NationStates

Nationalist Teksas wrote:

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Rounding up illegal aliens is not on par with a massive purge of "undesirables" from society. This is not fascism; this is an agency that requires reform to make it more humane.

I will say, it is ironic that the organization responsible for vetting who gets into the country is in need of some serious vetting.

Seriously reminds me of that old joke about "We have investigated ourselves and found we're not guilty". The ICE needs serious reforms at best, but the US is also pretty trigger-happy when it comes to being held accountable.

Another Fake News article that needs critiquing. ICE is not a fascist organization. Immigrants, no matter their sexuality or disability, are allowed to be detained and deported.

Zordennox wrote:Another Fake News article that needs critiquing. ICE is not a fascist organization. Immigrants, no matter their sexuality or disability, are allowed to be detained and deported.

Yes, but not in solitary confinement.

Ostroeuropa wrote:

Zordennox wrote:Another Fake News article that needs critiquing. ICE is not a fascist organization. Immigrants, no matter their sexuality or disability, are allowed to be detained and deported.

Yes, but not in solitary confinement.

If they are criminals, and depending on the crime, they can be sent to solitary confinement.

Zordennox wrote:

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Yes, but not in solitary confinement.

If they are criminals, and depending on the crime, they can be sent to solitary confinement.

Denying people social contact is the same as denying them food and water. It destroys their mind and sense of reality over time in disturbing and drastic ways. This is made even worse if there is simply four brick walls and nothing to do. There's an abundance of evidence on the topic, and testimonials that describe the effect of the treatment that seem to imply that we require people and objects around us to maintain a coherent sense of self.

I.E, if you throw someone in a room long enough with no objects or people to interact with, their sense of identity erodes until they can no longer tell the difference between them and not them. That's fucked. That's supremely fucked.

The consensus is in on this topic psychologically, it is a form of torture.

Ostroeuropa wrote:Solitary confinement is torture and is not an acceptable practice under any circumstances. The US Supreme court has already ruled that for torture, universal jurisdiction applies. (They did so in response to south American torturers asking what jurisdiction the US had to try and convict them for torturing south americans in south America.) These workers can theoretically find themselves arrested by any US authority including state authorities, even if the crime did not occur in their state.

ICE workers may want to avoid blue states.

I wonder for out of genuine fear of their lives?

Well this is just great. People trying to get into the "Land of the Free," are put into solitary confinement if they're mentally ill or gay. I didn't know that torture was still legal, but I guess it is.

https://youtu.be/k-ZfPYRkEGk

Good video on the topic of solitary confinement. 20 mins.


Worth noting that religious zealots punishing criminals originally put a bible in there with the person on the basis of thinking if you put them in solitary with nothing but a bible, they'll read it and convert and be better people.

But they soon realized that people just kind of melt mentally in solitary and you can't even convert them to your religion, so they stopped, because they realized that solitary serves no purpose other than to destroy a human beings mind.

When even those kind of people say "This is fucked, don't do this, it serves no purpose", you should believe them.

Ostroeuropa wrote:

Zordennox wrote:
If they are criminals, and depending on the crime, they can be sent to solitary confinement.

Denying people social contact is the same as denying them food and water. It destroys their mind and sense of reality over time in disturbing and drastic ways. This is made even worse if there is simply four brick walls and nothing to do. There's an abundance of evidence on the topic, and testimonials that describe the effect of the treatment that seem to imply that we require people and objects around us to maintain a coherent sense of self.

I.E, if you throw someone in a room long enough with no objects or people to interact with, their sense of identity erodes until they can no longer tell the difference between them and not them. That's fucked. That's supremely fucked.

The consensus is in on this topic psychologically, it is a form of torture.

I don't disagree with you on the premise that solitary confinement is a form of torture, I'm saying that it is legal to send criminal aliens to solitary confinement. I think deportation is a better method, to be honest.

Zordennox wrote:

Ostroeuropa wrote:

Denying people social contact is the same as denying them food and water. It destroys their mind and sense of reality over time in disturbing and drastic ways. This is made even worse if there is simply four brick walls and nothing to do. There's an abundance of evidence on the topic, and testimonials that describe the effect of the treatment that seem to imply that we require people and objects around us to maintain a coherent sense of self.

I.E, if you throw someone in a room long enough with no objects or people to interact with, their sense of identity erodes until they can no longer tell the difference between them and not them. That's fucked. That's supremely fucked.

The consensus is in on this topic psychologically, it is a form of torture.

I don't disagree with you on the premise that solitary confinement is a form of torture, I'm saying that it is legal to send criminal aliens to solitary confinement. I think deportation is a better method, to be honest.

I agree it may be seen as legal currently, but think it shouldn't be. I agree illegal immigrants should be deported, ideally at the first opportunity.

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:

Necroghastia wrote:Abuse by the state is a little light of a term, though. This is more like rounding up the undesirables and putting them in torture camps.

Rounding up illegal aliens is not on par with a massive purge of "undesirables" from society. This is not fascism; this is an agency that requires reform to make it more humane.

Rounding up people that you do not desire in your society is not on par with a massive purge of "undesirables" from society.

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Novus America wrote:

Ifreann wrote:The same way that abolishing the Customs Service and the INS eliminated those functions. America currently has no immigration or customs services, clearly.

