Desmond Napoles or how gender 'liberation' can lead to abuse

[Le Slavador]

I think you lost the thread.

Society on 11 year olds titillating adults:

Boy lewdly dancing for gay men = skeevy
Boy lewdly dancing for straight women = probably ok
Girl lewdly dancing for straight men = skeevy
Girl lewdly dancing for lesbian women = ?

Difference is I think all four are pretty skeevy.

They are all skeevy because the problem is children being paraded around as a commodity before they are old enough to understand and control what is going on.

This.

[Scomagia]

Wow, I never thought I'd see someone use social constructionist horseshit to defend child erotica. This is really no different than you defending a photographer taking pictures of a little girl in her underwear with her legs splayed. Get fucking real.

The interesting thing here is that you see a boy dancing as erotic. Don't you get that you look pretty bad about this?

Hey, if I look bad for opposing the exploitation of children, I wouldn't want to see what it means to look "good".

[USS Monitor]

... Because CSA is usually inferred to be in reference to the Confederate States of America, and isn't usually used as shorthand for child sex abuse?

I stand by my Dixie roots in keeping CSA associated with that thing.

Na it's a super common abbreviation of child sex abuse, especially amongst survivors and people who are passionate about ending it.

Let me know if you need any naval forces to help end the CSA. I will totally sign up for that.

[Nakena]

Let's be real here. He's getting literally paraded out into highly sexualized environments and venues. Make no mistake, thats not a place someone of his age should be.

I do not believe he has been starting or initiated this out of his own volition. Not at this age.

Whatever responsible authorities should step in and have a talk with his parents.

[Beggnig]

...Whatever responsible authorities should step in and have a talk with his parents.

B-but that would be [insert LGBTBBQGBAHRGEGWEFEFFDFDHDETBSR buzzwords here]!

[Cannot think of a name]

Let's be real here. He's getting literally paraded out into highly sexualized environments and venues. Make no mistake, thats not a place someone of his age should be.

Here's the sticking point, because everyone outraged by this accepts this basic premise: That drag shows are inherently 'highly sexualized.' Drag shows are not strip shows. They honestly have more to do with camp than they do with titillation. When you get down to it, this 'highly sexualized' 'not for kids' thing has way, way more to do with puritan reactions to queerness than it does an real sexual exploitation. As long as this perceptual divide exists, this premise of 'highly sexualized' will make anyone who doesn't accept that seem like unhinged monsters. If you see things outside heteronormativity as 'highly sexual' than you can easily mistake the camp of a drag show for a sex show, but that's not what they are.

[Liriena]

No, it's letting children express themselves and have fun apologia. If Desmond genuinely likes doing drag and dancing, without anyone's pressure, manipulation or coercion, I support him. I do not, however, support anyone exploiting him, sexually or otherwise, through his hobbies. If an adult acts inappropriately towards him, that adult won't get any excuses from me.

The lewd dancing is lewd and, yeah, ideally, a child wouldn't do it, but I'd argue that the problem would ultimately lie in whether we see that dancing, however "lewd" it might seem within our worldviews, as an invitation for inappropriate expressions or behavior from adults.

Wow, I never thought I'd see someone use social constructionist horseshit to defend child erotica.

I know you can read, so why are you responding to something I didn't say?

This is really no different than you defending a photographer taking pictures of a little girl in her underwear with her legs splayed. Get fucking real.

I'm not interested in re-litigating Robert Mapplethorpe's work, but knock yourself out.

[Liriena]

The interesting thing here is that you see a boy dancing as erotic. Don't you get that you look pretty bad about this?

A lot of people have looked bad in this thread. Sco isn't one of them.

He sure looks bad to me right now, since he keeps misrepresenting what I said, but go off.

[Gormwood]

I can't believe two people missed the shared acronym within ten minutes. With Fartsniffage I can let it pass, given he's British. You have no excuse, however.

... Because CSA is usually inferred to be in reference to the Confederate States of America, and isn't usually used as shorthand for child sex abuse?

