MAGAThread XVI: Raising the Barr

[The Black Forrest]

Not under trump.

It is for people who generally agree with Trump.

Sure. After they are told it’s a great honor.

[Telconi]

It is for people who generally agree with Trump.

Sure. After they are told it’s a great honor.

Uh huh...

[Chan Island]

The main issue behind homelessness is the price of housing, which has been skyrocketing in the cities most affected for the past several decades. At the same time, wages have been stagnating, many sectors have been seeing massive job losses and the central government has slowly been getting more stingy with welfare. All of the other factors that you might list are associated symptoms that are described as "diseases of despair".
So yes, people do go homeless because 'there are no homes left' (more accurate of course would be to say 'they cannot afford to keep their current homes or get another one').

What about shoes? No, I'm with you on Obamacare, it's at best a stopgap appeasement policy for the private insurance industry that didn't solve any of the previous problems and (in the case of your cousin) made things actively worse. Again, we have real world examples to look to for health outcomes though and the data points in one direction. Not rocket science to copy what everyone else is doing because it's a better way of doing things.

There is a secondary issue, namely that mental health issues are high among the homeless poulation.

While a valid concern, it is worth bearing in mind that many of those issues are examples of the aforementioned diseases of despair. Depression is the classic one there. People with no prospects, no opportunities and nothing to live for easily fall into traps of depression, anger management or even in extreme cases shikzophrenia.

The main issue behind homelessness is the price of housing, which has been skyrocketing in the cities most affected for the past several decades. At the same time, wages have been stagnating, many sectors have been seeing massive job losses and the central government has slowly been getting more stingy with welfare. All of the other factors that you might list are associated symptoms that are described as "diseases of despair".
So yes, people do go homeless because 'there are no homes left' (more accurate of course would be to say 'they cannot afford to keep their current homes or get another one').

What about shoes? No, I'm with you on Obamacare, it's at best a stopgap appeasement policy for the private insurance industry that didn't solve any of the previous problems and (in the case of your cousin) made things actively worse. Again, we have real world examples to look to for health outcomes though and the data points in one direction. Not rocket science to copy what everyone else is doing because it's a better way of doing things.

Can't possibly be that people cant afford homes because they can't afford homes. As in, they do not have the income for a house. Unless you solve that you're just treating the symptom ad infinitum and do nothing in the end but possibly deflate housing prices (which has its other hosts of issues).

And no, we don't have to copy everyone else. We should have forced hospitals to be more transparent in expenditures and pricing and eliminate the bureaucracy that bloats costs on insurance and we wouldn't be spending trillions on healthcare for no good reason.

How the fuck are people supposed to afford a home when they cost 6 times their year in wages? How the fuck are families supposed to get their kids started when the price of housing keeps rising?

We want it to be cheaper. That's the point.

[Telconi]

There is a secondary issue, namely that mental health issues are high among the homeless poulation.

While a valid concern, it is worth bearing in mind that many of those issues are examples of the aforementioned diseases of despair. Depression is the classic one there. People with no prospects, no opportunities and nothing to live for easily fall into traps of depression, anger management or even in extreme cases shikzophrenia.

Can't possibly be that people cant afford homes because they can't afford homes. As in, they do not have the income for a house. Unless you solve that you're just treating the symptom ad infinitum and do nothing in the end but possibly deflate housing prices (which has its other hosts of issues).

And no, we don't have to copy everyone else. We should have forced hospitals to be more transparent in expenditures and pricing and eliminate the bureaucracy that bloats costs on insurance and we wouldn't be spending trillions on healthcare for no good reason.

How the fuck are people supposed to afford a home when they cost 6 times their year in wages? How the fuck are families supposed to get their kids started when the price of housing keeps rising?

We want it to be cheaper. That's the point.

The same way most folks afford homes, purchase on credit.

[Grand Britannia]

There is a secondary issue, namely that mental health issues are high among the homeless poulation.

While a valid concern, it is worth bearing in mind that many of those issues are examples of the aforementioned diseases of despair. Depression is the classic one there. People with no prospects, no opportunities and nothing to live for easily fall into traps of depression, anger management or even in extreme cases shikzophrenia.

