NationStates

Torrocca wrote:

Novus America wrote:
Children have died due to negligence in public schools too and hospitals, that does not mean public schools and hospitals do more bad than good.

But actually the children you are probably thinking of were in CBP custody.

Yes the outsourced detention centers are a big issue. We should resolve that.
But ICE still does a lot of good like fighting arms trafficking, human trafficking, etc.

There's also the acts of child molestation, general abuse of both children and other detained people, the abuse of the LGBTQ+ and disabled as we're seeing in this thread, etc.

You are avoiding the issue though. Those things happen in schools and hospitals too. Should schools and hospitals be disbanded?

Again I have acknowledged the detention program is deeply flawed and desperately needs an overhaul. But I am just pointing out that does not equal all ICE bad.

Novus America wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
There's also the acts of child molestation, general abuse of both children and other detained people, the abuse of the LGBTQ+ and disabled as we're seeing in this thread, etc.

You are avoiding the issue though. Those things happen in schools and hospitals too. Should schools and hospitals be disbanded?

Those things still provide more inherent good to society than bad. They should be reformed.

ICE, however, is only "good" for preventing human beings from enjoying life in another part of the world because of an artificial line in the sand.

There are 18.600 US border patrol agents patrolling the US-Mexican border. When it comes to ICE agents, we need to separate them by there department. Those involved in immigration enforcement should really be called ERO agents (Enforcement and Removal Operations (ERO). There were are about 7900 ERO agents in 2017. Supposedly, the US Pres. wanted to add 10.000. So if we add both US border patrol agents and ERO agents, today at the very least there should be around 25.000 US agents on the US border. All these agents catching people has resulted in the US immigration system having a 820,000 case backlog. The problem is the US only has 394 immigration judges. They really need to hire much more in order to process illegals quickly. But remember, housing and supplying those people means someone is making money. Also, dragging this issue means politicians can use the illegal problem to get political points.

Torrocca wrote:

Novus America wrote:
You are avoiding the issue though. Those things happen in schools and hospitals too. Should schools and hospitals be disbanded?

Those things still provide more inherent good to society than bad. They should be reformed.

ICE, however, is only "good" for preventing human beings from enjoying life in another part of the world because of an artificial line in the sand.

ICE does not just enforce immigration laws...

And preventing our infrastructure and housing from being overwhelmed from an uncontrolled population explosion is valid, but again just one part of what ICE does.

Rio Cana wrote:There are 18.600 US border patrol agents patrolling the US-Mexican border. When it comes to ICE agents, we need to separate them by there department. Those involved in immigration enforcement should really be called ERO agents (Enforcement and Removal Operations (ERO). There were are about 7900 ERO agents in 2017. Supposedly, the US Pres. wanted to add 10.000. So if we add both US border patrol agents and ERO agents, today at the very least there should be around 25.000 US agents on the US border. All these agents catching people has resulted in the US immigration system having a 820,000 case backlog. The problem is the US only has 394 immigration judges. They really need to hire much more in order to process illegals quickly. But remember, housing and supplying those people means someone is making money. Also, dragging this issue means politicians can use the illegal problem to get political points.

ICE and Border Patrol are separate agencies.

Novus America wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
Those things still provide more inherent good to society than bad. They should be reformed.

ICE, however, is only "good" for preventing human beings from enjoying life in another part of the world because of an artificial line in the sand.

ICE does not just enforce immigration laws...

And preventing our infrastructure and housing from being overwhelmed from an uncontrolled population explosion is valid, but again just one part of what ICE does.

“Housing.” When something is done for the homeless people that are already in the country, that’ll be a valid argument.

Novus America wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
Those things still provide more inherent good to society than bad. They should be reformed.

ICE, however, is only "good" for preventing human beings from enjoying life in another part of the world because of an artificial line in the sand.

ICE does not just enforce immigration laws...

ICE is still shitty.

And preventing our infrastructure and housing from being overwhelmed from an uncontrolled population explosion is valid, but again just one part of what ICE does.

We have almost 19,000,000 vacant houses in the USA (and there's already some 12,000,000 "illegal" immigrants living in the USA (not in those vacant houses, of course)), so I seriously doubt a few thousand immigrants crossing the border yearly would be a problem, especially when border-crossings have declined.

Kowani wrote:

Novus America wrote:
ICE does not just enforce immigration laws...

And preventing our infrastructure and housing from being overwhelmed from an uncontrolled population explosion is valid, but again just one part of what ICE does.

“Housing.” When something is done for the homeless people that are already in the country, that’ll be a valid argument.

Not really. Obviously uncontrolled Immigration would make our homelessness problem much worse.

That is like saying “since this bridge is already bad, we should increase traffic on it to more dangerous volumes until we fix it”.

