MAGAThread XVI: Raising the Barr

[Gravlen]

So don't join the army again, simples.

It’s the principle of the matter. We shouldn’t be wasting billions on things that don’t concern us. Terrorism will never go away, so instead of fighting it far off we should be preventing it here at home

I like this attitude of "We shouldn't be fighting terrorists far off, we should fight them here at home." It feels honest, and I have respect for someone who don't demand that citizen of another country do the fighting and dying for them.

[Gormwood]

It’s the principle of the matter. We shouldn’t be wasting billions on things that don’t concern us. Terrorism will never go away, so instead of fighting it far off we should be preventing it here at home

I like this attitude of "We shouldn't be fighting terrorists far off, we should fight them here at home." It feels honest, and I have respect for someone who don't demand that citizen of another country do the fighting and dying for them.

Remember when Republicans said we should fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

[Thermodolia]

We supported the Syrian opposition starting in 2011. We did both. We bombed both

Source showing the bombing of Syria in 2011?

Well apparently I was mistaken. While we didn’t bomb them we definitely funneled weapons and funds to the opposition and sanctioned the hell out of Syria.

If we had left them alone and prevented a global engagement in Syria than Isis wouldn’t have been the issue it was. Hell if we never invaded Iraq in 03 none of this would be a problem. But unfortunately we think we are the police of the world.

[Thermodolia]

I like this attitude of "We shouldn't be fighting terrorists far off, we should fight them here at home." It feels honest, and I have respect for someone who don't demand that citizen of another country do the fighting and dying for them.

Remember when Republicans said we should fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Remember when I supported the republicans politically? Oh wait it doesn’t exist because it never happened

[Spirit of Hope]

You do realize terrorists will travel from far away to here at home, correct?

Oh wow I didn’t know that, I guess this fucking old medic is just a big fat idiot. Thanks officer.

United States has Global interests, not because of morality but because the world is interconnected. Terrorism in Syria can lead to terrorism here.

The Syrian government can handle the terrorists themselves. We don’t need to get involved. We have enough homegrown terrorists to worry about anyway

The Syrian government encouraged terrorists, so no I'm not sure they can handle it. Your free to have your opinion, and I'm free to disagree with it.

As to all the same people saying we should intervene in Iraq, no pretty sure you will find a lot of people disagreeing with that stance both then and now. Afganistan is a little mor complicated, and rather beyond the scope of this discussion.

[Ifreann]

So don't join the army again, simples.

It’s the principle of the matter. We shouldn’t be wasting billions on things that don’t concern us.

This does concern America, you're already involved. That you personally don't approve of America being involved is beside the point, your disapproval cannot go back in time and prevent US intervention in Syria.

Terrorism will never go away, so instead of fighting it far off we should be preventing it here at home

Yeah man, let your enemies get as rich and powerful as they possibly can and wait until they've attacked you before doing anything about them. You don't need a fire extinguisher until your house is already on fire. Wait until you're so sick that you collapse before going to the doctor. Very pragmatic approach. I'm sure you'll have great heaping piles of money to hide under when the world you tried to ignore comes knocking.

[Loben The 2nd]

Since when did you become the interventionist

Wanting to honor your end of a deal is now interventionism. Looks like you think Trump had a great idea stiffing employees and small businesses.

We have altered the deal, the socialist Kurds best pray we don’t alter it further.

[Thermodolia]

Oh wow I didn’t know that, I guess this fucking old medic is just a big fat idiot. Thanks officer.


The Syrian government can handle the terrorists themselves. We don’t need to get involved. We have enough homegrown terrorists to worry about anyway

The Syrian government encouraged terrorists, so no I'm not sure they can handle it. Your free to have your opinion, and I'm free to disagree with it.

When it comes to ISIS, which is what we started talking about, they definitely can handle it. Besides I’m of the mind that nations can handle themselves and don’t need a big foreign nation poking in their Affairs.

As to all the same people saying we should intervene in Iraq, no pretty sure you will find a lot of people disagreeing with that stance both then and now. Afganistan is a little mor complicated, and rather beyond the scope of this discussion.