I stand by my Dixie roots in keeping CSA associated with that thing.

No situational awareness either.

Whatever you say, chiefalief.

What makes it a "dredge", by chance?

... Considering the last thread from a year ago on this shit ended in a literal dumpster fire that included several stellar accusations of pedophilia?

Lots of things.

And this reboot was started by a multi-DEAT serial anti-transgender troll.

[Gormwood]

They are all skeevy because the problem is children being paraded around as a commodity before they are old enough to understand and control what is going on.

This.

Child Beauty Pageant Syndrome.

[Liriena]

...Whatever responsible authorities should step in and have a talk with his parents.

B-but that would be [insert LGBTBBQGBAHRGEGWEFEFFDFDHDETBSR buzzwords here]!

You gotta love how the outrage peddlers in this thread are so eager to take their masks off and show off their real motivations for litigating this story yet again.

But yeah, I can agree that the whole "dancing lewdly in a bar for an adult audience" thing shouldn't happen again and his parents need to introspect about it for his sake. I'd like to believe that Desmond didn't understand the optics of what he was doing and one hopes that he can learn from this experience in a healthy fashion.

Now, that being said, does anyone who is not an obvious bad faith actor trying to smear LGBT people wanna touch the now-gone OP's attempt to directly link Desmond's gender non-conformity to the dancing incident to try to argue against "gender liberation"?

[Liriena]

Let's be real here. He's getting literally paraded out into highly sexualized environments and venues. Make no mistake, thats not a place someone of his age should be.

Here's the sticking point, because everyone outraged by this accepts this basic premise: That drag shows are inherently 'highly sexualized.' Drag shows are not strip shows. They honestly have more to do with camp than they do with titillation. When you get down to it, this 'highly sexualized' 'not for kids' thing has way, way more to do with puritan reactions to queerness than it does an real sexual exploitation. As long as this perceptual divide exists, this premise of 'highly sexualized' will make anyone who doesn't accept that seem like unhinged monsters. If you see things outside heteronormativity as 'highly sexual' than you can easily mistake the camp of a drag show for a sex show, but that's not what they are.

^ valuable point here

I don't think it necessarily applies to everyone trying to call me or others "pedophile apologists", but it's food for thought.

[Galloism]

Let's be real here. He's getting literally paraded out into highly sexualized environments and venues. Make no mistake, thats not a place someone of his age should be.

Here's the sticking point, because everyone outraged by this accepts this basic premise: That drag shows are inherently 'highly sexualized.' Drag shows are not strip shows. They honestly have more to do with camp than they do with titillation. When you get down to it, this 'highly sexualized' 'not for kids' thing has way, way more to do with puritan reactions to queerness than it does an real sexual exploitation. As long as this perceptual divide exists, this premise of 'highly sexualized' will make anyone who doesn't accept that seem like unhinged monsters. If you see things outside heteronormativity as 'highly sexual' than you can easily mistake the camp of a drag show for a sex show, but that's not what they are.

I’ve seen drag shows. They’re quite entertaining.

This has less to do with a drag show and more similarity to an erotic dancing club. complete with dollar bills being given to the dancer.

[Liriena]

Here's the sticking point, because everyone outraged by this accepts this basic premise: That drag shows are inherently 'highly sexualized.' Drag shows are not strip shows. They honestly have more to do with camp than they do with titillation. When you get down to it, this 'highly sexualized' 'not for kids' thing has way, way more to do with puritan reactions to queerness than it does an real sexual exploitation. As long as this perceptual divide exists, this premise of 'highly sexualized' will make anyone who doesn't accept that seem like unhinged monsters. If you see things outside heteronormativity as 'highly sexual' than you can easily mistake the camp of a drag show for a sex show, but that's not what they are.

I’ve seen drag shows. They’re quite entertaining.

This has less to do with a drag show and more similarity to an erotic dancing club. complete with dollar bills being given to the dancer.

