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ICE putting LGBT and disabled immigrants in solitary...

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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Fri May 24, 2019 1:59 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
The Republic of Fore wrote:Fuck wasting resources on people who aren't our problem.

If they're not our problem, why are we keeping them locked up?


Because first you must experiment on breaking them, of ridding them of their humanity. No humanity, easier to kill than a bug. The Holocaust showed us that.

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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Fri May 24, 2019 2:00 pm

Rea wrote:
Liriena wrote:"I'm only torturing you to protect you from the hypothetical bigotry of your fellow countrymen" is truly a galaxy brain take.


They're sequestering them under less than ideal conditions not torturing them.

I disagree that solitary is a form of torture. Or else every state and federal prison in the US is guilty of it. And there would be massive purges of the corrections system if so.

Solitary confinement ought to get the waterboarding test: Anyone who argues there's nothing wrong with it ought to endure it themselves for quite a while to see if they still think there's nothing wrong with it afterwards.
Last edited by Gormwood on Fri May 24, 2019 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rea
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Postby Rea » Fri May 24, 2019 2:02 pm

Destriustan wrote:Well this is just great. People trying to get into the "Land of the Free," are put into solitary confinement if they're mentally ill or gay. I didn't know that torture was still legal, but I guess it is.


You would be just as outraged if they were just allowed to mix with the general detainee populace and got brutally murdered by their surprisingly intolerant countrymen.

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The Republic of Fore
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Postby The Republic of Fore » Fri May 24, 2019 2:06 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
The Republic of Fore wrote:Fuck wasting resources on people who aren't our problem.

If they're not our problem, why are we keeping them locked up?

To hold them until they can be sent home.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri May 24, 2019 2:07 pm

Rea wrote:
Liriena wrote:"I'm only torturing you to protect you from the hypothetical bigotry of your fellow countrymen" is truly a galaxy brain take.


They're sequestering them under less than ideal conditions not torturing them.

I disagree that solitary is a form of torture. Or else every state and federal prison in the US is guilty of it. And there would be massive purges of the corrections system if so.

All of your prisons are guilty of torture, yes. And there should be massive purges of your prison system. But there won't be, because your government is fine with this form of torture. And some elements of your governments are fine with torture in general.


Rea wrote:
Destriustan wrote:Well this is just great. People trying to get into the "Land of the Free," are put into solitary confinement if they're mentally ill or gay. I didn't know that torture was still legal, but I guess it is.


You would be just as outraged if they were just allowed to mix with the general detainee populace and got brutally murdered by their surprisingly intolerant countrymen.

Probably would be, yeah. Personally I think that if the state is going to be taking people into its custody then in so doing it assumes a duty of care towards them. You put someone behind bars, they are your responsibility. You have to keep them alive, and healthy, both physically and mentally, or you let them fucking go.
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The Republic of Fore
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Postby The Republic of Fore » Fri May 24, 2019 2:08 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
The Republic of Fore wrote:Fuck wasting resources on people who aren't our problem.


They’re people, they still deserve to be treated humanely.

No, they don't deserve anything. Except for a free trip back home as soon as possible.

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The Republic of Fore
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Postby The Republic of Fore » Fri May 24, 2019 2:12 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Rea wrote:
They're sequestering them under less than ideal conditions not torturing them.

I disagree that solitary is a form of torture. Or else every state and federal prison in the US is guilty of it. And there would be massive purges of the corrections system if so.

All of your prisons are guilty of torture, yes. And there should be massive purges of your prison system. But there won't be, because your government is fine with this form of torture. And some elements of your governments are fine with torture in general.


Rea wrote:
You would be just as outraged if they were just allowed to mix with the general detainee populace and got brutally murdered by their surprisingly intolerant countrymen.

Probably would be, yeah. Personally I think that if the state is going to be taking people into its custody then in so doing it assumes a duty of care towards them. You put someone behind bars, they are your responsibility. You have to keep them alive, and healthy, both physically and mentally, or you let them fucking go.

If you want to avoid solitary, you could try that revolutionary thing called not breaking the law. I've heard it works pretty well.

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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Fri May 24, 2019 2:12 pm

The Republic of Fore wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:If they're not our problem, why are we keeping them locked up?

To hold them until they can be sent home.

So... they're our problem.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri May 24, 2019 2:12 pm

The Republic of Fore wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
They’re people, they still deserve to be treated humanely.

No, they don't deserve anything. Except for a free trip back home as soon as possible.

I've never found "deserve" to be a useful word. Who cares what people deserve? The government shouldn't torture people, even if they "deserve" it. The government should treat people humanely even if they don't "deserve" it.
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Fri May 24, 2019 2:13 pm

The Republic of Fore wrote:
Ifreann wrote:All of your prisons are guilty of torture, yes. And there should be massive purges of your prison system. But there won't be, because your government is fine with this form of torture. And some elements of your governments are fine with torture in general.



