not aiding or abetting if you never had any real power to stop that person in the beginning. The U.S. was never the door, it was just a sticky note with the word "No!" and a frowny face drawn on it. It shouldn't be surprise to anyone that our influence is waning, regardless of Trump.

the us had real power to stop the turks just by standing in between them and the kurds
that was literally the point why us troops leaving was so infuriating to most everyone
what is happening now and what will happen next will be as much on trump as it is on erdogan and his army and whoever else is now streaming off the border

[Miami Shores]

I couldn't give less shits about Trump's ethics or his morality when Turkey is about to slaughter a few thousand Kurds. Yes, Trump did not stop Turkey if this ever happens, but that does not mean we as a nation or Trump as a person is responsible for every dead Kurd killed by Turkey. That is all on Turkey and they should be held full responsibility for it, legally, ethically and morally.

And no, it's not aiding or abetting if you never had any real power to stop that person in the beginning. The U.S. was never the door, it was just a sticky note with the word "No!" and a frowny face drawn on it. It shouldn't be surprise to anyone that our influence is waning, regardless of Trump.

There's a damn good reason that it wasn't until US forces were withdrawn that the Turkish military attacked, and you know it.

But the point is no matter the outcomes it doesn't make Trump guilty of Turkey's military actions, or genocide against anyone.

[Duhon]

There's a damn good reason that it wasn't until US forces were withdrawn that the Turkish military attacked, and you know it.

But the point is no matter the outcomes it doesn't make Trump guilty of Turkey's military actions, or genocide against anyone.

literally what

[Militant Costco]

I couldn't give less shits about Trump's ethics or his morality when Turkey is about to slaughter a few thousand Kurds. Yes, Trump did not stop Turkey if this ever happens, but that does not mean we as a nation or Trump as a person is responsible for every dead Kurd killed by Turkey. That is all on Turkey and they should be held full responsibility for it, legally, ethically and morally.

And no, it's not aiding or abetting if you never had any real power to stop that person in the beginning. The U.S. was never the door, it was just a sticky note with the word "No!" and a frowny face drawn on it. It shouldn't be surprise to anyone that our influence is waning, regardless of Trump.

There's a damn good reason that it wasn't until US forces were withdrawn that the Turkish military attacked, and you know it.

Yeah because Turkey isn't beyond stupid enough to cause that major of a diplomatic incident. Does anybody seriously think the U.S. would have invaded if Turkey attacked the Kurds? We have some of the biggest war-hawks in history and yet we couldn't hold them. You think Pence, Biden, Sanders, Pelosi, or any administration could have stopped Turkey from committing a domestic policy it's held as one of it's top priorities for decades?

[Duhon]

There's a damn good reason that it wasn't until US forces were withdrawn that the Turkish military attacked, and you know it.

Yeah because Turkey isn't beyond stupid enough to cause that major of a diplomatic incident. Does anybody seriously think the U.S. would have invaded if Turkey attacked the Kurds? We have some of the biggest war-hawks in history and yet we couldn't hold them. You think Pence, Biden, Sanders, Pelosi, or any administration could have stopped Turkey from committing a domestic policy it's held as one of it's top priorities for decades?

why is turkey only attacking now, now that us troops have left?

[Militant Costco]

I couldn't give less shits about Trump's ethics or his morality when Turkey is about to slaughter a few thousand Kurds. Yes, Trump did not stop Turkey if this ever happens, but that does not mean we as a nation or Trump as a person is responsible for every dead Kurd killed by Turkey. That is all on Turkey and they should be held full responsibility for it, legally, ethically and morally.

And no, it's not aiding or abetting if you never had any real power to stop that person in the beginning. The U.S. was never the door, it was just a sticky note with the word "No!" and a frowny face drawn on it. It shouldn't be surprise to anyone that our influence is waning, regardless of Trump.

the us had real power to stop the turks just by standing in between them and the kurds
that was literally the point why us troops leaving was so infuriating to most everyone
what is happening now and what will happen next will be as much on trump as it is on erdogan and his army and whoever else is now streaming off the border

They literally just ignored our demands to stop buying S400's despite our threat of cancelling their million dollars of investments on one of the best fighter jets in the world today. They constantly invade Greek airspace with their fighter jets and are in a showdown with NATO forces in Cyprus. We don't hold any leverage over them.

[Militant Costco]

Yeah because Turkey isn't beyond stupid enough to cause that major of a diplomatic incident. Does anybody seriously think the U.S. would have invaded if Turkey attacked the Kurds? We have some of the biggest war-hawks in history and yet we couldn't hold them. You think Pence, Biden, Sanders, Pelosi, or any administration could have stopped Turkey from committing a domestic policy it's held as one of it's top priorities for decades?

why is turkey only attacking now, now that us troops have left?