And both the army and the navy do war.

The Customs Service was never abolished. It was merged with the Border Patrol.

So if you want to “abolish ICE” by merging it with CBP cool, because that is the same thing I am saying.

Or abolish it like the INS by giving all its duties to different agencies.

See memes are not a well thought out policy.

Instead of screaming “abolish ICE”

Who's screaming "abolish ICE"? It certainly isn't me. In fact I made the point that the problem isn't just ICE. Mostly I've been correcting the stupid assumption that without ICE the US would have open borders.

how about an actually thought plan on how to reorganize our Customs and Immigration functions?

What, like "just merge ICE and CBP"? How is that going to address the gross mistreatment of people in ICE custody? What's to say that ICEBP, or whatever, won't also torture people?

And most countries do fine with just one Customs agency.
Why does the US need two?

I didn't say it does. I'm inviting you to explain why they should be merged, since it's already the norm to have different organisations within the same field, like the different branches of the military, or the 18,000 different police agencies.

Thousands of US citizens are already being subjected to solitary confinement as we speak. In a world this brutal and sadistic for no reason, why be merciful to the outsider, especially when this decade has shown us that all foreigners are budding terrorists, they drain our resources, they destroy our cultures, and demand the impossible, like human rights and dignity and changed attitudes?

Easy solution, don't try to cross the border. We don't owe them anything.

Ostroeuropa wrote:https://youtu.be/k-ZfPYRkEGk

Good video on the topic of solitary confinement. 20 mins.


Worth noting that religious zealots punishing criminals originally put a bible in there with the person on the basis of thinking if you put them in solitary with nothing but a bible, they'll read it and convert and be better people.

But they soon realized that people just kind of melt mentally in solitary and you can't even convert them to your religion, so they stopped, because they realized that solitary serves no purpose other than to destroy a human beings mind.

When even those kind of people say "This is fucked, don't do this, it serves no purpose", you should believe them.

What if the utter destruction of the individual is the purpose? First deprive them of human contact, then deprive them of audiovisual stimulation. Then, when the budding terrorist has wilted under all that inhumanity and become catatonic, the world steps in, sees nothing human in so reduced a visage, and shoots him dead?

It is inefficient, but then if people cared about efficiency, there would be mines and gun turrets everywhere, shooting those dirty filthy foreigners where they stood.

The Republic of Fore wrote:Easy solution, don't try to cross the border. We don't owe them anything.

That's the rub, isn't it? If they come there, they die. If they stay, they die. Out of sight, out of mind! Die, die, die! Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!

The Republic of Fore wrote:Easy solution, don't try to cross the border. We don't owe them anything.

Yeah! Fuck basic human decency!

Necroghastia wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:Easy solution, don't try to cross the border. We don't owe them anything.

Yeah! Fuck basic human decency!

But they are terrorists in training, you know! They bring in crime and drugs and diseases! They steal your jobs and mooch off welfare! They fuck your demographics and destroy your culture! Why should such beasfs be treated as human? You don't owe them anything, even their humanity, even their lives.

Nothing to do with immigration but everything to do with solitary confinement.

A federal prisoner believed to have spent the longest time in solitary confinement has died

Liriena wrote:

Rea wrote:LGBT people are often fleeing hostile settings, and countries which are far less tolerant of their kind than the US. To have them mix with the general populace from said hostile setting would be exposing them to a far greater risk of harm. Would you really put a transgender woman in the same general populace as a bunch of young men fresh off the streets of Colombia and Afghanistan?

"I'm only torturing you to protect you from the hypothetical bigotry of your fellow countrymen" is truly a galaxy brain take.

They're sequestering them under less than ideal conditions not torturing them.

I disagree that solitary is a form of torture. Or else every state and federal prison in the US is guilty of it. And there would be massive purges of the corrections system if so.

Duhon wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:Easy solution, don't try to cross the border. We don't owe them anything.

That's the rub, isn't it? If they come there, they die. If they stay, they die. Out of sight, out of mind! Die, die, die! Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Not our problem.

Border regulation is good, borders shouldn't go unchecked imo. But this is just on another level. This isn't regulation, it's torture

Necroghastia wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:Easy solution, don't try to cross the border. We don't owe them anything.

Yeah! Fuck basic human decency!

Fuck wasting resources on people who aren't our problem.

Highever wrote:

Rea wrote:LGBT people are often fleeing hostile settings, and countries which are far less tolerant of their kind than the US. To have them mix with the general populace from said hostile setting would be exposing them to a far greater risk of harm. Would you really put a transgender woman in the same general populace as a bunch of young men fresh off the streets of Colombia and Afghanistan?

So....you're trying to say this is somehow good and in the interest of their wellbeing and security?

Sequestering them from the general populace is good and of that was the intention, it was a wise course of action. Maybe it was carried out under less than ideal conditions.

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Necroghastia wrote:Yeah! Fuck basic human decency!

Fuck wasting resources on people who aren't our problem.

If they're not our problem, why are we keeping them locked up?

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Necroghastia wrote:Yeah! Fuck basic human decency!

Fuck wasting resources on people who aren't our problem.

They’re people, they still deserve to be treated humanely.