And yet we still invaded them because the experts said terrorism! We never should have destabilized the region

[Thermodolia]

It’s the principle of the matter. We shouldn’t be wasting billions on things that don’t concern us.

This does concern America, you're already involved.

I have this shocking new idea for you. Become uninvolved. We don’t need to stick around anymore. Oh job is done.

That you personally don't approve of America being involved is beside the point, your disapproval cannot go back in time and prevent US intervention in Syria.

Never said that it could. What I have been saying is that we don’t need to be there and that’s we shouldn’t have been there.

It’s American and western centric to believe that nations like Syria can’t handle themselves

Terrorism will never go away, so instead of fighting it far off we should be preventing it here at home

Yeah man, let your enemies get as rich and powerful as they possibly can and wait until they've attacked you before doing anything about them. You don't need a fire extinguisher until your house is already on fire. Wait until you're so sick that you collapse before going to the doctor. Very pragmatic approach. I'm sure you'll have great heaping piles of money to hide under when the world you tried to ignore comes knocking.

Ya got enough straw there to start a fire there iffy. Be careful you don’t catch yourself on fire.

I’m not saying that we don’t fight terrorism. I’m saying that we do it differently. We aren’t going to shoot our way to ending terrorism. We don’t need to be in Syria to fight terrorists. We have plenty of homegrown terrorists we can fight here for starters

[Gravlen]

Source showing the bombing of Syria in 2011?

Well apparently I was mistaken. While we didn’t bomb them we definitely funneled weapons and funds to the opposition and sanctioned the hell out of Syria.

If we had left them alone and prevented a global engagement in Syria than Isis wouldn’t have been the issue it was. Hell if we never invaded Iraq in 03 none of this would be a problem. But unfortunately we think we are the police of the world.

I agree about Iraq, though I believe the invasion of Iraq was the bigger problem when it came to creating a breeding ground for Daesh/ISIL/ISIS/IS.

Also, the problem was less "the police of the world" and more "imperialistic bullies" when it came to Iraq. The US went on that adventure alone (yeah yeah, coalition of the willing and all that jazz, not forgetting Poland) and contrary to expert advice from all sides, while truly expecting to be greeted as liberators in a war which could pay for itself and which would be over so fast there would be no reason to create any exit strategies or even have a plan for what post-Saddam Iraq would look like in the short or the long term.

(Most of all, after the decision to invade, the subsequent policy of de-Ba'athification was the root cause for much of the strife we've seen since 2003. Thank you Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith and Donald Rumsfeld, for the gift that keeps giving.)

[Ifreann]

This does concern America, you're already involved.

I have this shocking new idea for you. Become uninvolved. We don’t need to stick around anymore. Oh job is done.

The job is not done when you decide you don't want to do it any more, it is done when it is done.

That you personally don't approve of America being involved is beside the point, your disapproval cannot go back in time and prevent US intervention in Syria.

Never said that it could. What I have been saying is that we don’t need to be there and that’s we shouldn’t have been there.

But you are there, and your plans to pull out are already making things worse. Leaving people to die is immoral even if you think you should never have been in a position where you leaving will endanger them.

It’s American and western centric to believe that nations like Syria can’t handle themselves

Don't act like that's anything to do with your position.

Yeah man, let your enemies get as rich and powerful as they possibly can and wait until they've attacked you before doing anything about them. You don't need a fire extinguisher until your house is already on fire. Wait until you're so sick that you collapse before going to the doctor. Very pragmatic approach. I'm sure you'll have great heaping piles of money to hide under when the world you tried to ignore comes knocking.

Ya got enough straw there to start a fire there iffy. Be careful you don’t catch yourself on fire.

They're analogies, not strawmen. It's a common rhetorical device, not a logical fallacy. You very plainly saying that America should ignore the world beyond its borders, let ISIS grow they're someone else's problem, let Assad murder his people, he's their problem, let Russia grow, they're someone else's problem, let anyone out there do anything, it's not your problem until it's on your side of the imaginary line. And I am saying that that is stupid. I am comparing that to other stupid ideas to illustrate how it is stupid. Burying your head in the sand does not make you safe from the outside world. That's why ostriches don't actually do that.