A distinction which a lot of people in this thread have failed to make or, even worse, have outright denied and lumped both things in the same problematic bag because "TRANS BAD" or something.

[Neutraligon]

I’ve seen drag shows. They’re quite entertaining.

This has less to do with a drag show and more similarity to an erotic dancing club. complete with dollar bills being given to the dancer.

A distinction which a lot of people in this thread have failed to make or, even worse, have outright denied and lumped both things in the same problematic bag because "TRANS BAD" or something.

How unusual is that form of tipping in drag shows? Because in all honesty all I am really seeing is a young kid doing what seems to be a talent show.

[Galloism]

I’ve seen drag shows. They’re quite entertaining.

This has less to do with a drag show and more similarity to an erotic dancing club. complete with dollar bills being given to the dancer.

A distinction which a lot of people in this thread have failed to make or, even worse, have outright denied and lumped both things in the same problematic bag because "TRANS BAD" or something.

Being fair to both sides [enlightened centrism intensifies], there’s quite a few flat assuming the issue is cross dressing, and there’s no issue, when really there’s a major problematic issue here.

Hell, Cannot think of a name can be exhibit A of that.

This isn’t a drag show. A drag show is where you parade a number of people out in custom drag (typically on a runway), and judges or the audience rates them. The winner might get a prize from the event.

This is not that.

[Uiiop]

A distinction which a lot of people in this thread have failed to make or, even worse, have outright denied and lumped both things in the same problematic bag because "TRANS BAD" or something.

How unusual is that form of tipping in drag shows? Because in all honesty all I am really seeing is a young kid doing what seems to be a talent show.

The channel says it's common. But even if they're being honest they're aren't data.

[Galloism]

A distinction which a lot of people in this thread have failed to make or, even worse, have outright denied and lumped both things in the same problematic bag because "TRANS BAD" or something.

How unusual is that form of tipping in drag shows? Because in all honesty all I am really seeing is a young kid doing what seems to be a talent show.

My wife and I watch drag shows on Netflix and YouTube a lot. The outfits are frequently over the top outrageous and funny, which is a good source of mirth.

I’ve never seen people passing dollar bills to the contestants.

[Neutraligon]

A distinction which a lot of people in this thread have failed to make or, even worse, have outright denied and lumped both things in the same problematic bag because "TRANS BAD" or something.

Being fair to both sides [enlightened centrism intensifies], there’s quite a few flat assuming the issue is cross dressing, and there’s no issue, when really there’s a major problematic issue here.

Hell, Cannot think of a name can be exhibit A of that.

This isn’t a drag show. A drag show is where you parade a number of people out in custom drag (typically on a runway), and judges or the audience rates them. The winner might get a prize from the event.

This is not that.

I seem to recall drag shows that had nothing to do with judging and where instead just people performing in drag.

[Liriena]

How unusual is that form of tipping in drag shows? Because in all honesty all I am really seeing is a young kid doing what seems to be a talent show.

My wife and I watch drag shows on Netflix and YouTube a lot. The outfits are frequently over the top outrageous and funny, which is a good source of mirth.

I’ve never seen people passing dollar bills to the contestants.

I've been to one drag show and there was no tipping... but there's a sizeable geographical gap there so...

[Galloism]

Being fair to both sides [enlightened centrism intensifies], there’s quite a few flat assuming the issue is cross dressing, and there’s no issue, when really there’s a major problematic issue here.

Hell, Cannot think of a name can be exhibit A of that.

This isn’t a drag show. A drag show is where you parade a number of people out in custom drag (typically on a runway), and judges or the audience rates them. The winner might get a prize from the event.

This is not that.

I seem to recall drag shows that had nothing to do with judging and where instead just people performing in drag.

We saw a band perform in drag once. Didn’t involve judges. Still didn’t involve passing them dollar bills.

[Uiiop]

How unusual is that form of tipping in drag shows? Because in all honesty all I am really seeing is a young kid doing what seems to be a talent show.