Can't possibly be that people cant afford homes because they can't afford homes. As in, they do not have the income for a house. Unless you solve that you're just treating the symptom ad infinitum and do nothing in the end but possibly deflate housing prices (which has its other hosts of issues).

And no, we don't have to copy everyone else. We should have forced hospitals to be more transparent in expenditures and pricing and eliminate the bureaucracy that bloats costs on insurance and we wouldn't be spending trillions on healthcare for no good reason.

How the fuck are people supposed to afford a home when they cost 6 times their year in wages? How the fuck are families supposed to get their kids started when the price of housing keeps rising?

We want it to be cheaper. That's the point.

Dunno man cars aren't 6 times most people's yearly wage but people still buy them on a car loan.

It's almost as if people with stable jobs and a living income can afford to purchase things for themselves.

[Annihilators of Chan Island]

While a valid concern, it is worth bearing in mind that many of those issues are examples of the aforementioned diseases of despair. Depression is the classic one there. People with no prospects, no opportunities and nothing to live for easily fall into traps of depression, anger management or even in extreme cases shikzophrenia.



How the fuck are people supposed to afford a home when they cost 6 times their year in wages? How the fuck are families supposed to get their kids started when the price of housing keeps rising?

We want it to be cheaper. That's the point.

The same way most folks afford homes, purchase on credit.

[Ifreann]

Am I supposed to believe any politician does beyond checking if they'll get reelected?

Live at that level of cynicism if you want, my point is that what will help the homeless is not actually a factor being considered by the Trump Administration.

[The Black Forrest]

By rounding them up in a facility? Bearing in mind the conditions at the easily comparable migrant facilities, I think assistance in the conventional definition might not be the top priority.

Besides, it's a silly idea because Utah's shown us how to really tackle a homelessness problem. Build more homes. All other options are just window dressing.

People hate the homeless because they're helping them wrong... Golly gee...

I am sure they will receive the same amount of care like the camps at the border.

Moving them out of view is not caring for them.

Then again, he will probably get Mexico to pay for this as well.

[The Black Forrest]

Am I supposed to believe any politician does beyond checking if they'll get reelected?

Live at that level of cynicism if you want, my point is that what will help the homeless is not actually a factor being considered by the Trump Administration.

Indeed. This will be forgotten really quick.

[Grand Britannia]

[spoiler]

The same way most folks afford homes, purchase on credit.

And what happened the last time lots of folks started taking big loans to get houses they otherwise could never afford nor pay back? Back in 2008, say.

Dunno man cars aren't 6 times most people's yearly wage but people still buy them on a car loan.

It's almost as if people with stable jobs and a living income can afford to purchase things for themselves.

Cars are still a substantial sum to pay as a lump sum, so it makes sense. That evades the main point. Housing has become far more expensive than cars, to the extent that there are people who live in their cars (or, even more commonly, in mobile homes).

And again, that stable job becomes less important when it's got virtually the same real wage as the job had in 1970, but the price of housing has tripled. Of course, I am fully in support of a living wage and making pay higher, but that still runs into the supply problem. Homelessness won't be solved until there is enough housing for them to live in. Once again, red state Utah has shown us how to do it, it's not rocket surgery or some cooky theory in a book with a hammer & sickle on it. We know empirically the solution, and we know it works, and is both cheaper for the state and is better for everyone in the long run. Just build more affordable housing.

(And on that note- getting a job is hard enough when there is no address or place to store clean clothes for someone... not to mention that there is a growing proportion of people who are in work (illegally in many cases) while having no home, a situation that is less than ideal I hope you'd agree. And no, it's rarely conducive to being able to afford a home because try getting a bank account without an address).

If I had a decent job and couldn't afford my home I'd prolly try a motor home, literally anything is a better alternative than the street.

Also omegalul if they're working illegally that pay aint gonna be enough for jack shit which goes back to what I keep saying that there are not enough jobs that pay enough.

[Gravlen]

Oh great. More proof Trump is a traitor. Bolton should primary him.

Today I learned that getting rid of a person that the guy on the other side of the table refuses to work with, is tantamount to treason.

Why would the "guy on the other side of the table", Chairman Kim of North Korea, work with a US National Security Adviser, Bolton, in the first place?

[Gormwood]

Today I learned that getting rid of a person that the guy on the other side of the table refuses to work with, is tantamount to treason.