I’m not saying that we don’t fight terrorism. I’m saying that we do it differently. We aren’t going to shoot our way to ending terrorism. We don’t need to be in Syria to fight terrorists. We have plenty of homegrown terrorists we can fight here for starters

You're an enormously rich country, you can easily police domestic terrorists and maintain your presence in Syria until it is actually safe to pull out.

[Moral Absolutism Inc]

indeed it was their choice. perhaps because they recognized that making impeachment a partisan process isn't really good for the country. even the Republicans trying to impeach Clinton held a full vote before the House.

It was a completely partisan effort, but sure we'll say it wasn't because the held a vote.

Never mind President Trump is barring people from talking to the committee, if he has done nothing wrong, what is wrong with the House Intelligence Committee doing it's job and gathering evidence?

In the case of an impeachment the US House serves as a quasi grand jury which decides whether to indict. The Chief Justice and the US Senate serve as judge and jury. The president shall make his case to the US Senate and not the investigating body which is the House. That's the way a high government official is held accountable. All this blubbering by Trumps supporters about not getting a fair hearing in the House only spotlights their ignorance of the process. Sheesh.

[San Lumen]

It was a completely partisan effort, but sure we'll say it wasn't because the held a vote.

Never mind President Trump is barring people from talking to the committee, if he has done nothing wrong, what is wrong with the House Intelligence Committee doing it's job and gathering evidence?

In the case of an impeachment the US House serves as a quasi grand jury which decides whether to indict. The Chief Justice and the US Senate serve as judge and jury. The president shall make his case to the US Senate and not the investigating body which is the House. That's the way a high government official is held accountable. All this blubbering by Trumps supporters about not getting a fair hearing in the House only spotlights their ignorance of the process. Sheesh.

In their view Trump can do no wrong and Congress should just be a rubber stamp and judges should be lap dogs.

[The Emerald Legion]

It was a completely partisan effort, but sure we'll say it wasn't because the held a vote.

Never mind President Trump is barring people from talking to the committee, if he has done nothing wrong, what is wrong with the House Intelligence Committee doing it's job and gathering evidence?

In the case of an impeachment the US House serves as a quasi grand jury which decides whether to indict. The Chief Justice and the US Senate serve as judge and jury. The president shall make his case to the US Senate and not the investigating body which is the House. That's the way a high government official is held accountable. All this blubbering by Trumps supporters about not getting a fair hearing in the House only spotlights their ignorance of the process. Sheesh.

Well, there's the fact that the house hasn't started proper impeachment proceedings yet and is using this one foot in the door approach to keep house Republicans out of the proceedings.

[San Lumen]

In the case of an impeachment the US House serves as a quasi grand jury which decides whether to indict. The Chief Justice and the US Senate serve as judge and jury. The president shall make his case to the US Senate and not the investigating body which is the House. That's the way a high government official is held accountable. All this blubbering by Trumps supporters about not getting a fair hearing in the House only spotlights their ignorance of the process. Sheesh.

Well, there's the fact that the house hasn't started proper impeachment proceedings yet and is using this one foot in the door approach to keep house Republicans out of the proceedings.

Republicans can't acknowledge Trump broke the law and instead keep defending him because they are too afraid of a primary challenge instead of doing the right thing

[Moral Absolutism Inc]

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/10/07/trump-campaign-threatens-to-sue-target-center-if-rally-is-blocked

Trump is threatening to sue the Target Center in Downtown Minneapolis if they prevent his rally from happening on Thursday. The arena is owned by the city but operated by a private company and if they don't receive 530,000 dollars ahead of the event for security costs and other fees the Target Center has said they would “withhold use of the arena,”.

The state GOP is using this to claim the mayor of the city is preventing the president from speaking and they even using a map of state showing he won more land area like it matters. The metro area is almost 60 percent of the state.