My wife and I watch drag shows on Netflix and YouTube a lot. The outfits are frequently over the top outrageous and funny, which is a good source of mirth.

I’ve never seen people passing dollar bills to the contestants.

TBF those shows and this could be akin to 'Broadway and odd-Broadway"

*Shrugs*

[Neutraligon]

My wife and I watch drag shows on Netflix and YouTube a lot. The outfits are frequently over the top outrageous and funny, which is a good source of mirth.

I’ve never seen people passing dollar bills to the contestants.

I've been to one drag show and there was no tipping... but there's a sizeable geographical gap there so...

Seems to me they could do a lot to make it less visually similar to a strip show, like maybe having a collections basket like what is done for street performers.

[Cannot think of a name]

Here's the sticking point, because everyone outraged by this accepts this basic premise: That drag shows are inherently 'highly sexualized.' Drag shows are not strip shows. They honestly have more to do with camp than they do with titillation. When you get down to it, this 'highly sexualized' 'not for kids' thing has way, way more to do with puritan reactions to queerness than it does an real sexual exploitation. As long as this perceptual divide exists, this premise of 'highly sexualized' will make anyone who doesn't accept that seem like unhinged monsters. If you see things outside heteronormativity as 'highly sexual' than you can easily mistake the camp of a drag show for a sex show, but that's not what they are.

I’ve seen drag shows. They’re quite entertaining.

This has less to do with a drag show and more similarity to an erotic dancing club. complete with dollar bills being given to the dancer.

Does it? Because in the camp tradition of drag, he is wearing the same outfit that Gwen Stefani wears in the performance of "I'm Just a Girl", and how low is the bar for erotic dancing if putting your hands up and bouncing back and forth counts?

Also, a little disingenuous to equate him being handed money to the kind of tipping that's done in a strip show. He's not holding out his waistband for them to stuff dollars in, they're literally handing it to them. He does nothing special for those who give him the dollars except bounce back to the middle of the stage to drop it so he can continue his routine. I play sax on street corners where people give me dollar bills, am I being erotic? It is a saxophone...piano players have a jar on their piano, is that erotic? During performances of Raga music audience members literally get on stage and drop money on the performer. Tipping in this manner is part of drag shows, it is not inherently sexual.

Sorry, I'm still seeing camp. He's not being touched, he's performing an ultimately watered down performance of the person he's imitating.

[Galloism]

I’ve seen drag shows. They’re quite entertaining.

This has less to do with a drag show and more similarity to an erotic dancing club. complete with dollar bills being given to the dancer.

Does it? Because in the camp tradition of drag, he is wearing the same outfit that Gwen Stefani wears in the performance of "I'm Just a Girl", and how low is the bar for erotic dancing if putting your hands up and bouncing back and forth counts?

Also, a little disingenuous to equate him being handed money to the kind of tipping that's done in a strip show. He's not holding out his waistband for them to stuff dollars in, they're literally handing it to them. He does nothing special for those who give him the dollars except bounce back to the middle of the stage to drop it so he can continue his routine. I play sax on street corners where people give me dollar bills, am I being erotic? It is a saxophone...piano players have a jar on their piano, is that erotic? During performances of Raga music audience members literally get on stage and drop money on the performer. Tipping in this manner is part of drag shows, it is not inherently sexual.

Sorry, I'm still seeing camp. He's not being touched, he's performing an ultimately watered down performance of the person he's imitating.

I’m sure stripping off the smock at 0:35 followed by people screaming “woo” has no connotation whatsoever, and the pelvic thrust at 1:23 was purely innocent containing no sexual connotations at all.

I’ve seen a lot of drag shows - never seen tipping at them.

Anyway, if, while playing the sax, you strip off a piece of clothing while they scream in glee, then do a pelvic thrust, all while collecting dollar bills from the crowd, I’d say you’re being sexual.

Regarding placement of dollars, that’s why I said it’s more similar to erotic dancing than drag shows, not the same. If it were the same, he’d be picking them up with his teeth or something.