NationStates

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:35 pm**

Vassenor wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Yes Trump is ultimately responsible. But he did not create the policies and laws, and did not change them that much.
I guess the entire National Guard now also exists purely to attack Mexicans according to you?

You cannot say Trump created the purpose for a policy that began long before he was in office.
Being responsible for implementing a policy and creating the reason for it are not necessarily the same. The way it is being done now was not started by him, so he did not create the purpose.

Plus if it exists to ethnically cleanse Mexicans it is clearly not doing a very good job at it.

Trump said something bad about Mexicans =/= all government policies exist for that purpose.

I get asked to show my ID all the time.
Requiring ID on public transportation and public roads is fine.
To use them you have to follow certain legal requirements.
You also have a reduced expectation of privacy when doing so.

And I guess you never flew on a plane then.

So clearly that makes it fine for ERO officers to board random busses and go full on "Papers, please".

A public bus? Yes.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:44 pm**

Novus America wrote:
Ifreann wrote:See, now you're just agreeing with me that Trump is responsible but quibbling about how much he changed the policies, as if that matters.

I don't think that that's the current objective. But maybe have a think about how confident you are that if Trump got his way in the morning, he got his wall and his Muslim ban and anything else he could imagine, that he would stop there, and he'd be fine with all the legal immigrants currently in the US.

But the fact that Trump himself clearly thinks of his policies as anti-Mexican is going to inform how the various agencies that he is in charge of as President conduct themselves.

That is some totalitarian dystopia sounding shit. I wasn't even asked for ID when I voted on Friday.

See you are still conflating being responsible for a policy and creating the purpose.

Well, yeah. Trump enacted these policies with goals in mind. I mean, I don't credit the man with much intelligence, but I don't think he's acting randomly.

He does think he upsets some Mexicans.
That does not mean policies that started before him exist for that purpose.

We're talking about Trump's policies. They didn't start before him.

You claim is still garbage. It still comes down to “Trump said something bad about Mexicans ergo government policies exist just to oppress Mexicans”.
Trump has other motivations too you know, and again his motives and the motives of laws from over 100 years ago are not the same.

I'm not saying that Trump's policies exist to oppress Mexicans. I'm saying that even Trump himself thinks that his policies are anti-Mexican. This idea that he's just neutrally enforcing the law is bollocks that even he doesn't believe.

And no, showing ID to use public transportation is not dystopian.

Sure sounds it. When I use public transportation I just have to pay, not identify myself and prove my citizenship.

I guess you never flew a plane either then.

I've had to show my passport when travelling internationally. I've never had to show it to get a bus or a train or a taxi or the Luas.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:44 pm**

Highever wrote:
Israeli Commonwealth wrote:Ok so we agree then.

Not on the putting people on a line and slaughtering them part, nor the naive sentiment that ICE and other border agencies have done absolutely nothing wrong, no.

Yes, there is a middle ground and between “Abolish ICE” and “ICE did nothing wrong”.
Clearly ICE ERO’s Office of Detention Oversight has had some serious failures and needs reform.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:47 pm**

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
So clearly that makes it fine for ERO officers to board random busses and go full on "Papers, please".

A public bus? Yes.

I'll reiterate, I didn't even have to show my ID when I voted on Friday. And it's the law here that I could have been required to do so. The idea of having to prove your citizenship just to get a bus is mad to me.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:48 pm**

Ifreann wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:A public bus? Yes.

I'll reiterate, I didn't even have to show my ID when I voted on Friday. And it's the law here that I could have been required to do so. The idea of having to prove your citizenship just to get a bus is mad to me.

We're just not used to American levels of freedom.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:49 pm**

Ifreann wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:A public bus? Yes.

I'll reiterate, I didn't even have to show my ID when I voted on Friday. And it's the law here that I could have been required to do so. The idea of having to prove your citizenship just to get a bus is mad to me.

I don't think it should be a requirement just to get on the bus. You're misunderstanding me. I just don't see anything wrong with ICE officers performing random citizenship checks on public buses.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:50 pm**

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
So clearly that makes it fine for ERO officers to board random busses and go full on "Papers, please".

A public bus? Yes.

Talk about sleepwalking into authoritarianism.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:51 pm**

Vassenor wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:A public bus? Yes.

Talk about sleepwalking into authoritarianism.

Ah yes, truly there is no greater authoritarianism than asking people on public buses if they're citizens or not.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:51 pm**

Ifreann wrote:
Novus America wrote:
See you are still conflating being responsible for a policy and creating the purpose.

Well, yeah. Trump enacted these policies with goals in mind. I mean, I don't credit the man with much intelligence, but I don't think he's acting randomly.
He does think he upsets some Mexicans.
That does not mean policies that started before him exist for that purpose.

We're talking about Trump's policies. They didn't start before him.

You claim is still garbage. It still comes down to “Trump said something bad about Mexicans ergo government policies exist just to oppress Mexicans”.
Trump has other motivations too you know, and again his motives and the motives of laws from over 100 years ago are not the same.

I'm not saying that Trump's policies exist to oppress Mexicans. I'm saying that even Trump himself thinks that his policies are anti-Mexican. This idea that he's just neutrally enforcing the law is bollocks that even he doesn't believe.

And no, showing ID to use public transportation is not dystopian.

Sure sounds it. When I use public transportation I just have to pay, not identify myself and prove my citizenship.
I guess you never flew a plane either then.

I've had to show my passport when travelling internationally. I've never had to show it to get a bus or a train or a taxi or the Luas.