Novus America wrote:

Kowani wrote:“Housing.” When something is done for the homeless people that are already in the country, that’ll be a valid argument.

Not really. Obviously uncontrolled Immigration would make our homelessness problem much worse.

Not really. At worst, the new immigrants would be living in any of the 19,000,000 vacant houses in America.

Novus America wrote:

Kowani wrote:“Housing.” When something is done for the homeless people that are already in the country, that’ll be a valid argument.

Not really. Obviously uncontrolled Immigration would make our homelessness problem much worse.

That is like saying “since this bridge is already bad, we should increase traffic on it to more dangerous volumes until we fix it”.

If anyone was trying to fix the bridge, you might have a point. Except they’re not, they’re shrieking about it to deflect attention.

Torrocca wrote:

Novus America wrote:
ICE does not just enforce immigration laws...

ICE is still shitty.

And preventing our infrastructure and housing from being overwhelmed from an uncontrolled population explosion is valid, but again just one part of what ICE does.

We have almost 19,000,000 vacant houses in the USA (and there's already some 12,000,000 "illegal" immigrants living in the USA (not in those vacant houses, of course)), so I seriously doubt a few thousand immigrants crossing the border yearly would be a problem, especially when border-crossings have declined.

“ICE is still shitty”. Very convincing argument.
Is preventing arms trafficking and human trafficking shitty?

And you are wrong. Border crossings are back up.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.co ... tion-trump

But anyways 158 million adults (remember many would be bringing children) want to come to the US.

And while most, not all have good intentions.

So that is what we would be facing with no border enforcement.
We can certainly accommodate a certain number of migrants.
But that many (or eve just a fraction) would completely overwhelm our housing, schools, hospitals, infrastructure, water, sewers, power grid, food production etc.

Plus only a fraction of those 19 million vacant houses are currently habitable and most in places people do not want to move to, and thus will not move too.

You did hear about the plan to increase economic development in Southern Mexico and the three Northern Central American nations in order to curb the flow of illegals. It will just require the well off nations of the world including the US to help when it comes to the money part. Program is expected to cost $10 Billion a year.

Read - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1SS298

Someone on a youtube video was once talking about that much of Central Americas economic problems could be solved if they just united economically. Instead, most of the nations try to go it by themselves. Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and even Mexico are thinking of building a dry canal which would cross from the Caribbean to the Pacific. The problem is that if all these nations did this, which would cost billions in construction, then the benefits from this would be diluted.

Torrocca wrote:

Novus America wrote:
Not really. Obviously uncontrolled Immigration would make our homelessness problem much worse.

Not really. At worst, the new immigrants would be living in any of the 19,000,000 vacant houses in America.

No, because there would be far more than 19 million, plus those houses are often not habitable not in in demand areas with jobs available. They are vacant for a reason.

Immigrants are not exactly pouring into Detroit despite the large number of vacant houses.

And again housing is just one aspect. What about schools, hospitals, water, sewage, roads, trains, electricity, fuel, food, etc?

Kowani wrote:

Novus America wrote:
Not really. Obviously uncontrolled Immigration would make our homelessness problem much worse.

That is like saying “since this bridge is already bad, we should increase traffic on it to more dangerous volumes until we fix it”.

If anyone was trying to fix the bridge, you might have a point. Except they’re not, they’re shrieking about it to deflect attention.

The logical thing is still to decrease traffic on the bridge or close it entirely if you have no intent to fix it. Not try to make it collapse faster.

Novus America wrote:

Ifreann wrote:Of course that's what they're for. It's part of Trump's attempts to create a crisis at the southern border and get his precious wall.


I hardly thought I needed to specify that I was talking about illegal immigrants, since we're talking about immigration detention facilities.


An immigration status hearing, not a trial. They won't have a lawyer unless they can somehow arrange one themselves. Children have been put through those hearings alone, with no adult guardian or lawyer.

You're the one bringing up the average length of detention. If you think that's relevant information then you can look up something more recent than seven years old.


They're being detained indefinitely without charges or a trial.

If it is only...

I didn't say only.

Yes, illegal immigrants. Putting someone in detention for something illegal is not a concentration camp.

It is when you're not planning to give them a trial or even charge them.

Due to the complexity of immigration law formal criminal charges and a full trial are not always done, but all have been accused of committing and illegal act (being detained for acts is not a concentration camp) and all get a hearing.

It's much easier to abuse people when you don't give them any of the rights and protections associated with a criminal trial, yes.

And that is not how sources work. If someone provides a valid source, and you have no source, you still lose. You could you know actually source your arguments.

I'm not making any claim about the average length of detention. You are. I've pointed out that the source you provided refers to 2012. No part of this means that I must now go off and find evidence to support your claims. I don't "lose" because I'm not doing your homework for you.

