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MAGAThread XVI: Raising the Barr

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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:07 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:
Bombadil wrote:It's odd how little it's pointed out that the Republicans have a massive advantage when it comes to representation, off 50% of the vote they have 55% representation in Congress, and that's beyond the fact Trump lost by 3M votes yet still won the election.

It's across the board..

Midsized red states have on average a considerably higher percent level of misrepresentation—in these states, while 58 percent of the votes went to Republicans, they took 76 percent of the seats—an 18 percentage point difference that translates into 34 seats. Comparatively, in the midsized blue states, 59 percent of votes were for Democrats, who obtained 72 percent of seats—a 13 percentage point difference that translates into 11 seats. Furthermore, red states make up nine of the 13 states with an excess of 20 points or higher misrepresentation.

Instead of messaging 'oh this is just an attack on immigrants', which I doubt resonates too well with the average American they should be banging on about misrepresentation of the American vote.

The fact that Trump can brazenly tout this as fairer elections when they're generally geared to his side is amazing really.

We bang on about that constantly. It usually ends up with San Lumen and Telconi going back and forth about 'rural' votes and proportional representation and like a hanger on or two raging against first past the post. Literally the last exchange on this was people pointing out that the Citizen question was explicitly designed to undermine the count in favor of Republicans.


I mean, first past the post is terrible and should be ditched so...

But yeah, that's been the trend here on NSG.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
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Ism
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Postby Ism » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:23 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Ism wrote:
Just because it’s legal to misrepresent votes does not mean the votes are not misrepresented.


But they're not misrepresented. The districts are drawn legally therefore the votes accurately represent the breakdowns of those districts.


This argument on legality is a complete red herring. If a party wins win x% of the vote, but gains y% of seats, where x=/=y, you have misrepresentation. The legality of such a system is irrelevant when it comes to determining such a system’s existence.

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Postby The Black Forrest » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:27 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Ism wrote:
Just because it’s legal to misrepresent votes does not mean the votes are not misrepresented.


But they're not misrepresented. The districts are drawn legally therefore the votes accurately represent the breakdowns of those districts.


The practice needs to be outlawed. The voters pick the politicians. The politicians don't get to pick the voters.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:53 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
But they're not misrepresented. The districts are drawn legally therefore the votes accurately represent the breakdowns of those districts.


The practice needs to be outlawed. The voters pick the politicians. The politicians don't get to pick the voters.


But Forest, if you did that you wouldn't get horrific, sexy districts like these ones...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio%27s_ ... l_district

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland% ... l_district

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas%27s ... l_district

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Car ... l_district
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:55 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
But they're not misrepresented. The districts are drawn legally therefore the votes accurately represent the breakdowns of those districts.


The practice needs to be outlawed. The voters pick the politicians. The politicians don't get to pick the voters.


Voters pick the politicians who then draw the districts.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:28 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
The practice needs to be outlawed. The voters pick the politicians. The politicians don't get to pick the voters.


Voters pick the politicians who then draw the districts.

legislative districts ought to be drawn by a independent commission. Its not fair for one party to get a majority of the votes but not the most seats. Speaking of election districts I head the administration wants to use census data to draw districts using registered voters only. Someone correct me if Im wrong but im fairly certain there was a Supreme Court decision about that and they struck such a practice down.

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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:29 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Voters pick the politicians who then draw the districts.

legislative districts ought to be drawn by a independent commission. Its not fair for one party to get a majority of the votes but not the most seats. Speaking of election districts I head the administration wants to use census data to draw districts using registered voters only. Someone correct me if Im wrong but im fairly certain there was a Supreme Court decision about that and they struck such a practice down.


So what happens when an independent commission draws a map that creates an unfair advantage?
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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:41 pm


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Ism
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Postby Ism » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:44 pm

Telconi wrote:
San Lumen wrote:legislative districts ought to be drawn by a independent commission. Its not fair for one party to get a majority of the votes but not the most seats. Speaking of election districts I head the administration wants to use census data to draw districts using registered voters only. Someone correct me if Im wrong but im fairly certain there was a Supreme Court decision about that and they struck such a practice down.


So what happens when an independent commission draws a map that creates an unfair advantage?