Why would the "guy on the other side of the table", Chairman Kim of North Korea, work with a US National Security Adviser, Bolton, in the first place?

And if Obama had fired a cabinet member or department official supposedly due to Kim or some other rogue state leader not liking him or her guaranteed conservatives would shriek about it for months.

[Chan Island]

And what happened the last time lots of folks started taking big loans to get houses they otherwise could never afford nor pay back? Back in 2008, say.



Cars are still a substantial sum to pay as a lump sum, so it makes sense. That evades the main point. Housing has become far more expensive than cars, to the extent that there are people who live in their cars (or, even more commonly, in mobile homes).

And again, that stable job becomes less important when it's got virtually the same real wage as the job had in 1970, but the price of housing has tripled. Of course, I am fully in support of a living wage and making pay higher, but that still runs into the supply problem. Homelessness won't be solved until there is enough housing for them to live in. Once again, red state Utah has shown us how to do it, it's not rocket surgery or some cooky theory in a book with a hammer & sickle on it. We know empirically the solution, and we know it works, and is both cheaper for the state and is better for everyone in the long run. Just build more affordable housing.

(And on that note- getting a job is hard enough when there is no address or place to store clean clothes for someone... not to mention that there is a growing proportion of people who are in work (illegally in many cases) while having no home, a situation that is less than ideal I hope you'd agree. And no, it's rarely conducive to being able to afford a home because try getting a bank account without an address).

If I had a decent job and couldn't afford my home I'd prolly try a motor home, literally anything is a better alternative than the street.

Also omegalul if they're working illegally that pay aint gonna be enough for jack shit which goes back to what I keep saying that there are not enough jobs that pay enough.

And if you had, say, just lost your job and had no savings because it was all going into extortionate rent then what? Stories like that are extremely common among the homeless.

You laugh, but that is the grim reality for many people at the very bottom of our society. It's work illegally without regulations for cash in hand to get you fed, or try your luck begging. Getting a real job while homeless is next to impossible.

The funny part here is that I completely agree with you vis-a-vis jobs. It's an important factor, and every effort needs to be made to make more of them available, but if your goal is to end homelessness (and that's both morally and practically a very necessary thing to have happen), then we have the data. It's called building homes.

[Grand Britannia]

If I had a decent job and couldn't afford my home I'd prolly try a motor home, literally anything is a better alternative than the street.

Also omegalul if they're working illegally that pay aint gonna be enough for jack shit which goes back to what I keep saying that there are not enough jobs that pay enough.

And if you had, say, just lost your job and had no savings because it was all going into extortionate rent then what? Stories like that are extremely common among the homeless.

You laugh, but that is the grim reality for many people at the very bottom of our society. It's work illegally without regulations for cash in hand to get you fed, or try your luck begging. Getting a real job while homeless is next to impossible.

The funny part here is that I completely agree with you vis-a-vis jobs. It's an important factor, and every effort needs to be made to make more of them available, but if your goal is to end homelessness (and that's both morally and practically a very necessary thing to have happen), then we have the data. It's called building homes.

Would they not have to pay some severance? I'd take that and move. Which is precisely why a lot of people are abandoning the state.

My point is simply building houses fixes nothing because you can't pay rent on a cheap house with no job.

[Chan Island]

And if you had, say, just lost your job and had no savings because it was all going into extortionate rent then what? Stories like that are extremely common among the homeless.

You laugh, but that is the grim reality for many people at the very bottom of our society. It's work illegally without regulations for cash in hand to get you fed, or try your luck begging. Getting a real job while homeless is next to impossible.

The funny part here is that I completely agree with you vis-a-vis jobs. It's an important factor, and every effort needs to be made to make more of them available, but if your goal is to end homelessness (and that's both morally and practically a very necessary thing to have happen), then we have the data. It's called building homes.

Would they not have to pay some severance? I'd take that and move. Which is precisely why a lot of people are abandoning the state.

My point is simply building houses fixes nothing because you can't pay rent on a cheap house with no job.

Maybe, but that's not something that happens with every job loss. As for leaving the state- I assume you mean California, and thus yes. The high cost of housing is one of the biggest causes of people leaving that place.