But you do not. It is not my job to find everything possible on the issue only to know you will reject it all anyways and not bother to do your own research.

I don't care what the average length of detention is, so feel free to just stop bringing it up and I'll stop pointing out that your numbers are from 2012.

Ifreann wrote:

Novus America wrote:
If it is only...

I didn't say only.

Yes, illegal immigrants. Putting someone in detention for something illegal is not a concentration camp.

It is when you're not planning to give them a trial or even charge them.

Due to the complexity of immigration law formal criminal charges and a full trial are not always done, but all have been accused of committing and illegal act (being detained for acts is not a concentration camp) and all get a hearing.

It's much easier to abuse people when you don't give them any of the rights and protections associated with a criminal trial, yes.

And that is not how sources work. If someone provides a valid source, and you have no source, you still lose. You could you know actually source your arguments.

I'm not making any claim about the average length of detention. You are. I've pointed out that the source you provided refers to 2012. No part of this means that I must now go off and find evidence to support your claims. I don't "lose" because I'm not doing your homework for you.

But you do not. It is not my job to find everything possible on the issue only to know you will reject it all anyways and not bother to do your own research.

I don't care what the average length of detention is, so feel free to just stop bringing it up and I'll stop pointing out that your numbers are from 2012.

So they are not “camps” for Hispanic immigrants.
They are detention facilities for a small percentage of illegal immigrants of various origins.

And they are being charged, though not always with a formal criminal charge (though often they actually are charged) with migrating without authorization and given a hearing.

They are not be held on basis of belong to a certain ethnic group, but because they immigrated without authorization. Most are held a fairly short time.
The get a hearing. Oh and they am leave anytime the wish if the want to return to their home countries too BTW.

Yes we could and should definitely improve the process. Make visa overstays a crime as well, so we can charge them formally with a crime too. Fine with me.

Torrocca wrote:

Novus America wrote:
Children have died due to negligence in public schools too and hospitals, that does not mean public schools and hospitals do more bad than good.

But actually the children you are probably thinking of were in CBP custody.

Yes the outsourced detention centers are a big issue. We should resolve that.
But ICE still does a lot of good like fighting arms trafficking, human trafficking, etc.

There's also the acts of child molestation, general abuse of both children and other detained people, the abuse of the LGBTQ+ and disabled as we're seeing in this thread, etc.

First thing, please cite a source. Second thing, what counts as abuse? They are arrested! They are not going to get world class food, perfect housing, a T.V, and an IPhone X, sorry! And abuse of LGBTTQQIIAA+++++ and disabled I doubt but I shall humor you and say it happened due to this whole thread being about it. Third thing, it is rare for that to happen as much as it is rare for cops to shoot black people without reason. ICE and border patrol do much good for the country and hating them is like hating the armed forces. Shame on all who think that. And go to hell.

Torrocca wrote:

Novus America wrote:
ICE does not just enforce immigration laws...

ICE is still shitty.

And preventing our infrastructure and housing from being overwhelmed from an uncontrolled population explosion is valid, but again just one part of what ICE does.

We have almost 19,000,000 vacant houses in the USA (and there's already some 12,000,000 "illegal" immigrants living in the USA (not in those vacant houses, of course)), so I seriously doubt a few thousand immigrants crossing the border yearly would be a problem, especially when border-crossings have declined.

What is your occupation ma'am?

Rio Cana wrote:You did hear about the plan to increase economic development in Southern Mexico and the three Northern Central American nations in order to curb the flow of illegals. It will just require the well off nations of the world including the US to help when it comes to the money part. Program is expected to cost $10 Billion a year.

Read - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1SS298

Someone on a youtube video was once talking about that much of Central Americas economic problems could be solved if they just united economically. Instead, most of the nations try to go it by themselves. Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and even Mexico are thinking of building a dry canal which would cross from the Caribbean to the Pacific. The problem is that if all these nations did this, which would cost billions in construction, then the benefits from this would be diluted.

Honestly this is something we should be doing not building a fucking wall.

Also we should take AMLO up on his suggestion to decriminalize/legalize all drugs to end the drug war. Unfortunately the prison industry is too strong

Israeli Commonwealth wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
There's also the acts of child molestation, general abuse of both children and other detained people, the abuse of the LGBTQ+ and disabled as we're seeing in this thread, etc.

First thing, please cite a source. Second thing, what counts as abuse? They are arrested! They are not going to get world class food, perfect housing, a T.V, and an IPhone X, sorry!

They are still human beings and as such should be treated with respect and not beaten or sexually assaulted because they are a prisoner

Third thing, it is rare for that to happen as much as it is rare for cops to shoot black people without reason.

No it’s not. Prisons are rife with abuse, several guards regularly abuse their power.

ICE and border patrol do much good for the country

Still doesn’t mean they can do whatever the fuck they want and they definitely shouldn’t be two different agencies

and hating them is like hating the armed forces. Shame on all who think that.