Probably would be, yeah. Personally I think that if the state is going to be taking people into its custody then in so doing it assumes a duty of care towards them. You put someone behind bars, they are your responsibility. You have to keep them alive, and healthy, both physically and mentally, or you let them fucking go.

If you want to avoid solitary, you could try that revolutionary thing called not breaking the law. I've heard it works pretty well.


Did you even bother to read the article? What did these people do to be put in solitary?
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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Fri May 24, 2019 2:13 pm

The Republic of Fore wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:If they're not our problem, why are we keeping them locked up?

To hold them until they can be sent home.


Or until they break and either dispose themselves or are disposed of.

Like in Australia.

Like, at one time, a letter arrived at Canberra bearing a simple request: kill them all. Put them on a shipping container, then drown them at sea. No fuss, no muss. Mass suicide by cop. To be reduced to such a state, one you'd only see in fiction -- to be taught of as less than piss, to eventually beg for your cruel release from this cruel world --

-- to take the lives of others, to have the power to deny life, ain't that shit just bliss?

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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri May 24, 2019 2:15 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
The Republic of Fore wrote:To hold them until they can be sent home.

So... they're our problem.


Exactly. If you’re going to hold them until you can deport them, they become your problem for that timeframe and should be treated humanely. If there is no solid reason to put them in solitary confinement, don’t place them there. If they’re under your care until they are deported, treat them with some modicum of respect.
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Postby Shrive » Fri May 24, 2019 2:15 pm

In Canada we've recognized solitary is a form of torture. These people have done nothing wrong and are being tortured by the white supremacist ICE.

Abolish ICE
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The Republic of Fore
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Postby The Republic of Fore » Fri May 24, 2019 2:16 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
The Republic of Fore wrote:To hold them until they can be sent home.

So... they're our problem.

Only until we can send them home.

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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Fri May 24, 2019 2:17 pm

Ifreann wrote:
The Republic of Fore wrote:No, they don't deserve anything. Except for a free trip back home as soon as possible.

I've never found "deserve" to be a useful word. Who cares what people deserve? The government shouldn't torture people, even if they "deserve" it. The government should treat people humanely even if they don't "deserve" it.


But "solitary confinement" is a concept that exists, therefore there must be people who must be subject to it, right?

Ain't that right, God?

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Postby Novus America » Fri May 24, 2019 2:18 pm

Ifreann wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Rounding up illegal aliens is not on par with a massive purge of "undesirables" from society. This is not fascism; this is an agency that requires reform to make it more humane.

Rounding up people that you do not desire in your society is not on par with a massive purge of "undesirables" from society.


Novus America wrote:
The Customs Service was never abolished. It was merged with the Border Patrol.

So if you want to “abolish ICE” by merging it with CBP cool, because that is the same thing I am saying.

Or abolish it like the INS by giving all its duties to different agencies.

See memes are not a well thought out policy.

Instead of screaming “abolish ICE”

Who's screaming "abolish ICE"? It certainly isn't me. In fact I made the point that the problem isn't just ICE. Mostly I've been correcting the stupid assumption that without ICE the US would have open borders.
how about an actually thought plan on how to reorganize our Customs and Immigration functions?

What, like "just merge ICE and CBP"? How is that going to address the gross mistreatment of people in ICE custody? What's to say that ICEBP, or whatever, won't also torture people?
And most countries do fine with just one Customs agency.
Why does the US need two?

I didn't say it does. I'm inviting you to explain why they should be merged, since it's already the norm to have different organisations within the same field, like the different branches of the military, or the 18,000 different police agencies.


Many people are screaming “abolish ICE”.
It is a common meme.

But good you agree it is stupid.

And yes waste and redundancy in the government is common.
That is why we should look at reducing the number of redundant organizations and consolidate many.
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The Republic of Fore
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Postby The Republic of Fore » Fri May 24, 2019 2:18 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:So... they're our problem.


Exactly. If you’re going to hold them until you can deport them, they become your problem for that timeframe and should be treated humanely. If there is no solid reason to put them in solitary confinement, don’t place them there. If they’re under your care until they are deported, treat them with some modicum of respect.

No, they should be treated however we choose. If they don't like it, they don't have to come here. There's no reason for us to show respect to people who did nothing to deserve it. Walking across the border doesn't get you special treatment.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri May 24, 2019 2:19 pm

The Republic of Fore wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Exactly. If you’re going to hold them until you can deport them, they become your problem for that timeframe and should be treated humanely. If there is no solid reason to put them in solitary confinement, don’t place them there. If they’re under your care until they are deported, treat them with some modicum of respect.

No, they should be treated however we choose. If they don't like it, they don't have to come here. There's no reason for us to show respect to people who did nothing to deserve it. Walking across the border doesn't get you special treatment.


No one is asking for special treatment. Just a modicum if respect, which we pretty much afford to all people, including criminals.
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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Fri May 24, 2019 2:22 pm

The Republic of Fore wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Exactly. If you’re going to hold them until you can deport them, they become your problem for that timeframe and should be treated humanely. If there is no solid reason to put them in solitary confinement, don’t place them there. If they’re under your care until they are deported, treat them with some modicum of respect.