People make posts on internet forums about how the system was much better when it was completely controlled by partisan interests.

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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:46 pm

Ism wrote:
Telconi wrote:
So what happens when an independent commission draws a map that creates an unfair advantage?


People make posts on internet forums about how the system was much better when it was completely controlled by partisan interests.


Well see there you go.
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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:08 pm


What are the odds someone told him "Just keep doing what you do"?
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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:34 pm


Weakening the dollar is not bad per se, but currency manipulation is.
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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:41 pm

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:

Weakening the dollar is not bad per se, but currency manipulation is.


We live in a world where Trump calls the shots and you all have to jump.
Last edited by Duhon on Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:46 pm



Print more dollars.

If thats so a good idea however...

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:47 pm

Nakena wrote:


Print more dollars.

If thats so a good idea however...

Weimar Republic intensifies.
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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:49 pm

Kowani wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Print more dollars.

If thats so a good idea however...

Weimar Republic intensifies.


With no Stresemann is sight.

So if Trump is America's Stresenann, who's gonna ape sHitler?!

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Gravlen
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Postby Gravlen » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:09 am

Tarsonis wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
The practice needs to be outlawed. The voters pick the politicians. The politicians don't get to pick the voters.


Voters pick the politicians who then draw the districts.

Why do you think that's acceptable, especially in a two-party system?
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:21 am

Gravlen wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Voters pick the politicians who then draw the districts.

Why do you think that's acceptable, especially in a two-party system?


What makes it especially different under a two party system?
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Postby Vassenor » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:24 am

Telconi wrote:
Gravlen wrote:Why do you think that's acceptable, especially in a two-party system?


What makes it especially different under a two party system?


What makes it acceptable at all?
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:27 am

Vassenor wrote:
Telconi wrote:
What makes it especially different under a two party system?


What makes it acceptable at all?
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:28 am

Vassenor wrote:
Telconi wrote:
What makes it especially different under a two party system?


What makes it acceptable at all?


Lack of a superior alternative.
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PRO:
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ANTI:
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-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:09 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Bombadil wrote:It's odd how little it's pointed out that the Republicans have a massive advantage when it comes to representation, off 50% of the vote they have 55% representation in Congress, and that's beyond the fact Trump lost by 3M votes yet still won the election.

It's across the board..

Midsized red states have on average a considerably higher percent level of misrepresentation—in these states, while 58 percent of the votes went to Republicans, they took 76 percent of the seats—an 18 percentage point difference that translates into 34 seats. Comparatively, in the midsized blue states, 59 percent of votes were for Democrats, who obtained 72 percent of seats—a 13 percentage point difference that translates into 11 seats. Furthermore, red states make up nine of the 13 states with an excess of 20 points or higher misrepresentation.

Instead of messaging 'oh this is just an attack on immigrants', which I doubt resonates too well with the average American they should be banging on about misrepresentation of the American vote.

The fact that Trump can brazenly tout this as fairer elections when they're generally geared to his side is amazing really.



Except the vote isn't misrepresented. Welcome to federalism.


No, it literally is intentionally misrepresented. Or are you really going to try to tell me that North Carolina's map is drawn that way in an attempt to group local communities?
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Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:10 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Hence I italicised a section, in that it's happening at a level that isn't an issue of federalism, state level elections shouldn't have such notable disparities.


Yet as the SCOTUS just ruled, Gerrymandering isn't illegal. And not just that it's fun for the whole family.


This, right here, is you openly admitting that the vote is intentionally being misrepresented.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Salandriagado
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Ex-Nation

Postby Salandriagado » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:11 am

Telconi wrote:
San Lumen wrote:legislative districts ought to be drawn by a independent commission. Its not fair for one party to get a majority of the votes but not the most seats. Speaking of election districts I head the administration wants to use census data to draw districts using registered voters only. Someone correct me if Im wrong but im fairly certain there was a Supreme Court decision about that and they struck such a practice down.


So what happens when an independent commission draws a map that creates an unfair advantage?


You use a mathematical formula that's guaranteed to not do so.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Salandriagado
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Posts: 22831
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Salandriagado » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:13 am

Telconi wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
What makes it acceptable at all?


Lack of a superior alternative.


Shortest Splitline, MMIQ, take your pick.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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