Ya no.

And go to hell.

You’re not going to last here long

Thermodolia wrote:

Israeli Commonwealth wrote:First thing, please cite a source. Second thing, what counts as abuse? They are arrested! They are not going to get world class food, perfect housing, a T.V, and an IPhone X, sorry!

They are still human beings and as such should be treated with respect and not beaten or sexually assaulted because they are a prisoner

Third thing, it is rare for that to happen as much as it is rare for cops to shoot black people without reason.

No it’s not. Prisons are rife with abuse, several guards regularly abuse their power.

ICE and border patrol do much good for the country

Still doesn’t mean they can do whatever the fuck they want and they definitely shouldn’t be two different agencies

and hating them is like hating the armed forces. Shame on all who think that.

Ya no.

And go to hell.

You’re not going to last here long

Is the coast guard part of the armed forces? Also cite a link that they do that

Thermodolia wrote:

Rio Cana wrote:You did hear about the plan to increase economic development in Southern Mexico and the three Northern Central American nations in order to curb the flow of illegals. It will just require the well off nations of the world including the US to help when it comes to the money part. Program is expected to cost $10 Billion a year.

Read - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1SS298

Someone on a youtube video was once talking about that much of Central Americas economic problems could be solved if they just united economically. Instead, most of the nations try to go it by themselves. Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and even Mexico are thinking of building a dry canal which would cross from the Caribbean to the Pacific. The problem is that if all these nations did this, which would cost billions in construction, then the benefits from this would be diluted.

Honestly this is something we should be doing not building a fucking wall.

Also we should take AMLO up on his suggestion to decriminalize/legalize all drugs to end the drug war. Unfortunately the prison industry is too strong

Given the rampant corruption I think all the billions would disappear.
Really what they need is rule of law, and zero tolerance on corruption.

Ending the drug war would help, but is no silver bullet.
The cartels are quite diversified in their revenue sources.

Israeli Commonwealth wrote:

Thermodolia wrote:They are still human beings and as such should be treated with respect and not beaten or sexually assaulted because they are a prisoner


No it’s not. Prisons are rife with abuse, several guards regularly abuse their power.


Still doesn’t mean they can do whatever the fuck they want and they definitely shouldn’t be two different agencies


Ya no.


You’re not going to last here long

Is the cost guard part of the armed forces? Also cite a link that they do that

The Coast Guard is considered one of the five armed forces yes. Still has nothing to do with ICE and you definitely shouldn’t put them on a pedestal.

Honestly I’d like for the military to not be put on a pedestal as well, ya the discounts are nice but that’s not what I did it for.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-ri ... e-they-are
https://theintercept.com/2018/04/11/imm ... e-ice-dhs/
https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kzg ... nd-threats
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigr ... rs-n954781
https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-ri ... ble-abuses
https://theintercept.com/2018/03/04/som ... on-center/
https://www.aclu.org/other/words-prison ... use-prison
https://partners.vice.com/starz/starzpo ... on-system/
https://www.nsfogel.com/Articles/Inmate ... able.shtml
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/us/p ... abuse.html
https://abcnews.go.com/US/half-sexual-a ... d=21892170
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5zZvqFcUkj0
https://www.newsweek.com/prison-inmate- ... hts-723943

Novus America wrote:

Thermodolia wrote:Honestly this is something we should be doing not building a fucking wall.

Also we should take AMLO up on his suggestion to decriminalize/legalize all drugs to end the drug war. Unfortunately the prison industry is too strong

Given the rampant corruption I think all the billions would disappear.
Really what they need is rule of law, and zero tolerance on corruption.

Ending the drug war would help, but is no silver bullet.
The cartels are quite diversified in their revenue sources.

No it’s not the end all be all but it would kill a major source of their income and reduce the load on our prisons

Thermodolia wrote:

Novus America wrote:
Given the rampant corruption I think all the billions would disappear.
Really what they need is rule of law, and zero tolerance on corruption.

Ending the drug war would help, but is no silver bullet.
The cartels are quite diversified in their revenue sources.

No it’s not the end all be all but it would kill a major source of their income and reduce the load on our prisons

Well sure. We had less overcrowding in prisons (which makes abuse more likely) before the drug war started in 1970.

Though our pre 1970 Marijuana laws were a mess. Other drugs was fine.
Pre 1970 marijuana was actually legal, but the tax and regulatory system so cumbersome and poorly enforced almost nobody bothered to get it legally though drug arrests were extremely rare.

An exact return to 50s drug laws would be better than the present obviously but we should have a better marijuana regulatory and taxation system.

But still Mexico and Central America really need properly functioning and not completely corrupted governments. Getting them that is tricky because we cannot apply anti corruption laws to them.