Yeah because Turkey isn't beyond stupid enough to cause that major of a diplomatic incident. Does anybody seriously think the U.S. would have invaded if Turkey attacked the Kurds? We have some of the biggest war-hawks in history and yet we couldn't hold them. You think Pence, Biden, Sanders, Pelosi, or any administration could have stopped Turkey from committing a domestic policy it's held as one of it's top priorities for decades?

[Telconi]

Those damned Montenegrans, not stopping the Turkish army from killing Kurds.

what is your fucking point

Ok.

i know your fucking point
just stop

Well the Montenegran army isn't stationing troops in Syria to restrain the Turks...

[Torrocca]

There's a damn good reason that it wasn't until US forces were withdrawn that the Turkish military attacked, and you know it.

Yeah because Turkey isn't beyond stupid enough to cause that major of a diplomatic incident.

That's exactly the fucking point I'm making as to why withdrawing the US troops from Syria means Trump also bears responsibility for whatever atrocities occur. The invasion would not have happened without the troops being withdrawn, and he fucking knew it.

[Miami Shores]

But the point is no matter the outcomes it doesn't make Trump guilty of Turkey's military actions, or genocide against anyone.

literally what

Just in case you have not read my posts, I am against Donnie's announced policy, but Donnie does not order Turkey's military to do anything or commit genocide against anyone, even if that is the outcome by Turkey of Trump's policy of bringing the troops home.

[Duhon]

why is turkey only attacking now, now that us troops have left?

Yeah because Turkey isn't beyond stupid enough to cause that major of a diplomatic incident. Does anybody seriously think the U.S. would have invaded if Turkey attacked the Kurds? We have some of the biggest war-hawks in history and yet we couldn't hold them. You think Pence, Biden, Sanders, Pelosi, or any administration could have stopped Turkey from committing a domestic policy it's held as one of it's top priorities for decades?

and it would've kept on not being stupid had us troops stayed there
or at least arranged a sort of dmz, but this time for turk and kurd
or some shit
instead we got trump selling yet another people upriver for shits and giggles

[Duhon]

why is turkey only attacking now, now that us troops have left?

Yeah because Turkey isn't beyond stupid enough to cause that major of a diplomatic incident. Does anybody seriously think the U.S. would have invaded if Turkey attacked the Kurds? We have some of the biggest war-hawks in history and yet we couldn't hold them. You think Pence, Biden, Sanders, Pelosi, or any administration could have stopped Turkey from committing a domestic policy it's held as one of it's top priorities for decades?

and it would've kept on not being stupid had us troops stayed there
or at least arranged a sort of dmz, but this time for turk and kurd
or some shit
instead we got trump selling yet another people upriver for shits and giggles

[Miami Shores]

and it would've kept on not being stupid had us troops stayed there
or at least arranged a sort of dmz, but this time for turk and kurd
or some shit
instead we got trump selling yet another people upriver for shits and giggles

"for shits and giggles" I don't even know what that means, but it sounds like your opinion you have a right to have but not a fact.

[Militant Costco]

Yeah because Turkey isn't beyond stupid enough to cause that major of a diplomatic incident.

That's exactly the fucking point I'm making as to why withdrawing the US troops from Syria means Trump also bears responsibility for whatever atrocities occur. The invasion would not have happened without the troops being withdrawn, and he fucking knew it.

That doesn't make us responsible, and neither does that mean we could have held them forever. Turkey has absolutely no regards in terms of their alliance and they know they could just switch sides to Russia and what a blow that would be for us. Believe it or not, we aren't the center of the world and if nations really want to do something, they can.

[Militant Costco]

and it would've kept on not being stupid had us troops stayed there
or at least arranged a sort of dmz, but this time for turk and kurd
or some shit
instead we got trump selling yet another people upriver for shits and giggles

I'm not going to sit here and soapbox that Trump has the best moral values and ethics. But at the end of the day, it's not America that's committing these crimes, and anything less than putting full blame on Turkey is letting them get away with genocide.

[Gormwood]

Why does Trump seem to be insisting on destroying our ability to provide pressure abroad. This somewhat what I was worried about when he was elected, that he would fail badly at foreign policy.

Almost like he's hobbling the U.S. as a favor in exchange for something.

[Gormwood]

I'm not saying we declare war on Turkey, I'm saying we keep patrolling the border and apply economic pressure to dissway them from launching a military occupation and displacing the Kurds, which is their plan.