No, they should be treated however we choose. If they don't like it, they don't have to come here. There's no reason for us to show respect to people who did nothing to deserve it. Walking across the border doesn't get you special treatment.


Indeed. Which is why you say shoot them all. Or torture them till they can't be recognized as human anymore (even as dirty filthy foreigners they still have humanity, and you can't have that, only you are human), then shoot them.

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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Fri May 24, 2019 2:22 pm

The Republic of Fore wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Exactly. If you’re going to hold them until you can deport them, they become your problem for that timeframe and should be treated humanely. If there is no solid reason to put them in solitary confinement, don’t place them there. If they’re under your care until they are deported, treat them with some modicum of respect.

No, they should be treated however we choose. If they don't like it, they don't have to come here. There's no reason for us to show respect to people who did nothing to deserve it. Walking across the border doesn't get you special treatment.


That's horrifying. Are people not worthy of basic dignity simply by virtue of being people? And hell, you're still dodging the main subject, which is that people in these camps are being singled out for being disabled or LGBT. What's your justification for that?
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The Republic of Fore
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Postby The Republic of Fore » Fri May 24, 2019 2:22 pm

Ifreann wrote:
The Republic of Fore wrote:No, they don't deserve anything. Except for a free trip back home as soon as possible.

I've never found "deserve" to be a useful word. Who cares what people deserve? The government shouldn't torture people, even if they "deserve" it. The government should treat people humanely even if they don't "deserve" it.

I care what people deserve. There's no reason for us to waste our time money and resources on people who aren't our citizens. Nobody forced them to come here, so they don't get to make demands. As I've said, if they don't like it they're free to not come here. We will continue on without them.

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The Republic of Fore
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Postby The Republic of Fore » Fri May 24, 2019 2:23 pm

Duhon wrote:
The Republic of Fore wrote:No, they should be treated however we choose. If they don't like it, they don't have to come here. There's no reason for us to show respect to people who did nothing to deserve it. Walking across the border doesn't get you special treatment.


Indeed. Which is why you say shoot them all. Or torture them till they can't be recognized as human anymore (even as dirty filthy foreigners they still have humanity, and you can't have that, only you are human), then shoot them.

Nobody has said any such thing. Stop fearmongering.

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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Fri May 24, 2019 2:23 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
The Republic of Fore wrote:No, they should be treated however we choose. If they don't like it, they don't have to come here. There's no reason for us to show respect to people who did nothing to deserve it. Walking across the border doesn't get you special treatment.


No one is asking for special treatment. Just a modicum if respect, which we pretty much afford to all people, including criminals.


But American criminals are still human. Foreigners, by the very definition of the term, they can't possibly be human. Oh, and American criminals in solitary confinement too. Not human at all.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri May 24, 2019 2:23 pm

Novus America wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Rounding up people that you do not desire in your society is not on par with a massive purge of "undesirables" from society.



Or abolish it like the INS by giving all its duties to different agencies.


Who's screaming "abolish ICE"? It certainly isn't me. In fact I made the point that the problem isn't just ICE. Mostly I've been correcting the stupid assumption that without ICE the US would have open borders.

What, like "just merge ICE and CBP"? How is that going to address the gross mistreatment of people in ICE custody? What's to say that ICEBP, or whatever, won't also torture people?

I didn't say it does. I'm inviting you to explain why they should be merged, since it's already the norm to have different organisations within the same field, like the different branches of the military, or the 18,000 different police agencies.


Many people are screaming “abolish ICE”.
It is a common meme.

Ah, so "screaming" here means "saying something I disagree with".

But good you agree it is stupid.

I don't, ICE should be abolished and everyone associated with it investigated to establish their complicity in acts of torture such as these.

And yes waste and redundancy in the government is common.
That is why we should look at reducing the number of redundant organizations and consolidate many.

But they're not redundant. They do different things. Ports of entry don't have one customs check by CBP and then another by ICE. Other agencies can assume their duties on an interim basis.
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Postby Galloism » Fri May 24, 2019 2:24 pm

The Republic of Fore wrote:
Duhon wrote:
Indeed. Which is why you say shoot them all. Or torture them till they can't be recognized as human anymore (even as dirty filthy foreigners they still have humanity, and you can't have that, only you are human), then shoot them.

Nobody has said any such thing. Stop fearmongering.


The Republic of Fore wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Exactly. If you’re going to hold them until you can deport them, they become your problem for that timeframe and should be treated humanely. If there is no solid reason to put them in solitary confinement, don’t place them there. If they’re under your care until they are deported, treat them with some modicum of respect.

No, they should be treated however we choose. If they don't like it, they don't have to come here. There's no reason for us to show respect to people who did nothing to deserve it. Walking across the border doesn't get you special treatment.


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