Not all government policies are Trump policies.
Again these started before him, and he did not change them much.
Detention of illegal immigrants is not Trump’s policy.
Is enforcement perfectly neutral? Of course not.
Nothing truly is.
That does not mean illegal immigration detention is concentration camps for Mexicans.

Yeah, well maybe you do not.
Everything different from Ireland is not dystopian.
Even on domestic flights you have to show ID though, I guarantee that.

And yes we might have stricter transportation security laws.
That does not equal dystopian. Anyways if the US is dystopian why to so many people want to come here and you want even more to do so?

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:54 pm**

Ifreann wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:A public bus? Yes.

I'll reiterate, I didn't even have to show my ID when I voted on Friday. And it's the law here that I could have been required to do so. The idea of having to prove your citizenship just to get a bus is mad to me.

And I had to show mine when I voted.
The US is not Ireland.

You might think transportation security is mad, we do not.
I disagree that transportation security is mad. You have a reduced expectation of privacy in public transportation and on public roads.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:54 pm**

Like seriously. Even with how authoritarian people claim the UK is (#gotalicenseforthathashtag) the police can't ask you to prove your citizenship at random like that.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:55 pm**

Vassenor wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:A public bus? Yes.

Talk about sleepwalking into authoritarianism.

No. Having to show identification when using public transportation on public roads is not particularly authoritarian.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:56 pm**

Vassenor wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:A public bus? Yes.

Talk about sleepwalking into authoritarianism.

You and Iferann have the lowest bar for the most boring dystopian future I've ever seen.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:56 pm**

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Talk about sleepwalking into authoritarianism.

Ah yes, truly there is no greater authoritarianism than asking people on public buses if they're citizens or not.

I mean, constantly having to prove your citizenship or else get arrested is pretty authoritarian yeah. What's next, ID checks at the post office? The supermarket? :eyebrow:

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:56 pm**

Vassenor wrote:Like seriously. Even with how authoritarian people claim the UK is (#gotalicenseforthathashtag) the police can't ask you to prove your citizenship at random like that.

ICE officers are different from police officers, m8.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:57 pm**

Twilight Imperium wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Ah yes, truly there is no greater authoritarianism than asking people on public buses if they're citizens or not.

I mean, constantly having to prove your citizenship or else get arrested is pretty authoritarian yeah. What's next, ID checks at the post office? The supermarket?

Random checks are constant? Now that's funny.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:58 pm**

Luna Amore wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Talk about sleepwalking into authoritarianism.

You and Iferann have the lowest bar for the most boring dystopian future I've ever seen.

"Evening, sir. Are you an American citizen?"

MY GOD, THE AUTHORITARIANISM! WE'RE ONLY ONE STEP AWAY FROM 1984!

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 1:59 pm**

Twilight Imperium wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Ah yes, truly there is no greater authoritarianism than asking people on public buses if they're citizens or not.

I mean, constantly having to prove your citizenship or else get arrested is pretty authoritarian yeah. What's next, ID checks at the post office? The supermarket?

Most government buildings do have ID checks. And you sometimes do have to show ID at the Post Office.

But public transportation is different than a supermarket.
You have a reduced expectation of privacy using public transportation on public roads.

Many have cameras too. Though so do supermarkets.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 2:00 pm**

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Talk about sleepwalking into authoritarianism.

Ah yes, truly there is no greater authoritarianism than asking people on public buses if they're citizens or not.

So you don't believe in innocent until proven guilty then?

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 2:00 pm**

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Twilight Imperium wrote:
I mean, constantly having to prove your citizenship or else get arrested is pretty authoritarian yeah. What's next, ID checks at the post office? The supermarket?

Random checks are constant? Now that's funny.

Random checks are actually worse - if it's just every time you get on the bus you can plan for that.

E: Actually, why do we care if people on a bus are citizens in the first place? Are French people not allowed to buy bus tickets and ride just like everyone else?

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 2:02 pm**

Vassenor wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Ah yes, truly there is no greater authoritarianism than asking people on public buses if they're citizens or not.

So you don't believe in innocent until proven guilty then?

Immigration and deportation are, as you leftists are so fond of reminding us all, civil matters.

Sorry, m8, but that innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply here. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 2:03 pm**

Vassenor wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Ah yes, truly there is no greater authoritarianism than asking people on public buses if they're citizens or not.

So you don't believe in innocent until proven guilty then?

There's no presumed guilt in this example and that's not what that means otherwise police could never question or arrest anyone.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 2:03 pm**

Twilight Imperium wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Random checks are constant? Now that's funny.

Random checks are actually worse - if it's just every time you get on the bus you can plan for that.

I know. I mean, then the illegals might have an opportunity to avoid it.

We can't have that.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 2:03 pm**

Vassenor wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Ah yes, truly there is no greater authoritarianism than asking people on public buses if they're citizens or not.

So you don't believe in innocent until proven guilty then?

That is a different matter.
Innocent until proven guilty does not mean you cannot be asked to show ID on public transportation.

Innocent until proven guilty does not mean you cannot be arrested either.

Posted: **Sun May 26, 2019 2:06 pm**

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Twilight Imperium wrote:
Random checks are actually worse - if it's just every time you get on the bus you can plan for that.

I know. I mean, then the illegals might have an opportunity to avoid it.

We can't have that.

So hang on a second - the conservative, small-government-loving right side people are the ones advocating for government toadies to come stick their noses into people's business, and the left-wing regulation-happy hippies are the ones saying "stay outta my business gummit"?

Did I get teleported to the mirror universe or something?

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