The politics of the situation don't factor in, preventing the most amount of violence means leaving US troops on the border until we have assurances Turkey won't fuck up the situation infinitely more than it already is, because believe it or not, other nationstates are totally capable of screwing up occupations and doing horrendous things.

This is not even to mention that abandoning a long-term US ally like this is a real bad look.

Why the fuck should we wait for the Turks to start ethnically cleansing Northern Syria when we already know that's what they intend to do? Literally what sense does that make?

Turkey already has very little incentives to stay in NATO and right now, we gain a lot more from them being an ally than they do from us. Pressure them the wrong way, and you'll push Turkey into the hands of Russia, and then we really won't be able to do jack when they start murdering the Kurds.

And so if Erdogan demands Gülen handed over or else he goes play with Putin it's "Bye Fethullah, I hear Turkish prisons are comfy"?

[Militant Costco]

Why does Trump seem to be insisting on destroying our ability to provide pressure abroad. This somewhat what I was worried about when he was elected, that he would fail badly at foreign policy.

Almost like he's hobbling the U.S. as a favor in exchange for something.

Unless we're going down that "Trump is Putin's sock puppet" thing, the only reason why Trump would do this is to keep either Turkey in NATO, and thus Russia contained (personally I feel this is too intelligent for Trump to think of and more likely the military's view) or to prevent another costly war that we have to get dragged into and hurting Trump's reelection in the process.

[Miami Shores]

Why does Trump seem to be insisting on destroying our ability to provide pressure abroad. This somewhat what I was worried about when he was elected, that he would fail badly at foreign policy.

Almost like he's hobbling the U.S. as a favor in exchange for something.

another Quid pro quo lol.

[Militant Costco]

Turkey already has very little incentives to stay in NATO and right now, we gain a lot more from them being an ally than they do from us. Pressure them the wrong way, and you'll push Turkey into the hands of Russia, and then we really won't be able to do jack when they start murdering the Kurds.

And so if Erdogan demands Gülen handed over or else he goes play with Putin it's "Bye Fethullah, I hear Turkish prisons are comfy"?

You seriously think Trump will stop that if Erdogan demands it?

As long as Trump gets something in return (more than just alliance) like trade agreements or, depending on how corrupt you think he is, hotel permits, Trump will do it. He has absolutely no connection to Fethullah. Only thing keeping him cozy in the U.S. are Trump's advisers and other government admins.

[Torrocca]

That's exactly the fucking point I'm making as to why withdrawing the US troops from Syria means Trump also bears responsibility for whatever atrocities occur. The invasion would not have happened without the troops being withdrawn, and he fucking knew it.

That doesn't make us responsible, and neither does that mean we could have held them forever. Turkey has absolutely no regards in terms of their alliance and they know they could just switch sides to Russia and what a blow that would be for us. Believe it or not, we aren't the center of the world and if nations really want to do something, they can.

It absolutely makes Trump responsible when the US military presence in the region was an active deterrence to Erdogan's planned invasion. Multiple parties and individuals can bear responsibility for bad things happening, champ; the Turkish military would be directly responsible for committing atrocities, and Trump would be indirectly responsible for removing the one and only safeguard that was openly preventing those atrocities.

[Loben The 2nd]

That doesn't make us responsible, and neither does that mean we could have held them forever. Turkey has absolutely no regards in terms of their alliance and they know they could just switch sides to Russia and what a blow that would be for us. Believe it or not, we aren't the center of the world and if nations really want to do something, they can.

It absolutely makes Trump responsible when the US military presence in the region was an active deterrence to Erdogan's planned invasion. Multiple parties and individuals can bear responsibility for bad things happening, champ; the Turkish military would be directly responsible for committing atrocities, and Trump would be indirectly responsible for removing the one and only safeguard that was openly preventing those atrocities.

i wouldnt say the kurds are an entirely innocent party.

[Miami Shores]

That doesn't make us responsible, and neither does that mean we could have held them forever. Turkey has absolutely no regards in terms of their alliance and they know they could just switch sides to Russia and what a blow that would be for us. Believe it or not, we aren't the center of the world and if nations really want to do something, they can.

It absolutely makes Trump responsible when the US military presence in the region was an active deterrence to Erdogan's planned invasion. Multiple parties and individuals can bear responsibility for bad things happening, champ; the Turkish military would be directly responsible for committing atrocities, and Trump would be indirectly responsible for removing the one and only safeguard that was openly preventing those atrocities.

So do the Democrats have a new reason to impeach Donnie Trump on?