I wish more arenas would do this. The campaign needs to pay its bills like everyone else and if they don't then they dont get to use the venue.

They have plenty enough of money to pay the bill too. I am coining the term Deadbeatism to describe Mr. Trump's long standing philosophy on paying his bills.

[San Lumen]

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/10/07/trump-campaign-threatens-to-sue-target-center-if-rally-is-blocked

Trump is threatening to sue the Target Center in Downtown Minneapolis if they prevent his rally from happening on Thursday. The arena is owned by the city but operated by a private company and if they don't receive 530,000 dollars ahead of the event for security costs and other fees the Target Center has said they would “withhold use of the arena,”.

The state GOP is using this to claim the mayor of the city is preventing the president from speaking and they even using a map of state showing he won more land area like it matters. The metro area is almost 60 percent of the state.

I wish more arenas would do this. The campaign needs to pay its bills like everyone else and if they don't then they dont get to use the venue.

They have plenty enough of money to pay the bill too. I am coining the term Deadbeatism to describe Mr. Trump's long standing philosophy on paying his bills.

It would be nice to see more venues do this. Presidential campaigns have to pay bills too and if they wont pay they dont get use of the venue

[The Emerald Legion]

Well, there's the fact that the house hasn't started proper impeachment proceedings yet and is using this one foot in the door approach to keep house Republicans out of the proceedings.

Republicans can't acknowledge Trump broke the law and instead keep defending him because they are too afraid of a primary challenge instead of doing the right thing

The right thing? Because it's only wrong when Trump does it as opposed to how Democrats did this constantly?

Trump, so far as I'm able to tell, didn't break the law.

[Valrifell]

Republicans can't acknowledge Trump broke the law and instead keep defending him because they are too afraid of a primary challenge instead of doing the right thing

The right thing? Because it's only wrong when Trump does it as opposed to how Democrats did this constantly?

Trump, so far as I'm able to tell, didn't break the law.

Yeah that's why there's an investigation, chief.

[The Emerald Legion]

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/10/07/trump-campaign-threatens-to-sue-target-center-if-rally-is-blocked

Trump is threatening to sue the Target Center in Downtown Minneapolis if they prevent his rally from happening on Thursday. The arena is owned by the city but operated by a private company and if they don't receive 530,000 dollars ahead of the event for security costs and other fees the Target Center has said they would “withhold use of the arena,”.

The state GOP is using this to claim the mayor of the city is preventing the president from speaking and they even using a map of state showing he won more land area like it matters. The metro area is almost 60 percent of the state.

I wish more arenas would do this. The campaign needs to pay its bills like everyone else and if they don't then they dont get to use the venue.

Security shouldn't be the person using the Arenas problem.

[San Lumen]

Republicans can't acknowledge Trump broke the law and instead keep defending him because they are too afraid of a primary challenge instead of doing the right thing

The right thing? Because it's only wrong when Trump does it as opposed to how Democrats did this constantly?

Trump, so far as I'm able to tell, didn't break the law.

When did Democrats solicit a foreign government for help winning a election? Thats what he did on the call. He openly called for it on the White House lawn.

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/10/07/trump-campaign-threatens-to-sue-target-center-if-rally-is-blocked

Trump is threatening to sue the Target Center in Downtown Minneapolis if they prevent his rally from happening on Thursday. The arena is owned by the city but operated by a private company and if they don't receive 530,000 dollars ahead of the event for security costs and other fees the Target Center has said they would “withhold use of the arena,”.

The state GOP is using this to claim the mayor of the city is preventing the president from speaking and they even using a map of state showing he won more land area like it matters. The metro area is almost 60 percent of the state.

I wish more arenas would do this. The campaign needs to pay its bills like everyone else and if they don't then they dont get to use the venue.

Security shouldn't be the person using the Arenas problem.

why not?

[Moral Absolutism Inc]

In the case of an impeachment the US House serves as a quasi grand jury which decides whether to indict. The Chief Justice and the US Senate serve as judge and jury. The president shall make his case to the US Senate and not the investigating body which is the House. That's the way a high government official is held accountable. All this blubbering by Trumps supporters about not getting a fair hearing in the House only spotlights their ignorance of the process. Sheesh.