And my point is that you can't get a real job without a home, and that whenever the idea of just building homes has been implemented, it has been massively successful.

[Zhivotnoye]

In that case we should thank Kim for once.



Thanks for this. At least this is far more reasonable than just "Kim didn't like him so he had to go".

I agree that the full context of the statement tempers it, and that it is more reasonable to point out Bolton’s fuckup with him suggesting a Libyan solution. However, Trump did go too far by implying that Kim’s personal dislike was a factor in his decision. Kim’s feelings about Bolton should be irrelevant, and should not have been brought up.

Still, in the age of Trump, this is a minor niggle and not (yet another) scandal.

Agreed.

[WayNeacTia]

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/world/ ... 5.amp.html

'I always look orange': Trump says energy-efficient light bulbs not a good look for him

I knew there had to be some rational explanation for it all this time. It was the light bulbs.

[Galloism]

Trump blamed energy-saving bulbs for making him look orange. Experts say probably not.

[Nakena]

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/world/2019/9/13/1_4592005.amp.html

'I always look orange': Trump says energy-efficient light bulbs not a good look for him

I knew there had to be some rational explanation for it all this time. It was the light bulbs.

He isn't entirely wrong.

Some kinds of energy-efficient light-bulbs (CFL) contain mercury.

[Izandai]

Since it seems we're still playing the "is this real news or is it satire" game:

Trump evoked stunned silence by shouting "Where's my favorite dictator?" at meeting with Egyptian officials

[Gormwood]

Since it seems we're still playing the "is this real news or is it satire" game:

Trump evoked stunned silence by shouting "Where's my favorite dictator?" at meeting with Egyptian officials

"It's a JOKE! When you make that face, that means it's a JOKE!"

Imagine the wolfpack howl through the country if Obama had said that about any foreign leader even as a joke.

[Salandriagado]

By rounding them up in a facility? Bearing in mind the conditions at the easily comparable migrant facilities, I think assistance in the conventional definition might not be the top priority.

Besides, it's a silly idea because Utah's shown us how to really tackle a homelessness problem. Build more homes. All other options are just window dressing.

Dude just make the homeless buy homes and no more homeless lmao.

Sounds about as stupid as forcing people to buy insura- oh wait.

No, Utah just gave them homes. Which worked out excellently: it turns out the cost to the state of dealing with all of the medical emergencies that come from living on the streets is higher than the cost of a house.

[Galloism]

Dude just make the homeless buy homes and no more homeless lmao.

Sounds about as stupid as forcing people to buy insura- oh wait.

No, Utah just gave them homes. Which worked out excellently: it turns out the cost to the state of dealing with all of the medical emergencies that come from living on the streets is higher than the cost of a house.

Well, they were one bedroom apartments with a shower and a stovetop, not houses, but in principle, yes.

[Telconi]

No, Utah just gave them homes. Which worked out excellently: it turns out the cost to the state of dealing with all of the medical emergencies that come from living on the streets is higher than the cost of a house.

Well, they were one bedroom apartments with a shower and a stovetop, not houses, but in principle, yes.

Still though, just having a little studio apartment to be your own is a massive boon. The constant loss often prevents the homeless from ever making net progress.

[Galloism]

Well, they were one bedroom apartments with a shower and a stovetop, not houses, but in principle, yes.

Still though, just having a little studio apartment to be your own is a massive boon. The constant loss often prevents the homeless from ever making net progress.

Yeah, one of the huge factors (ironically enough) was just having a locking door where you can put your stuff. Homeless people suffer constant episodes of theft, assault, robbery, etc, and so can never actually build enough assets to get a straight job, and I'm not even particularly talking about cash - I mean things like clothes that don't look like utter shit.

Another one, and this seems silly but it's huge, is having a place to shower. It's difficult to get a job if you can't get clean, and a shower goes a long way to getting them independent. There's a cycle of homelessness here that typically starts with one event:

1) Loses job
2) Doesn't have money, and loses home
3) Without home, can't get job.
4) Without job, can't get money.
5) Without money, can't get home.

Giving them an address and a shower can break that cycle of homelessness and reintegrate them into society. And, and this is a key point, even if it doesn't and they wind up living in the free apartment for the rest of their days it's still cheaper to the state than the consequences of homelessness.