Well, there's the fact that the house hasn't started proper impeachment proceedings yet and is using this one foot in the door approach to keep house Republicans out of the proceedings.

It doesn't matter. The legislative branch of government is exercising their rights. This particular executive branch thinks it's the only branch that gets to do that. Well, sorry but he's totally wrong. So they should get over it and comply with the law.
And if Donald Trump is going to count on SCOTUS to bail him out, he'd better rethink it. John Roberts (native of Maryland) is likely the decider. He was appointed by Bush 43 and owes Mr. Trump nothing but a straight reading of the constitution which I expect means he'll order The executive branch to comply with all subpoenas. Honestly, I think Donald knows that and is waiting for a particular vacancy to open on SCOTUS just in time to save his ass. His entire strategy is delay, delay, delay.

[San Lumen]

Well, there's the fact that the house hasn't started proper impeachment proceedings yet and is using this one foot in the door approach to keep house Republicans out of the proceedings.

It doesn't matter. The legislative branch of government is exercising their rights. This particular executive branch thinks it's the only branch that gets to do that. Well, sorry but he's totally wrong. So they should get over it and comply with the law.
And if Donald Trump is going to count on SCOTUS to bail him out, he'd better rethink it. John Roberts (native of Maryland) is likely the decider. He was appointed by Bush 43 and owes Mr. Trump nothing but a straight reading of the constitution which I expect means he'll order The executive branch to comply with all subpoenas. Honestly, I think Donald knows that and is waiting for a particular vacancy to open on SCOTUS just in time to save his ass.

Its doubtful Roberts gives him what he wants and Gorsch might not rule in his favor either. Ginsburg isnt going anywhere.

[Thermodolia]

Well apparently I was mistaken. While we didn’t bomb them we definitely funneled weapons and funds to the opposition and sanctioned the hell out of Syria.

If we had left them alone and prevented a global engagement in Syria than Isis wouldn’t have been the issue it was. Hell if we never invaded Iraq in 03 none of this would be a problem. But unfortunately we think we are the police of the world.

I agree about Iraq, though I believe the invasion of Iraq was the bigger problem when it came to creating a breeding ground for Daesh/ISIL/ISIS/IS.

Also, the problem was less "the police of the world" and more "imperialistic bullies" when it came to Iraq. The US went on that adventure alone (yeah yeah, coalition of the willing and all that jazz, not forgetting Poland) and contrary to expert advice from all sides, while truly expecting to be greeted as liberators in a war which could pay for itself and which would be over so fast there would be no reason to create any exit strategies or even have a plan for what post-Saddam Iraq would look like in the short or the long term.

(Most of all, after the decision to invade, the subsequent policy of de-Ba'athification was the root cause for much of the strife we've seen since 2003. Thank you Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith and Donald Rumsfeld, for the gift that keeps giving.)

Oh I definitely agree. Iraq was the worst mistake we made since Vietnam. And I view “police of the world” and “imperialistic bullies” as one in the same.

Still Cheney and co should be sitting in prison and not enjoying retirement

[The Emerald Legion]

The right thing? Because it's only wrong when Trump does it as opposed to how Democrats did this constantly?

Trump, so far as I'm able to tell, didn't break the law.

When did Democrats solicit a foreign government for help winning a election? Thats what he did on the call. He openly called for it on the White House lawn.

Security shouldn't be the person using the Arenas problem.

why not?

When Clinton took money from Qatar. The whole basis for the Russia investigation was a dossier obtained from foreigners.

And mind you. That's not what he's called for. He called for Ukraine to reopen investigations into potential misdeeds by Biden.

Full stop.

He did not ask for dirt. He did not ask for election hacking. He asked about a specific potential criminal occurence. If Biden is innocent, NOTHING wrong would happen.

As for the Arena thing. How would you feel if I decided you were dangerous and upped your rent/homeowners insurance by a few hundred thousand dollars?